So...who "wears the pants?"

Gwenyfur said:

Did you also know that as wives we won't answer for the family...our husbands will be required to answer to God for how they've led their family

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I have heard this before, but have yet to find how this could be based in scripture. If you know where scripture teaches this, I would love to see it.

I respectfully suspect, however, that this is merely cultural understanding that has entered the church, and that the church has accepted as true rather than drawing the truth of such issues from the Bible itself.

Isaiah5213 said:

really? doing what the Lord called us to do is the whole thing in a nutshell. if the Lord said did it, no matter our stance or our position or our level of intelligence or our ultimate sacrifice or our whatever, than those of us doing what we believe w/heart soul mind and strength to be ordered and called to do should not be mocked, nor belittled, nor made fun of, nor insulted. i am not saying that you were called to "be lorded over" by your husband, as you cringe to believe i am saying... obviously we have come to our own convictions.

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Whoa now, dear. I think that you are misreading the statements that I have made thusfar. Please, please, go back and read the things that I have written on authority and submission before thinking in the slightest that I am arguing against the authority of my husband, or my submission to both my husband and my Lord above. I know that it is about the will of the Lord, no matter what our personal feelings are on the matter. I have a rebellious nature, just like every other person on earth, and this was a particularly difficult area for me. But, when the Lord decided to make His point to me, He really hit it home hard.
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I'm not wasting breath here because I think that other people should listen to my opinion. My opinion means nothing. I do think that God has made a very strong stand for the order in a family though. I'm just not seeing the wisdom in brow-beating something that I (we; many of us) view as God's truth on the matter, when they obviously have their own views and are not open to being swayed at all. It serves no purpose to continue that kind of conversation, especially when things do not always stay polite. Like I said above, I would just appreciate the back-handed insults to cease. Every time that someone asks anything about submission and/or authority, out come the barbs. No one can just say that they and their husband chooses to share authority. No, it is always a matter of "I'm too intelligent to allow that; He doesn't want a pushover; etc.". Well, it is just my point that that stuff isn't neccessary or wanted by a good many of people here. Women who choose to act differently within their marriage are no less intelligent, or inferior, or wasteful, or any number of said and insinuated insults that are repeated over and over on CF. Our husbands aren't bullies, sadists, or control freaks either- just for informations sake. I know that my outburst may seem inappropriate, but this conversation keeps reappearing, and I've done a decent job of tollerating thoughtless comments made toward myself and other women that I greatly admire.

Just because I don’t accept the ideas presented here because I personally don’t see how they are found in scripture doesn’t mean I am trying to be stubborn, throw out the barbs and “refuse to be swayed”. (why do people assume they can go others heads and proclaim the motives of others?). I just try to base what I believe in scripture and what I think scripture is trying to tell me rather than human arguments. And since I don’t find the scriptural support to woman-only-submission, I won’t accept what I think is opposite of the message in the Bible. That is not *against* anyone here, but merely my personal walk and trying to follow where I am being led as best as I can.

I also find it interesting that people who simply don’t agree with the women-only submit view are perceived as attacking those who do. Although I greatly disagree with others on this topic, I still love and respect them. It is silly to think that we should all agree all the time or that if someone disagrees with your perspective that they are attacking people who don’t agree. What happened to “reasoning together” or having a good healthy discussion in the pursuit of truth? If we can’t do that, how are we going to witness to others in the world who believe nothing like we do. Are we going to run away hurt and offended and pretend to personally attacked just because they don’t agree with us. I think we need to be able to have loving discussions with each other before we can be able to share this love with the world.

I have no issue with people for simply not believing the same as I do, and I am sorry that you believe that that was what I was saying. Of course we should have discussion, which we definitely have had. lol We keep discussing the same thing again and again, more passionately each time. It's not an insult to say that there are women who will not be swayed. *laughs* I like to refrain from insulting myself, for one, and I definitely have not been motivated to be swayed. lol

Lastly, I wonder sometimes what we are even discussing this for, since I don't know any women who believe that they should just be a bobble head and agree with everything that their husband says. Likewise, I also don't know any men who are so stubborn as to think that they have the market on wisdom, or who are so lacking in love that they don't give decisions to their wife. Really, the wole stink just seems to arise from even the merest mention that a man should have the right to have a final say, in the rare instance that they cannot find some creative way to compromise. So many folks act like proponents for wifely submission are saying for a woman to lay down and play dead, instead of being involved in the daily workings of life, and that isn't so.

