UPDATE - Baby Dedication / Upset with Pastor

bellatori

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Thank you to all who replied to my post last week. I have spent the last few days with my finacee thinking things over, praying, and reading the word. Today I feel at peace with our family situation and prepared to meet with our Pastor to discuss the situation.

I'm sure many of you our questioning how I could feel at peace with our family situation given that we are not "married", have conceived two wonderful children, and continue to live together. And to you I must ask, "What is the definition of marriage??" The answer to this question has lifted my burden and raised my spirit.

In Ephesians 5:31-33 we are told that marriage has three aspects
1. A man leaves his mother and father
2. He takes a woman as his wife
3. The two are untied as one

In The Song of Solomon the marriage is referred to as a union between a man and a woman in which the two love one another unconditionally and without acceptions.

The Lord knows my heart and the heart of my fiance and knows these things to be true of us and our relationship. We may not have complied with man made laws established in America by the Puritians to have a ceremnoy and obtain a license, but we are married in spirit, at heart, and in the eyes of God as defined by the bible.

At this point my concern is for our Pastor. We love him dearly and understand why he may have objection. I pray that when we meet with him tonight we will be able to shed some light on his perspective. After all, he is human and should not be expected to be perfect. I have forgiven him and am eager to resolve this issue. It has helped me to grow stronger in my faith and in my relationship with Christ as well as with my finace. And I have faith that when we speak to our pastor he to will be enlightened as we were. Hopefully you all will be too.

Family in Christ
 

joyousliving

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bellatori said:
Thank you to all who replied to my post last week. I have spent the last few days with my finacee thinking things over, praying, and reading the word. Today I feel at peace with our family situation and prepared to meet with our Pastor to discuss the situation.

I'm sure many of you our questioning how I could feel at peace with our family situation given that we are not "married", have conceived two wonderful children, and continue to live together. And to you I must ask, "What is the definition of marriage??" The answer to this question has lifted my burden and raised my spirit.

In Ephesians 5:31-33 we are told that marriage has three aspects
1. A man leaves his mother and father
2. He takes a woman as his wife
3. The two are untied as one

In The Song of Solomon the marriage is referred to as a union between a man and a woman in which the two love one another unconditionally and without acceptions.

The Lord knows my heart and the heart of my fiance and knows these things to be true of us and our relationship. We may not have complied with man made laws established in America by the Puritians to have a ceremnoy and obtain a license, but we are married in spirit, at heart, and in the eyes of God as defined by the bible.

At this point my concern is for our Pastor. We love him dearly and understand why he may have objection. I pray that when we meet with him tonight we will be able to shed some light on his perspective. After all, he is human and should not be expected to be perfect. I have forgiven him and am eager to resolve this issue. It has helped me to grow stronger in my faith and in my relationship with Christ as well as with my finace. And I have faith that when we speak to our pastor he to will be enlightened as we were. Hopefully you all will be too.

Family in Christ
Even in the bible a husband and wife had a marriage ceremony. Jesus' first miracle took place at one such event. We customarily ask people to take vows before God and witnesses as evidence of their intent to stay together as a family for the rest of their lives. The license isn't the thing that makes you married, I agree

Marriage is a contract. What you are saying is that while you have done nothing publically to declare your intention to be tied together as husband and wife that we should over look that. If the ceremony doesn't mean anything then why wait until 10/05? You still have not addressed the question regarding why it is that you cannot marry now.

I used this same excuse to justify living with my husband for a time. I am not being judgmental, I am telling you that every day you let this go you are committing a willful sin against God. I am married to this man now, but that doesn't mean that my sin in living with him before we were married is erased. It has been forgiven, but there are consequences. We have God's law not as punishment, but because God's law is perfect. It is what is best for us.

You are putting what you want ahead of your testimony as a Christian. You claim to be a Christian and talk about your desire to be obedient to God's Word, yet you are clearly rationalizing a situation that you are not willing to bring into obedience.

