Christianity is sooooo Illogical!

swdee

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Shadowseldil, thankyou for taking the time to reply to my post, I have a few points if I may.

Shadowseldil said:
Sacrifices and baptism do not bring forgiveness from sin.
That's what the bible makes it out to be, people went through a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (repentence means 'to turn around' from their sins, and it's obvious what forgiveness means) and then John told them to live good lives to keep in with their repentance. Could it not be any clearer?

Shadowseldil said:
John himself said that his baptism was nothing.
So what a waste of time that was then!

Shadowseldil said:
When did god apply this rule (to believe in Jesus to be saved)? Easy, it was at the very moment that Adam sinned.
Erm... no one knew about Jesus then!! Yes there was indeed no excuse for not believing in God for he reveals himself in nature (as mentioned in an earlier christian post). So that's all people had to do it seems, also God kept urging people to repent (turn away) from their sinful life and he would forgive them. Why wouldn't he, he's a just loving God, makes sense.
Verses stating God didn't want sacrifice:
Psalm 40:6
Psalm 51:16
Isaiah 1:11
Isaiah 1:16: wash, make yourselves cleam. Take your wrongdoing out of my sight. Cease doing evil. Learn to do good, search for justice, disipline the violent, be just to the orphan, plead for the widow.
Isaiah 7:21-28
Hosesa 8:13 They offer sacrifices to me because they are those who eat the meat, but Yahweh does not accept their sacrifices, for He is mindful of their sin and remembers their wickedness
Hosea 6:6 Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice

So Jesus came to do what?


Shadowseldil said:
how was Abraham saved? By sacrifices? By circumcision? No, it was by faith. Salvation has always been by faith in God for salvation. "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "
Something's wrong here.. these verses seem to imply that all God wants is faith and that trying to do what is right is meaningless. After all God's grace suposedly covers any sins. This is one of the biggest lies that stains the church today and is a very dangerous thing to believe. According to this, a christian can just go and do whatever sin they like, it doesn't matter. It is an excuse for laziness/complacency in the church where people just don't care whether they are leading righteous lives or not - they're going to heaven anyway so what does it matter!
Why does the bible continuously strive for people to turn away from their sinful lives and try to be righteous? Why all Paul's letters to the church teaching them about how to live more righteous lives? Why did Jesus say (in Matthew 25:31-46) that at the end of time he will separate the goats (those that did what was wrong) from the sheep (those who did what was right)? (notice that he didn't say he'd separate those that believe he existed from those that didn't!).
The verses you quoted obviously can't be taken the way you and many other christians have taken them because they clearly contradict most of the bible.
It would seem then that they may have meant something else or been mistranslated or (God forbid) been tampered with. After all, Paul commanded that no woman should speak in church for were inferior to men (1 Timothy 2:11-15, 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 and 1 Corinthians 11:2-16)! And Jesus said cut off your right hand if it causes you to sin!
We must read verses in context with the rest of what the bible's saying and allow the spirit of God (and common sense) as a guide.

I think I know the answers to all my questions (but I probably can't say here what I believe). I wanted to hear what christians had to say about them. It's good for christians to try and answer challenging questions as it is good practice for witnessing in the world.

God bless. :)
 
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Thank you for your reply, Swdee. I am glad you are actually interesed in this, even if it is just to argue. Let me comment about some things you have said. This is going to be long, but please read it all.
swdee said:
People went through a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin.
As I explained before, this phrase hinges on the word 'for'.
Merriam-webster's Dictionary said:
For:
1 a -- used as a function word to indicate purpose <a grant for studying medicine> b -- used as a function word to indicate an intended goal <left for home> <acted for the best> c -- used as a function word to indicate the object or recipient of a perception, desire, or activity <now for a good rest> <run for your life> <an eye for a bargain>

