Predestination or Free Will

LaudGod · Jan 2, 2005

I am Christan and I am not here to argue, but to figure this problem that has been in my mind.

God knows the path that we will take.. whether it be to Heaven or Hell.
Can you alter the path that God has already forseen?
If yes, then God isn't all knowing.
If no, then how is that free will?

All replies are apprecited.

Many Blessings,
Matt

97trsgl · Jan 2, 2005

It's all a matter of perspective. From the human perspective it looks like we have free will to chose but from God's perspective He already knows what we are gonna choose before we do

ps139 · Jan 2, 2005

I know its not going to help, but my answer is both.

meshnaster · Jan 2, 2005

God knows what we will do because we have already done it... in the future. God exists in all time, so He is in the future where He has seen what our free will has led us to do.

ChristianMuse · Jan 3, 2005

ps139 said:
I know its not going to help, but my answer is both.

Your answer to the question is correct, it is predestination and it is free will. That is why God's ways are so awesome and beyond understanding. His macro view cannot be understood from our micro perspective.

Theophorus · Jan 3, 2005

So given what others have said, it does become a question of the will of a child of God. Let's look at this another way. Even the angels do not no of the things predestined for men, and were not aware of the complete plan of salvation.

onajourney87 · Jan 3, 2005

LaudGod said:
God knows the path that we will take.. whether it be to Heaven or Hell.
Can you alter the path that God has already forseen?
If yes, then God isn't all knowing.
If no, then how is that free will?

Knowing and causing are totally different things.

osm

Apollo Rhetor · Jan 3, 2005

Where does the Bible say we have free will?

Every mention of "choice" or "choosing" salvation in the New Testament is God choosing people to be saved. I have _never_ seen it used in the context of a person "choosing" to be saved, or to "choose" God's gift, etc. God chooses who will be saved, because we do not have free will. We were slaves to sin and now we are slaves to Christ.

So there is no contradiction between free will and predestination - there simply is no free will. You lost your free will the moment you first sinned.

ChristianMuse · Jan 3, 2005

tyreth said:
Where does the Bible say we have free will?

Every mention of "choice" or "choosing" salvation in the New Testament is God choosing people to be saved. I have _never_ seen it used in the context of a person "choosing" to be saved, or to "choose" God's gift, etc. God chooses who will be saved, because we do not have free will. We were slaves to sin and now we are slaves to Christ.

So there is no contradiction between free will and predestination - there simply is no free will. You lost your free will the moment you first sinned.

Choose you this day whom you will follow. As for me and my house we will follow the Lord. Joshua (paraphrased)

In the new testament Hebrews talks about those who trod the blood of Christ underfoot being lost. They choose to depart after salvation. The willful sinner as opposed to the willingly sinful.

ruby_redeemed · Jan 3, 2005

LaudGod said:
I am Christan and I am not here to argue, but to figure this problem that has been in my mind.

God knows the path that we will take.. whether it be to Heaven or Hell.
Can you alter the path that God has already forseen?
If yes, then God isn't all knowing.
If no, then how is that free will?

All replies are apprecited.

Many Blessings,
Matt

Ephesians 1:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

No, we can not alter the path that God has predestined for us, nor should we want to because He has worked it for His purpose and His purpose is perfect.

soulmanna · Jan 3, 2005

There is many who come to jesus, when they go to a big meeting in the fields of india etc 1000s every day. So it just shows us that many more would have come, if the gospel had reached them, years ago. is it not fair to say you are in romans 9, it is with your mouth you confess and in your heart you beleive. So I feel its by free will not predestination as for that we are all predestined to know the truth.

ruby_redeemed · Jan 3, 2005

soulmanna said:
There is many who come to jesus, when they go to a big meeting in the fields of india etc 1000s every day. So it just shows us that many more would have come, if the gospel had reached them, years ago. is it not fair to say you are in romans 9, it is with your mouth you confess and in your heart you beleive. So I feel its by free will not predestination as for that we are all predestined to know the truth.

The Bible does not say predestined to know truth, but predestined for salvation!

(Romans 8:29-30) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. {30} Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

You can not know if those people were saved or not and if they weren't is it not God's choice to save or not save His own creation?

Apollo Rhetor · Jan 3, 2005

ChristianMuse said:
Choose you this day whom you will follow. As for me and my house we will follow the Lord. Joshua (paraphrased)

In the new testament Hebrews talks about those who trod the blood of Christ underfoot being lost. They choose to depart after salvation. The willful sinner as opposed to the willingly sinful.

Scripture references please, and I will provide an answer (whether that be a rebuttal or an acknowledgement that I was wrong). I did say New Testament, but provide the Joshua reference as well, I do not think that it contradicts what I said.

knownbeforetime · Jan 3, 2005

It's like this...