You are putting what you want ahead of the reputation of your pastor and your church. Please acknowledge that you understand that the baby dedication involves acknowledging your devotion and commitment to walk as a Christian and to raise this child in a Christian home. How is the pastor going to do that for you while his congregation sits there and thinks about the fact that you and your boyfriend are not married?

You are missing out on a wonderful opportunity to have God show you how He can bless His children when they choose to obey Him. I know it isn't what you pictured. It is His timing not yours. It is inconvenient, but I can assure you from painful experience that it is the best way.

I pray that you and your boyfriend are willing as young Christians to recognize the authority of your pastor and of God's Word.
 
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LiberatedChick

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joyousliving said:
Even in the bible a husband and wife had a marriage ceremony. Jesus' first miracle took place at one such event.
I completely agree. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding cermony in Cana (John 2:1-11).

At this point my concern is for our Pastor. We love him dearly and understand why he may have objection. I pray that when we meet with him tonight we will be able to shed some light on his perspective. After all, he is human and should not be expected to be perfect. I have forgiven him and am eager to resolve this issue. It has helped me to grow stronger in my faith and in my relationship with Christ as well as with my finace. And I have faith that when we speak to our pastor he to will be enlightened as we were. Hopefully you all will be too.
Also this bit really bugs me. You seem to think you know more than your pastor. Excuse me but teaching from the bible is his job don't you think he should know it better than you do? Yes, he is not perfect, none of us are but just like people expect school teachers to know what they're teaching you'd expect a pastor to know the bible better than most of us.
 
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Avaya

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joyousliving said:
You are putting what you want ahead of the reputation of your pastor and your church. Please acknowledge that you understand that the baby dedication involves acknowledging your devotion and commitment to walk as a Christian and to raise this child in a Christian home. How is the pastor going to do that for you while his congregation sits there and thinks about the fact that you and your boyfriend are not married?

You are missing out on a wonderful opportunity to have God show you how He can bless His children when they choose to obey Him. I know it isn't what you pictured. It is His timing not yours. It is inconvenient, but I can assure you from painful experience that it is the best way.

I pray that you and your boyfriend are willing as young Christians to recognize the authority of your pastor and of God's Word.
Yes.
 
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bellatori

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Yes, the bible does reference instances in which a wedding ceremony was held, but it does not command it as it does the act of marriage. What ceremony was held for Adam and Eve? None, but were they not husband and wife joined in marriage? Ofcourse they were. If a couple chooses to elope and have no celebration, only an "I do" in front of the JOP are they not married? In the eyes of the state they would be married. But if a celebration is required....

I think you need to ponder both sides of the equation, not just the one that supports your view.

I do not feel that I am more knowledgable than my pastor by any means, but I do feel that in this instance he is wrong. I also think it is very easy for a Pastor to struggle to differentiate between God's law and mans law and I can see where ritual can add to that confusion.

I encourage all of you nay sayers to check out this thread that I ran across. The psoter makes a valid point.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1172184-marriage.html

It is unfortunate that so many feel that we must uphold mans law and that Gods law is not enough.
 
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LiberatedChick

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A celebration is not required, a ceremony is. Whether that be a ceremony in a church or a civil ceremony doesn't matter imo as God is everywhere. The marriage ceremony involves certain legally binding sentences which need to be witnessed in front of others before signing a marriage certificate. You don't need to have a fancy wedding or a reception, you could get married in jeans and a t-shirt if you so wished however the marriage ceremony is still important. Even if you don't think it's something found within Gods law we must still uphold mans law. We are told to follow the law of God and the law of the land we live in.

Ezra 7 said:
Whoever does not obey the law of your God and the law of the king must surely be punished by death, banishment, confiscation of property, or imprisonment.
Romans 13:1-2 said:
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
As mans law requires a ceremony involving the saying of certain words for us to be married/signing of a certificate then that is what we must do.
 
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HisFireFly

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I have delayed posting any comments here, for I do not wish to condemn or offend anyone, but rather spread the love of our LORD and Savior CHRIST JESUS.

But in these days when the entire concept of GOD'S plan for marriage is being challenged in the courts I believe that we, as HIS people must stand up and be counted.