3 : because of <can't sleep for the heat>
Yes, 'for' could have the first meaning, and most likely 'c' by your definition. But looking at the Bible as a whole, this view would seem to contradict parts that say salvation is through Jesus alone. However, I believe that 'for' it this case means the third definition, 'because of'. The people were being baptized because of the forgiveness of sins, i.e. a public display. They were not baptized to receive forgiveness, but because they already had forgiveness and wanted to testify to their repentance. That is my take on the verse, and it fits with the rest of scripture.

swdee said:
Erm... no one knew about Jesus then!!
True, they did not know his name was Jesus. But they knew that one day God would make a provision for sin. It was in the persons' choice to believe God that God granted His gift to them. True, this was shown out by works, but it was not the works that gave salvation, it was only faith itself.
Let's take John the Baptist as an example. He had no idea at first who the Messiah was. He did not know that it was Jesus. But he still taught salvation through the Messiah, aka, Jesus.

John 1 said:
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Notice what John say about his mission in verse 31. He came so that Jesus could be manifest, not that baptism could be manifest. This just as a snippet for the earlier case.

Look at verses 31 and 33, John says that he DID NOT KNOW who the Messiah was, but God revealed it unto him. Yet he baptized. Therefore, if he did not know the Messiah, how could he baptize? Let us take this further. John was beheaded BEFORE Jesus died. Therefore, how could he believe on Jesus? Does this mean he was not saved? No, because Jesus calls him the greatest of prophets. How then was he saved? By works? No, because he himself said that Jesus took away the sins of the world(verse 29), and that his baptism was merely that of water. How then was he saved? The same way all believers have ever been saved, God's grace presented through faith. And faith alone. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)
It has never been by works and has always been by grace through faith(Which is often referred to as simply faith alone, and perhaps erroneously).

swdee said:
So Jesus came to do what?

Bible said:
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heberws 10:5
Wherefore when he(Christ) cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:9-10
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 10:17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
I think that about sums up what Jesus came to do.

swdee said:
Something's wrong here.. these verses seem to imply that all God wants is faith and that trying to do what is right is meaningless. After all God's grace suposedly covers any sins. This is one of the biggest lies that stains the church today and is a very dangerous thing to believe. According to this, a christian can just go and do whatever sin they like, it doesn't matter. It is an excuse for laziness/complacency in the church where people just don't care whether they are leading righteous lives or not - they're going to heaven anyway so what does it matter!
No offence meant, but it seems like you just called the Bible wrong. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's what it sounds like. But believe it or not, that's the way things are. At the moment of salvation, every sin is forgiven, past, present, and future. Yes, you can go out and live any way you want, and those sins will be forgiven. That's the freedom that God gives through salvation, and it is truly sad that some Christians choose to take this route. I feel a deep swell of pity for those poor fools who buy into that lie that it does not matter how you live because you are saved. Yes, they will always be saved, but they will also have the reward for their actions. "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." So yes, a man can accept God's gift and live however he wants and still be saved from the penalty of those sins, STOP! GET BACK HERE! I'M NOT FINISHED! Read this next part before you go out to party!
Romans 6 said:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans six addresses this VERY issue! Yes, we are freed from the penalty of sin, but we are also freed from the power of sin. Why then should we place ourselves back into the bondage of sin and be a servant to it? We are dead to sin, we are free from it, we are no longer bound to it as we were with the old man. Yes, the struggle is still there, but God has given us the power to gain victory where under the old man it was impossible. Do you think God wants us to live reprobate lives? God forbid! Yet He gives us the freedom to make that choice. He wants us to serve out of love, not out of force because we have to. The reason why all of the Bible tells us to live righteous lives is because GOD WANTS US TO LIVE RIGHTEOUS LIVES! But that does not mean that God is going to force us to live righteous lives by dangling our souls over hell and saying "Obey me or down you go!" How is that love? No, God through grace and love gives his gift through faith and faith alone. Then He lets us, through love, make our own choices, desiring that we would choose Him.
Read chapters 7 and 8 for more detail on this whole 'dead to sin, alive to grace' issue.

swdee said:
It would seem then that they may have meant something else or been mistranslated or (God forbid) been tampered with.