Gwenyfur said:

Eph 5:31
"For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and two shall become one flesh."

Here Paul reinforces the divine plan for marriage. The oneness of marriage not only a picture of how God sees us as one, but also a picture of Christ and His bride, the church.

Did you also know that as wives we won't answer for the family...our husbands will be required to answer to God for how they've led their family

All in all girls, if we're walking according to the Word, we're all good

I also notice that while many here want to rant about submitting to their husbands, they completely ingore that their husband is to submit to Christ.
Why is it that so many can say I submit to Jesus, but I'm not going to submit to those He's placed in authority over me...

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I would never have come to the conclusions that you did, even if I was reading the same exact scriptures. It's interesting to me that you come to those conclusions and I'm not sure I can follow your line of thinking here. Where in scripture do you find the idea that the husband is the one required to account to God for the family?

Regarding ranting: I think we all have been a bit rantish at times, but I see the points everyones making. I'm not sure I agree with much that's been said but at least the different ideas are out there for the common good. What each of us walk away with is going to be up to individual conscience, I suppose!

Jenna said:

Whoa now, dear. I think that you are misreading the statements that I have made thusfar. Please, please, go back and read the things that I have written on authority and submission before thinking in the slightest that I am arguing against the authority of my husband, or my submission to both my husband and my Lord above. I know that it is about the will of the Lord, no matter what our personal feelings are on the matter. I have a rebellious nature, just like every other person on earth, and this was a particularly difficult area for me. But, when the Lord decided to make His point to me, He really hit it home hard.
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i am sorry jenna,

i was not responding to your comments. when i said "really", it should have been "honestly".. while at first when you made your posts, i was unclear as to what you were publicly were stating, your last post was very clear of where you stood. i merely took your post to add and accentuate my points. again, i apologize that i was not clear here...

my post was not to you.. my quote of cringing at the idea of being "lorded over" by our husbands was not directed toward you, but was directed toward those women who didn't see the scripture as i did--not to say that anyone who sees the scripture differently than me is "wrong" mind you...

Jenna said:

Who is saying to put a husband in a position where he is basically worshipped?

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It's a valid question, I think. Because the extreme of "submission" is looking to the husband for all spiritual direction and allowing him to be the connection to God in the home. I have observed something like this in many families, or at least it seems that way. The husband is the one who is serious about his faith. He's the one serving in ministry. He's the one reading his bible. He's looked to for giving the devotions in the home. The wife is busy taking care of the kids and supporting the husband, and it just seems like that's all there is. Of course, what "seems" to be might not actually be the case. But as a woman who's involved and presents a friendly face, I do become privy to information and inside looks in to certain lifestyles, and this is a general impression I am getting about married women. They seem all wrapped up in their husbands and their kids, to the detriment of their walk with the Lord. Often in these discussions about marriage and gender roles (as God wants us to act in marriage), there seems to be the unstated assumption that we please the Lord by pleasing our husbands. So it seemed to me to be a valid point to raise. When is submission idolotry?

(FYI: I also have other similar questions, such as when does a love for the Bible become Bible-worship, as in overly bookish and obsessed with the letter of the law, and not loving God.)

Just wanted to add on to something else I said earlier about this idea of questioning the "blessings" of wifely submission in marriage. I have observed that many wives/mothers (and husbands/fathers, although to a lesser degree) can be very tribal regarding their family, in the sense of being extremely focused on the needs and rights of their own families. Women seem often to become totally fixated on their own family concerns. That can be a virtue to a certain degree. I believe that fulfilling responsibilities towards family is very good and pleasing to God since he designed us for that. But I believe it can be a vice too. As in, we care about our own kin to the detriment of caring about others. I believe that Jesus taught us to not be so biased where we only care about our own friends and family, but to care for the other people in the church, for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the unwanted, the alien, the unbelievers and various "others". Jesus said that when we care for others, we are loving Him.

So I guess it's my tendency to want to remember that there are many other blessings besides the role as wife (and sometimes being to "wife-ly" can be a vice when it interferes with our caring for non-family). Also, it seems to me that God cares what's in our hearts, so we could be fulfilling the letter of the law (acting submissive in marriage) when our motivations are impure or we do it joylessly.