I don't doubt that you feel united in the sight of GOD, and I bless your commitment to each other. I just feel uneasy about your hesitation to become legally wed. Perhaps it is the law of men, but GOD created us and as stated in a previous post, commanded us to respect and obey those in authority over us.

I used to make the same claims as you are making now, that a ceremony and a certificate were meaningless. Then I met JESUS and grew in faith, and met a man I could devote myself to freely and without restraint, and marriage suddenly made perfect sense. I wanted the world to know. I was proud to declare our love to the world! There are untold blessings awating those who are obedient to the ways of our LORD, and I pray you are able to prove that for yourself. HE wants to bless you. HE wants to give you more. HE's waiting..........

love, in HIM,

HisFireFly
 
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Singin4Him

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Maybe I misunderstood you but from what I read it seems like you do not feel you're living in sin because you're married in God's eyes even though you haven't legally been married whether it be a ceremony or a justice of the peace wedding. Do you not agree with God instructing us to obey the laws of the land? In this land you are not legally married until you are married by a minister or a judge. I don't see how that can be justified.
 
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rogsr

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Hello all,

Many of you here are being very mean, almost cruel. It is like many of you are looking for any excuse to condemn this young lady and her family. Not every family unit is formed the same or looks the same. You should stop reveling in your perfected righteousness and offer some well thought out advice to this young lady, without making it sound like stones whizzing through the air.

I believe that wedding ceremonies are nice and proper, but not required. For, St. Paul taught the Romans in his epistle to them that, "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" Rom 4: 4,5. So, it is not the visable acts of piety which justify us, such as circumcision or wedding ceremonies, but rather the faith that we have in our hearts for God: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Paul also taught this to the Romans: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin....all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [but are now] justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3: 20,23,24. By the deeds of the law-the rituals of the law-no flesh will be justified, but rather only through God's grace in the gift of faith. So, if the rituals of the law do not justify the flesh of one how can it justify the flesh of two in marriage? It cannot. "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we[including the young lady and her family] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1.

-Peace-
 
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heartnsoul

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I totally understand you and your fiancee's thinking about marriage. While I agee it is true that marriage is more of the *commitment* in the heart, you need to remember that reality is-- we still live in a world of man-made laws. That's reality. So, like any other law that is not obeyed, there are consequences. Example: Speed limit is 55, you drive 70, you will get a ticket and pay fines, true? Likewise, if you do not get married, then there will also be consequences. Perhaps your pastor not wanting to do the baby dedication is a consequence? After all, your pastor and most people are living in the real world as we know it. So please forgive me for saying this and I hope you don't take this the wrong way.

I don't doubt that you and your fiancee are truly married in your hearts. I believe the commitment is there in both of your hearts. However, I suspect there will be consequences for not following man-made laws. There was a reason why man made law to begin with...just like there are speeding laws and other laws, true? So, I have a feeling that your pastor will be one of many examples of consequences that will result of not following the law.

Again, let me say I think it's wonderful that you and your fiancee are committed to each other. I pray that you both reconsider your decision to live in this world by following the laws to avoid the painful obstacles that may come your way from the rest of the world who is following the laws. After all, we are living in a world that is made up of laws. All the laws may not make 100% sense all the time, but it is reality. As long as you live in this world, it may be in your best interest to comply with the laws to maintain peace and happiness with the rest of the world around you. :angel:
 
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I agree with many of the comments made here - esp singing for hims.

I used to be in a relationship with a man and my thinking was similar about not needing the ceremony. We even prayed together and thought that was 'good enough' to be married in God's sight and that we could carry on sleeping together. I now look back and realise I was only trying to justify my actions and it was an excuse to keep on sleeping with this man. It was a long time before I came though this and even now there are consequences of my actions I still have to deal with. Mnay people, including myself, suffered because of this.

If this man is really the right one then why not marry sooner?
 