A guy sees a door and it says,"Enter if you wish."

He decides to enter and sees a long table with lots of people and right up front is place setting with his name on it.

Now see, he had the free will to enter but was also forseen to have made the choice.

Of course some of it requires that you have a doctorate in quantum physics.....

Jaywalk · Jan 3, 2005

LaudGod said:
Can you alter the path that God has already forseen?
If yes, then God isn't all knowing.
If no, then how is that free will?

God doesn't foresee the future. When we say God is "eternal" it means more than just a long time. God is not bound by space and time as we are, so he doesn't foresee a future which hasn't happened yet. He sees all of space and time in a single boundless "now".

We're not like that. We experience life one moment at a time, moving through space and time as we live out our lives and make our choices. That God should see those choices from the vantage point of eternity doesn't alter our decision to make them in time.

ohgin · Jan 4, 2005

It is definitely predestination. There are many reason as to why it should not be free will. If we are saying Free Will, we are looking down on God because we are saying that we are the one who worked for the Salvation and not God who works our salvation. We were born sinners, our nature is to sin. By ourselves, we cannot see God. If God does not choose to appear to us and the holy spirit to convict us then how can we believe??? Believing in God is not just opening your mouth and say I believe. It is not just doing God's work. When you believe, you believe because you can see all of his works in your life. You believe because you can see clearly his power manifested in the world. If you say that just because you follow God blindly, you are believing in God then I will say that you must not have known who is Judas in the bible. Did Judas follow God? Yes he did. Is he going to heaven? I will say a definite NO. He followed God, but unfortunately, he did not believe in him. How can a belief be a matter of free will??? It is like saying that you can choose to believe that the sky is red when it is actually blue. It is like saying that you believe that you are an alien from another planet when you are not. Our believe in him is like a natural process, the more our eyes are opened, the more we believe. Our believe is definately not free will. Therefore we are not saved through free will

johan777 · Jan 4, 2005

My two cents worth:

Phi 2:12, 13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." (MKJV)

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (ESV)

ruby_redeemed · Jan 4, 2005

knownbeforetime said:
It's like this...

A guy sees a door and it says,"Enter if you wish."

He decides to enter and sees a long table with lots of people and right up front is place setting with his name on it.

Now see, he had the free will to enter but was also forseen to have made the choice.

Of course some of it requires that you have a doctorate in quantum physics.....

Man does not have the ability to walk through the door, he doesn't even care if there is a door. Man can not save himself, which is a good thing!

(Romans 3:10-12) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

elman · Jan 4, 2005

ruby_redeemed said:
Man does not have the ability to walk through the door, he doesn't even care if there is a door. Man can not save himself, which is a good thing!

(Romans 3:10-12) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Is this scripture to be taken literally? Have you never sought God? I have. Paul and most of the NT writters did. Thousands of people are seeking God today and have over the centuries. We were created for the purpose of seeking God-Acts 17. This scripture is hyperbole. It is exagerating for effect. Out efforts are so lacking and so inadequate and so imperfect as to be pitiful attempts at finding God and loving Him. We do not understand perfectly or completely but we can understand partally. We cannot be perfectly righteous but we can be loving toward our neighbor to a limited extent. We cannot save ourselves, but we can seek God and if we do, God will help us find Him. Like the prodical son we can stay in the pig pen and die or we can return home and God will meet us and welcome us home.

elman · Jan 4, 2005

ohgin said:
It is definitely predestination. There are many reason as to why it should not be free will. If we are saying Free Will, we are looking down on God because we are saying that we are the one who worked for the Salvation and not God who works our salvation. We were born sinners, our nature is to sin. By ourselves, we cannot see God. If God does not choose to appear to us and the holy spirit to convict us then how can we believe??? Believing in God is not just opening your mouth and say I believe. It is not just doing God's work. When you believe, you believe because you can see all of his works in your life. You believe because you can see clearly his power manifested in the world. If you say that just because you follow God blindly, you are believing in God then I will say that you must not have known who is Judas in the bible. Did Judas follow God? Yes he did. Is he going to heaven? I will say a definite NO. He followed God, but unfortunately, he did not believe in him. How can a belief be a matter of free will??? It is like saying that you can choose to believe that the sky is red when it is actually blue. It is like saying that you believe that you are an alien from another planet when you are not. Our believe in him is like a natural process, the more our eyes are opened, the more we believe. Our believe is definately not free will. Therefore we are not saved through free will

If there is no free will, define sin. I define sin as the choice to be unloving. How do you define sin? Can a robot sin? Did God create some humans with no ability to love? Did He therefore create them just to have someone to torture for all time? If so God is not love and He is not lovable. There is no one who is forced to be with God or remain with Him. All who come to Him do so voluntarily. We are not robots. If we were we would be unable to love.

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