Gospel of Prosperity

Blynn · Jan 30, 2002

There are many out there (televangelist) that preach a different gospel a "gospel of prosperity". Their ministry is based on a "name it and claim it" idea that if we jump up and down, stand on the word,sow enough seeds, give enough money... God has to give us what we want.

What are your views on this teaching? Do you think that these are the false teachers or false doctrines that the Bible mentions that will come in the last days? Or do you think this is sound doctrine?

I am not into bashing preachers or ministries. I personally believe that this teaching hurts people and is wrong.

Look forward to your input,

God Bless,
Roberta

rollinTHUNDER · Jan 30, 2002

Originally posted by blynn
There are many out there that preach a "gospel of prosperity". Their whole ministry is based on the idea that if we jump up and down, stand on the word, give enough money... God has to give us what we want.

What are your views on this teaching? Do you think that these are the false teachers or false doctrines that the Bible mentions will come in the last days?

Hello Roberta,
I'm not very familiar with this Ministry, but if it is as you have said, it would appear to me that they are more interested in your money, than they are the truth of Gods Word. It's a shame that there are so many wolves out there, feeding on the sheep. The bible says, My people perish for lack of knowledge. I would hate to calculate the number of new believers who go to church, without a bible, and just swallow up whatever that preacher says. They think they are doing good just going to church, but all the while they are being deceived.

If you are a new believer in Christ, do yourself a huge favor. Take your bible with you, and make sure the preacher is preaching the truth. There are probably more false churches, than good ones, and probably many many more. Be very careful.

Blynn · Jan 30, 2002

Thank you rollingthunder for your input.

Good advice.

I am sorry if I did not make my post clearer. I did go back and edit it. I am not talking about a ministry but serveral.

The ministries I am refering to are television ministries. I believe some refer to it as the "faith movement".

God Bless,
Roberta

rkbo · Jan 30, 2002

Roberta you are wise to wonder about these kinds of teachings. I had been reading up on witchcraft one time when I noticed a disturbing thing.

I heard a preacher say we must speak words
Witchcraft says we must use incantations speaking words

I heard a preacher say that there is power in these words when coupled with faith.
Witchcraft says they must believe in the spoken words of the incantations to give it power.

I heard this preacher say that faith is a power and words used with faith power will cause miracles.

Witchcraft says that incantations spoken in faith will cause magic.

We must fight this doctrin. We must have faith in an object and that object is God. He has power and he is the miracle maker. Beside that, if spoken words are the only way to get prayers answered, what about Mutes that can't talk?

We must conform our will to God's will and not the other way around. There is much that needs to be said on this but I'll let some others post on this first.

Apologist · Jan 30, 2002

Originally posted by rkbo
Roberta you are wise to wonder about these kinds of teachings. I had been reading up on witchcraft one time when I noticed a disturbing thing.

I heard a preacher say we must speak words
Witchcraft says we must use incantations speaking words

I heard a preacher say that there is power in these words when coupled with faith.
Witchcraft says they must believe in the spoken words of the incantations to give it power.

I heard this preacher say that faith is a power and words used with faith power will cause miracles.

This is what Roberta is talking about and it is called the 'Word of faith' movement. It is completely unbiblical and is being pushed by many of the false teachers on TBN. Hinn, Hagin, Copeland, Meyers, Arnott, Wimber, etc. The list is extensive. Some of these people's teachings are straight out of the pit of hell and it absolutely amazes me that these people gobble it up. The best defense is to become so familiar with the truth that when a counterfeit looms on the horizon you will know it instantaneously.

God Bless

Terri · Jan 31, 2002

Hi Roberta,

MT 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
MT 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

Jesus was hungry, and he wouldn't perform a miracle for selfish reasons!

I believe these "word of faith" people are falling victim to the same temptation that Satan tried to tempt Jesus with--performing miracles for selfish reason.

By the way, I also believe that the new world order is the result of another temptation Satan tried on Jesus:

MT 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
MT 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "

Further, as I have discussed on another thread, I believe that Satan tempted Jesus with suicide.

MT 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

" `He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "

MT 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

I believe a lot of people, even Christians are now being tempted with suicide.

I hope all of this testing means that the Kingdon of God is near!!

Terri

Yauming · Jan 31, 2002

Yeah hi Roberta,
The problem is that the preachers twist the bible to suit their own brand of theolgy. When I hear these preachers, part of me wants to believe them. They tell us all the things we want to hear and they use very persuasive language, mixing truth with half-truth, or only concentrating on some teachings of the bible, so that most people find it very hard not to believe them.

The bible has various teachings on being rich or poor. Big problems occurs when people focus solely on one side and neglect the other.

I do believe that God does want to bless his children materially and spiritually. Abraham and Job were very rich men when they died. Job 42:10

Moreover we are blessed *so that* we can be a blessing to other people. Genesis 12:3

However, being rich is not 100% evidence that God is 100% on your side or that one is holy. Luke 16:19-25. James 5. The idea that our bank balance is evidence of personal holiness is stupid. Perhaps, it *can* considered evidence of God's blessing but if the rich person spends it all on himself or obtained it thru evil means- it becomes a curse.

On the other side, material poverty is not a prerequisite for or substitute for spirituality. People tend to misinterpret Matt5:1 for that. Being poor helps to make people more humble and more dependent on God. But just because someone is poor- does not necessarily make that person holy.