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joyousliving

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rogsr said:
Hello all,

Many of you here are being very mean, almost cruel. It is like many of you are looking for any excuse to condemn this young lady and her family. Not every family unit is formed the same or looks the same. You should stop reveling in your perfected righteousness and offer some well thought out advice to this young lady, without making it sound like stones whizzing through the air.

I believe that wedding ceremonies are nice and proper, but not required. For, St. Paul taught the Romans in his epistle to them that, "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" Rom 4: 4,5. So, it is not the visable acts of piety which justify us, such as circumcision or wedding ceremonies, but rather the faith that we have in our hearts for God: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Paul also taught this to the Romans: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin....all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [but are now] justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3: 20,23,24. By the deeds of the law-the rituals of the law-no flesh will be justified, but rather only through God's grace in the gift of faith. So, if the rituals of the law do not justify the flesh of one how can it justify the flesh of two in marriage? It cannot. "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we[including the young lady and her family] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1.

-Peace-
Rogsr....you believe love means we tell people what they want to hear? I am not being cruel here. I am praying that God uses the advice that bellatori has been given here to see the truth.

Where is the contract between these two people? True in the bible days there was no marriage license. There was an agreement between the parents of the betrothed. There is only their verbal pledge to each other without benefit of clergy. That does not make a marriage. Even with the paper it is hard work. How much easier is it to split up without a formal contract?

If they are truly dedicated to each other what is the harm in having a very small ceremony with the pastor and immediately family as witnesses? They can have the big princess for the day ceremony next October.

I agree with the other poster who is coming from personal experience. It is a common rationalization to say that we are married in our hearts the paper is no big deal. If the paper isn't a big deal then what's the hold up?

We receive teaching from God in 3 ways. Scripture, godly counsel and the Holy Spirit. Scripture says that children should be raised in Christian homes by married couples. Scripture tells us to obey the laws of man. The godly counsel here has told her to deal with the marriage issue. Her pastor is telling them the same thing. Is it possible that God is contradicting Himself by testifying to them that they are not sinning?

I think not.
 
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rogsr

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Rogsr....you believe love means we tell people what they want to hear? I am not being cruel here.

This itself is a cruel statement. You are already committing a logical fallacy-ad hominem-which is to insult or slander someones beliefs or statements. When did I make such a statement as the one you accuse me of in you vicious opening line? No where. Therefore I have no reason to even consider the remaining members of your argument, as they are branches springing from a false truck. However, for the sake of those that may find solace in the words of someone with caring, I will thoughfully contend with the statements you have made against me.

Where is the contract between these two people? True in the bible days there was no marriage license. There was an agreement between the parents of the betrothed. There is only their verbal pledge to each other without benefit of clergy. That does not make a marriage. Even with the paper it is hard work. How much easier is it to split up without a formal contract?

Are not our covenants with God pledged in our hearts? Of course they are; where else would they be? Therefore all true pledges are pledged in the heart.

True, in the "bible days" there were no marriage licenses. That is because they are not needed, especially in the context of the spiritual union of two individuals. If they left one another without good reason would they not have the same God to answer to as those who had to file paper work? Of coarse. So the paperwork is a man made legality. What does a spiritual dedication have to do with a man made legality such as this? Nothing at all.

Also, regardless of the marital status of the childs parents is not the dedication for the child? So, to deny the dedication is to deny the child.


Back in the "bible days" a father also payed a dowry as compensation for taking his daughter in matrimony. Is a marriage false without the fulfillment of this ancient tradition? Of coarse not. New wine goes into new wine skins.

If you have ever been in love then you should know how hard it is leave someone. And if you grew to dispise them, then you should also know that no clergyman on earth could stop you from leaving. The paper work makes no difference. Also, I knew a woman that stayed with a brutally abusive man for decades because she was afraid of the religious consequences of leaving. What do you think about her situation?

I'm sorry but I do not have the time that I wish to spend on this post, but perhaps we could pick this up a little later.

I will say this though: The thing that seperates Christians like you and I is that I and my bretheren believe that faith exists wholly in the heart, that faith is the true work of love, and that love is the fulfillment of the law-love without rite.