Just thoughts in general, so I hope nobody reads in to this and imagines that I am attacking them personally. To me, these are all my personal concerns too because I am not immune to any of this. I am actually highly dependent on my husband and tend to rely on him too much, to the detriment of my living as an individual in any way. So my personal situation is different than how it might sound when I'm talking "in general".

The man is not responsible for his family. Each person will answer to God for his own choices and life. Both father and mother are responsible to raise their kids as best as possible, and they will both answer to God.

Just wanted to thank whoever blessed me! I think I should explain that the reason I sound sad about being dependent on my husband is that in my case, it's not the healthiest situation...since I am disabled and ill at this time in my life. I wish I were a little bit more independent in the sense of not relying on him for things I would rather do myself (like going to the supermarket, vacuuming, most of the housework, etc.). It's a good feeling to know that you are contributing in the marriage by at least doing some housework, especially if you are unemployed. I don't even have any kids, so I can't claim that I'm working hard raising kids or something meaningful for the family. In my case, my level of dependency on my husband is much higher than normal. I guess I'm grateful that he doesn't lord it over me, considering my low status at this time. (fyi, I do housework but it is never enough, so he ends up doing a lot to help out when things get out of hand). Back to 15 minute cleaning intervals...

When is submission idolotry?

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One example of submission becomin idolotry would be for a wife to submit to her husband when he is trying to lead her into sin. She knows what the Lord wants, but chooses to cater to the pleasure of her husband instead.

I believe that fulfilling responsibilities towards family is very good and pleasing to God since he designed us for that. But I believe it can be a vice too. As in, we care about our own kin to the detriment of caring about others.

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True, true. Many people can have tunnel vision in any number of areas in their life, including their family. I think that learning how to be generous at home (not spoiling) can help equip women to serve others also. For example, our church is always asking for women who can donate their time and a dish for funeral luncheons. It's a shame when a woman feels that she has to turn away from this caring ministry because she doesn't know how to cook a nice dish on her own. Another example is one that I am putting into practice at home. I am refreshing my skills with my crochet hook so I am skilled enough to make blankets for the homeless, and also for the infants in our local NICU. In the meantime, I am fussing over pot-holders, hats, and scarves- trying to remember what my Grandma taught me.

So I guess it's my tendency to want to remember that there are many other blessings besides the role as wife (and sometimes being to "wife-ly" can be a vice when it interferes with our caring for non-family). Also, it seems to me that God cares what's in our hearts, so we could be fulfilling the letter of the law (acting submissive in marriage) when our motivations are impure or we do it joylessly.

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Of course we are blessed in so many ways. I am definitely blessed in many more ways than that of being a wife and a mother. I understand what you are saying about having a joyful heart and doing things for the right reasons. That's one of the things that I just love about Jesus. He doesn't just expect us to pay attention to God's law, but to obey the SPIRIT of it. I'll admit to needing to work on my attitude from time to time. God is pretty regular at convicting my heart when I have to re-evaluate or have a lesson to learn. It doesn't usually feel all that good, but it's neccessary. It sure does feel good to know when I am doing things that are pleasing though. *nods* My big struggle is to not become complacant at that point.

Jenna said:

That's one of the things that I just love about Jesus. He doesn't just expect us to pay attention to God's law, but to obey the SPIRIT of it.

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True true. One of the ways that I feel God has changed my heart concerning being a wife is that I genuinely want to take care of my husband now, whereas when I first got married, I would often wish he would do more and that I didn't have to do some of the tasks that I find mind-numbingly boring. I felt guilty before, but I didn't keep pushing myself to do more and more when I had a bad attitude about it. I prayed a lot about my lack of concern for my husband's well being on a day to day basis. And then I found that God started to help me to grow in compassion and concern for my husband. I'm not even handling things as well as I would like, but I make an effort, and then my husband feels more loved because he sees me trying to care for him. Attitude is so important. God is so amazing that he wants to renew our minds and hearts and keep working on us.