Not going to happen. God's word mean too much to Him for Him to allow something like that to happen. But it is possible that we could misunderstand what God is saying, like taking a verse out of context. We are human, after all. For example:

swdee said:
After all, Paul commanded that no woman should speak in church for were inferior to men (1 Timothy 2:11-15, 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 and 1 Corinthians 11:2-16)! And Jesus said cut off your right hand if it causes you to sin!

These are very good examples of verses often taken out of context by sinful man(in general, I'm not trying to narrow this onto you). This post is already long enough, so I will not bother to expound on what those verses are really talking about. But know that, yes, the way your are presenting them is out of context.
(I was just rereading this, and I noticed something. In that first sentence, you used 'for' to mean 'because of'. Thanks!)

swdee said:
We must read verses in context with the rest of what the Bible's saying and allow the spirit of God (and common sense) as a guide.
You know, I think I might have said that before. If nothing else, we are agreed on this point.

I hope I have well expounded on the questions you had. And I pray I have been a help to you and to anyone who is reading this. Thank you for your valueable time to read this.

Prayerfully yours,
Shadow's Eldil
 
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bloodofthelamb12

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Forgive me if I address the points you raise one at a time; and please, friend, listen to the Scripture I post without a presumptive heart or closed mind...

Firstly, to the role of John:
"And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying, 'Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.' ...Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins."
(Mat 3:1-2...5-6)

Assuming that you meant John the Baptist, let me ask you this: where is John baptizing them into the kingdom of Heaven? Answer: he wasn't. You seem to have misunderstood John's purpose while he still lived on earth; he was not meant to bring men a means by which to be saved, but to prepare their hearts to meet the One who would. For as it is written, "The voice of one that crieth, Prepare ye in the wilderness the way of Jehovah; make level in the desert a highway for our God." (Isa 40:3) Think of John not as the fire or even its initial spark; instead, think of him as the long drought that made the wood that much more willing to embrace the flames.


Secondly, to the role of Baptism, today:
"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Mat 28:19)

Friend, baptism is not done for our salvation; rather, it is a Christian's very first step towards becoming a disciple, or student, of Jesus. For though John's baptism was for the confession and repentance from sin, a believer who shares in Christ's baptism does so as a pledge to the Savior. Water baptism is meant to be a Christian heart's way of saying, "I am here, now, Jesus; but I will go wherever You lead me."

Thirdly, as to the importance of Christ's death:
You must remember, all those that John baptized in water were not partakers of Christ's New Covenant salvation by grace, but of the Old Covenant's salvation by righteous and absolute purity. Those whom John baptized were no more righteous or redeemed coming up from the water than when when they'd gone under; they were simply that much more aware of their complete inadequacy to meet the Old Covenant's demands. This is why they were "baptized of him...confessing their sins". They were simply humbling themselves before the Almighty, confessing to themselves that yes, they were wholly dependent on God's coming salvation and desperately in need of the coming deliverance from sin.

Being thus aware of their sin, what hope did those lost sons of Abraham have? One which John himself offered in saying, "...the kingdom of heaven is at hand...". Christ came so that the eternal Kingdom of Heaven might be established in the hearts of all future generations of mortal man. He who was without sin died, so that through him sinners might be saved; and He who was perfect even in death, was raised from His grave alive, that through His resurrection those whom he had saved might have hope for their own resurrection as well.

Christianity is not illogical; of this, I am certain. For with Christianity, everything withstands the test of reason. God gave a single commandment to Adam; Adam rebelled against God's command, and was thus indebted to His Maker; Adam had nothing to offer God besides that which was God's already, so ultimately he lost the most valuable thing of God's which he possesed- his very life; God loved Adam inspite of his rebellion and by the abundance of His lovingkindness, grace and mercy, God made Himself to become Adam's dues. A debt once existed which divided creation from creator; the creator, still loving that which he made, paid the debt himself that no debt could be retained; and thus was the creation saved.