-Peace-
 
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rogsr

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I have read your thread and :confused:I only have one question why are you waiting untill Oct to get married?

Maybe they are planning a wedding, like normal people. Not everyone wants to run off to the courthouse. Some people believe that there is not difference in waiting.

I understand your concern but I must pose a question: Who are we to judge another's servant? The Father's will be done, correct? So, it is God's will that these young people are unmarried at this point in time. So, to challenge them is to challenge to will of God.

If we have faith we should judge nothing, niether man nor circumstance, for God has providence in all things considered.

Peace-
 
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LiberatedChick

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rogsr said:

So the paperwork is a man made legality. What does a spiritual dedication have to do with a man made legality such as this? Nothing at all.

This is where I think you are wrong. Please refer to my earlier post quoting how the bible teaches that we are to follow the laws of the land that we live in. If the laws of the land state that we need a ceremony to state certains things in front of witnesses and then sign a certificate in front of witnesses in order for us to be married then that is what imo we must do. Over in the UK you can't just change your name to Mrs. B and go around saying I'm married. Can't just have any old ceremony and say "hey now I'm married" and likewise can't forget having a ceremony altogether and just say "We're married". It doesn't work like that, to be treated as a married couple my husband and I had to get married. No other way around it because if you want to be Mr and Mrs B you need that certificate...no one besides yourselves will think of you as married without it. People can argue that it's not right until they're blue in the face it won't change the facts. I hardly think we're being mean and cruel either....the people here didn't write the Bible or the laws of the land we're just repeating them.
 
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LiberatedChick

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rogsr said:

Also, regardless of the marital status of the childs parents is not the dedication for the child? So, to deny the dedication is to deny the child.

A child baptism in the Church of England requires the following statements to be made...

During the service, you will be asked to make the following declarations:
Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?

Parents and godparents: I reject them.

Do you renounce the deceit and corruption of evil?

Parents and godparents: I renounce them.

Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?

Parents and godparents: I repent of them.

Do you turn to Christ as Saviour?

Parents and godparents: I turn to Christ.

Do you submit to Christ as Lord?

Parents and godparents: I submit to Christ.

Do you come to Christ, the way, the truth and the life?

Parents and godparents: I come to Christ.

If similar declarations are required in the dedication I think it's understandable that the pastor may have trouble with it. He may wonder and the rest of the congregation may wonder how they can reject the devil and repent of sin when living together unmarried. If the parents aren't required to make similar declarations in a dedication then I don't see what the problem is.
 
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joyousliving

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rogsr,

I am sorry that you took offense at my question when none was intended. I just wanted to establish that love doesn't mean liberty.

These two people live in the US. They are not considered legally married because they have not been willing to comply with the laws in their jurisdiction regarding marriage. God expects us to submit to the authority of man to the extent that it doesn't contradict God's law. It isn't wrong for the pastor to require them to have evidenced their committment to each other.

Further, if all of these covenants with God are just a matter of the heart they should have the same attitude about the baby dedication. If it suffices that these two have made their vows privately before God to be married, then they will have the same success making their dedication of this child privately before God.

I believe that man has always been made righteous before God as a matter of faith. I also believe that we have certain freedoms as Christians. But that freedom doesn't allow us to disregard the law of God or of man. It doesn't allow us to live in such a manner that even non-Christians can wag their fingers in judgment. And it doesn't extend so far as to compel a pastor to perform a dedication ceremony against his better judgment.

As for your remarks about the ceremony, God doesn't care about normal. He wants obedience. They can still have the ceremony when they want 10/05. There is nothing wrong with that. They don't have to run off to a courthouse either. I am sure that this pastor would be happy to marry them.

As for judging others, I am not judging this young woman. Judgment belongs to God. We are commanded to exhort each other as Christians. We are commanded to correct and reprove. To see a brother or sister in the Lord sin and not bring it to their attention is not love. I am not here to pound her into submission. I am here to warn her of the consequences of openly and willfully sinning against God.

I am not going to sidetrack the thread by talking about abuse and divorce. If you would like to move that conversation to a new thread I would be happy to join you.
 
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