I was thinking about the issue of marriage again and female submission. I realized that I sense that I want to be gung ho about making my marriage a correct christian marriage because I'm afraid of divorce. I wonder if other women feel that way too? Like if we are properly submissive, then our marriages will last? The divorce statistic is supposedly very high in the christian population... I think it's higher than the average of everyone including nonbelievers? (Not sure...but I know a ton of divorced christians). Are we clinging to our "works" of submission in hopes that it gaurantees a successful marriage?

whatseekye said:

I was thinking about the issue of marriage again and female submission. I realized that I sense that I want to be gung ho about making my marriage a correct christian marriage because I'm afraid of divorce. I wonder if other women feel that way too? Like if we are properly submissive, then our marriages will last? ... Are we clinging to our "works" of submission in hopes that it gaurantees a successful marriage?

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Since my first husband made a point that the reason he left me was because of my failure to be submissive, I can identify with what you are saying here! I was determined to do it "right" this time around because I sure didn't want to go through another divorce, but in the end, this husband left me as well.

I thought I was submissive in both cases. In the first marriage I would argue and manipulate to get my way, but since I always let him have the final word, I considered myself submissive. In the second marriage, I was more subdued, quieter, and more outwardly submissive, but I was still rebellious on the inside.

I am no longer fearful of divorce. In fact, restoring my marriage was God's idea, not mine; many times I have wanted to exit since my husband's return. Now I'm more submissive to my husband than ever, and I think it is because the pressure is off, the worst has already happened, and it is solely an outgrowth of my submission to God.

I know that I don't do any "works" in my home with the mindset that I am trying to avoid divorce. To be honest, for me it is more about having peace at home, and feeling good about where I'm at in my own growth. Granted, I think that having peace might change the dynamics of many households. However, each marriage is made of two people, and you can only control and change yourself. So, if a husband really has it in his mind that he doesn't want to be married for any reason, he's responsible for his decision. When you marry, it isn't till death do us part, or until she gets on my nerves through her lack of submission. I think about how it says in the Bible that it's better for a man to sleep in the corner of his roof to be in the house with his disparaging wife. Obviously, not everyone has a peaceful home and a submissive wife, and it still seems important for a man to honor his word before God that he made during his wedding vows.

All in all, I don't worry about divorce. I try to remind my husband every day why it is that he likes me so much though. lol I try to treat him well and show him that I love him. If after I have made all the effort that I have, he would still want to leave, then I know that he just has a terminal lack of brain cells and a rock for a heart. lol

andiesmama said:

We discuss everything, of course, and most of the time we decide mutually on something. However, if there's a disagreement, I submit to my husband's decision...after all, he is the head of the household and I depend on him to take care of the family.

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Same way in MY household.. My wife and I will always discuss things - when we can not agree - she will defer to Me.. Then there are the times I just cave in and let her win - better to be happy and walk away then sit around and be bitter abouth something not worth it...

When we make decisions we do it mutually. If we disagree we don't automatically go with my husbands opinion. We both present our sides of the issue and come to a compromise. Most decisions are pretty clear cut and we agree.

This has been a tricky point for us in a lot of ways since we got married in Feb. We both come from families where it is very obvious that mom wears the pants. My parents are still together because my dad is very meek and his parents are divorced because his mom isn't meek at all. All he knows is the strong, vocal woman and I know that plus a man that just takes it. It's been tough because his first instinct is to let me have my way and mine is to let it be that way. He is slowly taking on head of the household as I slowly relinquish that control over everything. It's a process that's for sure.

searle29678 said:

This has been a tricky point for us in a lot of ways since we got married in Feb. We both come from families where it is very obvious that mom wears the pants. My parents are still together because my dad is very meek and his parents are divorced because his mom isn't meek at all. All he knows is the strong, vocal woman and I know that plus a man that just takes it. It's been tough because his first instinct is to let me have my way and mine is to let it be that way. He is slowly taking on head of the household as I slowly relinquish that control over everything. It's a process that's for sure.

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That sounds so much like our families. My mum really does wear the trousers in my family and my dad...well he's so quiet, bless him, barely says a word sometimes. My husbands parents are divorced and he grew up with his mum and she had to be pretty strong to take care of him whilst living as a single parent and not earning very much. I'm kind of lucky in a way in that, whilst growing up in a household where mum ruled everyone I've inherited the quiet and easy going nature of my dad. So I don't rush in, stamp my feet and demand control in the way I've seen my mum do. Again my husband is a very laid back kind of person so at the times when I'm not so relaxed he helps bring me back down to earth.