Fourthly, the dispossession of the lost of this world;
"And he said unto them, Wheresoever ye enter into a house, there abide till ye depart thence. And whatsoever place shall not receive you, and they hear you not, as ye go forth thence, shake off the dust that is under your feet for a testimony unto them." (Mar 6:10-11)

Friend, I would like to point this specific verse out to you, and ask you to notice one of the things it's missing. Condemnation of the ignorant; of those who have never heard of Christ's salvation. I warn you of this fact, sir; Those whom God has so blessed as to allow them to hear the message of the salvation which he has provided, shall be held to special account on the day of God's wrath. But apart from this warning, I would cite another passage, if you still possess a willing eye;

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law..." (Rom 2:12)

Friend, a man is not condemned for rejecting the Gospel of salvation; rather, he is by his very nature condemned as guilty of sin. Those who die apart from the law, be it the Law of Moses or the Law of Grace, will be judged apart from it. Lost souls are not condemned for their lack of Christ, but the presence of wickedness anyplace in their lives. Christ provided for His own defense regarding this matter, saying "For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." (Joh 12:47) You have mistakenly believed that once Christ died and was raised, anyone that died without even hearing of him would be condemned because they hadn't heard of him. No; those poor, lost souls have been condemned because no man lives up to the ideals he has set in his heart for others to obey.

Seriously, think about it: how do you react when someone lies to you about something really important? Indignant; just like everyone else. And yet let me ask you this; have you ever lied to anyone else? Congratulations, your own heart condemns you. I pose to you the same questions Paul gave the early Church; "Thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest 'A man should not steal,' dost thou steal? Thou that sayest, 'A man should not commit adultery,' dost thou commit adultery? Thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?" (Rom 2:21) All of us know what is and is not right; this knowledge is shown in that we all expect the same basic kindnesses from one another. Yet not one of us lives up to those "basic kindnesses" at all times; instead we try to excuse ourselves by justifying our misbehavior. There is only one sort of behavior that a man ever justifies to himself, however; behavior that violates his own moral code.

Before Christ came, all the world was bound to a single destiny; a destiny which God's righteousness judgment demanded as payment for an unrepayable debt. But God, being a Lord of Love and Grace as well as Righteousness, was not content to allow all of the world to be condemned, as was deserved. "But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him." (Joh 3:16-17)

Friend, it is my sincere hope and my honest prayer that the Lord of Glory will show you the heights of His righteousness and the depths of His love; both through the revelation of Scripture to your heart and the loving actions of those Saints, redeemed of Christ, that you meet throughout your lifetime. Knowing that "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him," I bid you farewell.

a servant of Christ,
Caleb​
 
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swdee

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Thanks for your replies, sorry for going on about a few subjects on my mind.
I must bring up one last point:

Shadowseldil said:
At the moment of salvation, every sin is forgiven, past, present, and future. Yes, you can go out and live any way you want, and those sins will be forgiven.

So a christian can go and sleep around and kill people and it doesn't matter!!!???
I wish this thread was deleted now because a christian reading what you have said may lead them into thinking it's ok to live a sinfull life.

Please people this is just wrong and it saddens me to find such dangerous words on this christian forum written by christians.

A good answer to Shadowseldil is

bloodofthelamb12 said:
Knowing that "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him,"


Now I sign off, God bless.
 
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bloodofthelamb12

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Shadowseldil, your interpretation of Scripture is sort of...frightening.

I would direct your attention to 1 John, chapter 3, from which I will you several verses, beginning with the first.

"Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this cause the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is." (1 John 3:1-2)

As Christians, this is the hope our Father in heaven has given us; that we will one day become his children, having laid our eyes upon the living, breathing Christ.

"And every one that hath this hope set on him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1Jo 3:3)

As Christians, this is the goal of our lives; to redraw ourselves as near unto the image Christ as our sinful boundries will permit. By its very nature, God's promise drives us to try and become what we will be; pure and holy, as was Christ. As Christians, we are both called toward and given a higher standard for all that we should be. For Christ was perfect, and ultimately Christ-like is what we shall be. It is our mission here on earth to become as near to His likeness as possible, through the imitation of His love, through prayer, and through actions meant to show His love to others.
 
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I am sorry that you misunderstood my point, but you have also missed the truth.

It is truth that a Christian can live any way they want after they are saved.

BUT, does God want Christians to sin? Answer:

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would a perfect, HOLY God want people to sin? He does not! Yet, because salvation is an act of love and NOT OF LOGIC, God allows us to make our own choices, even though He knows that we may choose against Him. It is the same situation as when God created Adam. Did God want Adam to sin and eat the fruit? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!! Yet God, through love, allowed Adam to choose. But, there was a consequence to Adam&#8217;s sin! IT IS THE SAME FOR CHRISTIANS!! You missed my one scripture quote, I think because I cannot remember the reference. Here it is again:



&#8220;Be not deceived, God is not mocked; whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.&#8221;



What is the point? That God still judges sin and sinners, even though He has already forgiven them both. That is my point. It DOES matter what a Christian does after salvation because God is still God. It matters what the unsaved do, because God is still God. BUT, actions have no effect on salvation!! You remain saved no matter what you do! Yes, Judgment will come, but you will still be saved!



Need proof? Here it is:



John 10:28-29 said:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.





Here then is the logical question? Who is not a man? Can I, a man, do something to forfeit my salvation? According to verse 29, ABSOLUTELY NOT!! No man, including myself, can take me from the Father&#8217;s hand once God has placed me in it, which He does as a result of my faith in Him.



I hope and pray I have answer your questions and resolved any confusion as to my position.

Prayerfully yours,

Shadow&#8217;s Eldil
 
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coreXian

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No man can take us away from God's love. God does, however, give man the choice to leave on his own. Once we are part of God's family, we are not mandantory heirs to it's inheritance. It is still our choice. We can choose to forsake our birthrights. As an example, look at Laodicea (SP?). Even being lukewarm and not doing anything is enough to end that relationship! The letters to the various churches in the NT are full of warnings to be careful and to finish the race. Why bother if it's "once saved, always saved, no matter what"?
 
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finally someone gets it Nice replys guys keep up the good work I also have a theory though its like this what now days are logical? things you can see , touch, and feel right.....wrong christianity is called a faith for a reason. It is called a faith because faith is far more then seeing and just believing you have to know and trust thaat god is real and that he will answer your prayers. As for word travel, practically everyone of that day and age knew about jesus. I know what you are thinking how could one man be so well known.well he wasn't alone he had followers all over the place spreading the word of the messaih. If you didn't thinkthere was a god you wouldn't have made the post so i know you must be thinking it over. You will be in my prayers bod bless.
 
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prestonw

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swdee said:
So a christian can go and sleep around and kill people and it doesn't matter!!!???

This question has been brought up before and I will give a response that I have given many times. Eternal life, which is what is granted from the belief in Christ, is not a clean slate. In the end, everyone will be held accountable for their works (this is separate from sin). Christ's ministry was two-fold, believe in me and love God (do not sin), and play well with others (perform good works). Just because you are granted eternal life, doesn't mean everything will be happy and wonderful. Your works will determine your place and if you continue to do bad works while alive, you may be cleaning heavenly toilets for eternity.

Preston
 
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Building off of what Preston has said, once you place your faith in God, God does not let you take yourself out of his hand(thank goodness). But there will be consequences to your action if you go away from God. All the wood, hay, and stubble will be burned away at the judgment seat of Christ.
Laodicea, the luke-warm church, was not in danger of losing salvation. But, what God was saying was that their state of non-commitment made him, if I may, sick to his stomach. It was a metaphor the Laodiceans would have understood.(Do some research if you do not know why.) He was saying that they were worthless to him and they would be cast away, both from his blessing and from their effectiveness. This is the reason that Christ is pictured outside of the church, because the church of Laodicea is no longer living in Him and His power, not because they would lose there salvation.
I have read the Bible through several times, yet I am not aware of anytime in which the different churches are told to do good in order to keep their salvation, or that they could lose their salvation by turning from God. If you could point these out to me, I would be glad to review it.
 
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Faith In God

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Shadowseldil said:
Building off of what Preston has said, once you place your faith in God, God does not let you take yourself out of his hand(thank goodness).
careful...
But there will be consequences to your action if you go away from God. All the wood, hay, and stubble will be burned away at the judgment seat of Christ.
Laodicea, the luke-warm church, was not in danger of losing salvation. But, what God was saying was that their state of non-commitment made him, if I may, sick to his stomach. It was a metaphor the Laodiceans would have understood.(Do some research if you do not know why.) He was saying that they were worthless to him and they would be cast away, both from his blessing and from their effectiveness. This is the reason that Christ is pictured outside of the church, because the church of Laodicea is no longer living in Him and His power, not because they would lose there salvation.
What are you talking about? Those that are not in Christ are in sin and will be judged according to their works, by which no man will be justified. "To him who overcomes will be given the crown of eternal life." (emphasis added); it will be given to no other. Those who don't overcome the world (of which Laodacea was part) will not be given the crown. The bible does speak of false conversion, people.
I have read the Bible through several times, yet I am not aware of anytime in which the different churches are told to do good in order to keep their salvation, or that they could lose their salvation by turning from God. If you could point these out to me, I would be glad to review it.
What you have just read. Those letters all say that those churches needed to repent. Jesus said that anyone who puts his hand to the plough and even looks back is not fit for the kingdom.
 
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First things first:
butxifxnot said:
What are you talking about? Those that are not in Christ are in sin and will be judged according to their works, by which no man will be justified. "To him who overcomes will be given the crown of eternal life." (emphasis added); it will be given to no other. Those who don't overcome the world (of which Laodacea was part) will not be given the crown. The bible does speak of false conversion, people.
Have you actually read the first three chapters of Rev.? That is not one of the "overcomeths"! Really, if you are going to refute me, at least make certain you have your facts straight! But as to those who overcometh, there are two theories, and I think both are valid.
1)This is to those who overcome the specific problem listed, leaving your first love, standing true in persecution, rejecting worldliness, ect. (If you really want the whole list, PM me and I will give you a small bit of my study on this.)
2) A Christian is one who overcomes the world, therefore, these statements are an encouragement to the churches to remind them of what God has done for them, and a challenge to live for God because of what He has done.

I favor the first one, but I see no objections to the second. If you are a Christian, you can ask me once we get to heaven which is right. If you are not, God wants you to become one, so please do. (You can PM me for more info on that as well)

However, those churches were God's churches. They were already in Christ. There is a difference between being cast away from God's blessing and being cast away from God. Once you are placed in Christ, baptized into him, you cannot be taken out, even by yourself.

Roman 8:38-39 said:
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is written to Christians, to believers, not to unbelievers, not to the unsaved. Here it says that nothing can separate us from the love of God through Jesus Christ. Think a little. What is the love of God through Jesus? It is salvation.

Let us then look at works and what the Bible says of them:
Gal. 2:16-21 said:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This passage says that if we try to add works to grace, Christ then died in vain. To say that one must work to gain salvation, or to keep salvation, you make the blood of Christ of no effect. Those are not my words; that is what the Bible says. In fact, the Bible says that we(or at least Paul) are dead to the law(v. 19), and if we are dead to the law, it is no effect to us, except to our mortal bodies, our 'flesh', which are still under the law of sin.
The point of this passage is to show that obedience cannot bring salvation, and in fact, if we try to justify ourselves by works, we have sinned by taking the work of Christ in vain.

James 2:1ff said:
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
..
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
..
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now, at first, it seems that I have contradicted myself by including this, but I intend to use this passage to prove my point.
Consider verse one, I included it for an important reason. Note the first two words: My Brethren. This passage is written to James' brethren, to believers, not to unbelievers. Now, keeping that in mind, why is James telling believers that their faith is dead without works. It is because, as a dead man, faith without works can do nothing to promote the work of Christ, and they will not experience the full Christian life.
Also, it is a reminder that simple faith is not enough; it must be faith in Christ, which will tend to action. Look at verse 12. Sounds a bit like Romans 1 to me(Man will be judged by his own laws, of which he is guilty.) Remember, James is speaking to believers, not to "they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." He then says that faith cannot save(v. 14). Look at v. 19. It is not just faith in God, it is faith in the sin-cleansing blood of Christ.
Works, then, are the show, the evidence, and it makes faith alive or 'perfect', not stagnant and dead. This is a challenge for the saved to work for Christ, not because they have to in order to stay in salvation, but to stay alive in the faith. The 'faith' must be faith in Christ's completed work, which will naturally tend to works, which are a show of true faith.

However, can you have someone who works for God but is not saved? Absolutely! Can you have someone who is saved, but lives for the world? Absolutely! The pharisees are an example of the first(They did the actions without the heart.), and the prodigal son is an example of the second(He went away from his father, but he was still a son.)

This is to all those unbelievers that may be reading this:
Salvation is not earned, it is given by God.
Romans 6:23 said:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It is a gift! No works required for salvation. Jesus Christ has paid the debt of sin for you! As he cried on the cross, "It is finished." The work of salvation is done, you have only to confess your need of His salvation to Him, and believe in your heart that Jesus did all he said he did. God promises that if you trust in Him, you will have eternal life in heaven with Him. That is all there is too it. God does not want salvation to be difficult; he wants people to come to Him. If you have any questions, send me a private message and I will happily get back to you.

Thank you again for bearing through another long post.
Prayerfully yours,
Shadow's Eldil
 
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die2live

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swdee said:
If John was showing the way to salvation through baptism, then what was the need for Jesus to do what he is said to have done? Surley people could have just carried on being baptised.
And why have baptism nowadays if Jesus' salvation was the ultimate?

You say that since the death and resurrection of Jesus, anyone who doesn't believe in him will go to hell.... erm... is it just me or is that completely insane!!???
News travelled very slowly in those days so it could take many years before everyone in the world heard about it, so in the meantime God said 'It's tuff luck, you weren't living in close proximity to that event so you're going to hell!!!'

John was preparing the way, not showing it. Jesus came to show and to baptize with the Holy Spirit, which is what really saves people. John was merely preparing the people for Jesus' coming and using baptism as a way to explain it.
Romans 1:20 says that creation itself testifies to God. God has revealed himself through more than just other people. He reveals himself through everything. THerefore, everyone has a chance to believe. I have no doubt that there have been and continue to be many people who become Christians without ever hearing about the Bible directly. God uses His written word with most people and this is the best method for studying purposes. But for many people who don't need to study, but just need to be saved, He uses creation to speak to those people and many are saved. THey don't actually have to call Jesus by his name in order to put their trust in him. After all, he was actually called Yeshua and many different languages have different names for him. The actual combination of vowels and consonants really don't matter. All they need is to put their trust in Him who they know through His creation.
 
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Shadowseldil said:
Have you actually read the first three chapters of Rev.? That is not one of the "overcomeths"! Really, if you are going to refute me, at least make certain you have your facts straight!

I feel I owe you an apology, butxifxnot. I was a bit short with you, and I should not have been. I am sorry, and I will try to be more patient in the future.
 
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