Yet our attitude should be that of Paul and Habakkuk who in everything, whether rich or poor, always tried to praise God.
Habakkuk 3:17

solo66 man · Jan 31, 2002

Yes, I agree they are the wolves in sheeps cloaks. They are feeding on the greed of people, and are leading to a very dark
place of forboding. I do believe it may be part of the shaking out,
though; seperating the wheat from the chaffe.
Some who are detemined to serve the King will turn and see the evil that lurks behind their pretty, masks of gold and silver.

The difficult thing though is they really do use the word to hypnotise. Then they slip a word or two of their own when everyone is mesmerised. Not everyone is mesmerised though.
I was not. We were all praising the Lord, swaying, bouncing, hands in the air, when the preacher hollered, "Dont ask God to do His will. Tell Him what you want. You are entitled to an inheritence that He promised you. He cannot refuse you. He cannot go back on His word."

This was also taught in healing people. "Dont ask Him His will. You do not know what He will do. You want that person healed. God Has to heal him."

These are the same people who say that God is 6' 2" tall.

Speaking a word can curse or heal though. I truely believe that.
This is why we need to be careful in what we say to eachother.
Words do wound. A hurtful word can topple a king. A kind word can lift a dreg from the gutters.

God does answer prayers. He does heal and does prosper, but we may have a price to pay. And as was said here none of it proves we are Godly or sinners. All is as it should be. God used
the Babylonians (idolators) as His army to carry Israel away for many years; Assyria too.

Yauming · Jan 31, 2002

Hello Terri,

Welcome to the PECA forum.

I agree with what you said; except for the part below.

Satan did not tempt Jesus with suicide. The evil one wanted Jesus to prove that He was the Son of God. This terrible taunt reoccurs right to the very end of Jesus ministry. People laughed at Jesus on the cross and taunted Him to prove that He was the Son of God by coming down from the cross.

The tragedy is that everyday people including Christians are repeating this temptation by demanding God to prove that He is real by doing stuff for them.

Originally posted by Terri
Further, as I have discussed on another thread, I believe that Satan tempted Jesus with suicide.

MT 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

" `He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "

MT 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

I believe a lot of people, even Christians are now being tempted with suicide.
Terri

Blynn · Jan 31, 2002

I think that you have all made some excellent points, and raised some good questions about this type of teaching.

rkbo, I have notice the parallels to witchcraft myself.

I would like to share a personal story about this type of teaching.
My mother was in financial trouble. She felt that she had found her answer in the teachings of Robert Tilton. He had a "vow of faith"(the amount of the vow was $1000.. You make a vow with God for your miracle. Weekly my mother would faithfully pay on her vow first instead of paying her bills. To make a long story short she lost her home to foreclosure and went into bankrupcy.
The sad part was what happend to her. She could not see that this could be a false teaching she thought that she did something wrong...she beat herself up.

I think that this is dangerous teaching and it does hurt people.

I agree that we need to know the word of God and not let false teachers interpret scripture for us.

I also believe that we need to conform our will to God's will.

One more point that I think needs to be addressed. What if it doesn't work? The money doesn't come, our loved one dies and is not healed? These teachers do not address this or turn it around that the believer has done something wrong.

God Bless,
Roberta

kimanne · Jan 31, 2002

Great thread and ideas! Especially loved Yaumings and Solo's posts.

I have to admit to being a little trusting. I'm continuing to ask the Lord for a discerning spirit so that I can recognize these wolves in sheep's clothing.

Some people, especially the elderly who cannot get out, are eager to listen to God's Word on television. They can be easily be caught up in deception, like your mother was, Roberta. My mother is 70 years old now, and she's a very intelligent, grounded person that never fell easily for things. However, lately, she'll call me to tell me that she got this or that in the mail, and it promises a free cruise or free that if she only does this or buys that... I can't believe that she'd bother a look at that stuff. But your mom, Roberta, really thought her heart was in the right place. And, of course, when you give your money, you're "giving to the Lord." That's so sad. But somewhere in the Bible it says that God laughs at the wicked, for He knows their day is coming. I've always thought that people who teach false doctrine or lead people knowingly astray for less than honest motives ($$$$), will probably have a special "reward" awaiting them... I get no pleasure believing that, but know that the Lord accords justice. ~kim

rollinTHUNDER · Jan 31, 2002

Yeah Roberta,
I remember that thief (Tilton) from when I was a new believer. I almost wanted to give too. But fortunate for me, I've always been fairly patient. So I waited. Then the next time I saw him, he was still talking about money. And then the next. I knew he was a crook. The gospel was never about money, money, money. I think, that when we see these thiefs come on tv, we should probably start complaining about them to the station managers. And then if we see the manager not respond, then we will know that he is in it for the money too. Then we just have to spread the word around, and get others to do the same. Then we may start seeing these crooks fall right on their faces.. I remember this other guy, but don't recall his name. He kept doing all this healing, and begging for money. I told my wife, these are staged healings, because not once, never did he even mention the name of Jesus. So he was easy to spot. But some of these crooks might use the name of Jesus for personal gain. I would not want to give money to tv ministries, we should give to our own fellowships. But don't stop giving just because you got taken once. We can't use that as an excuse not to give. The Lord said to be good stewards or manage wisely.

One time my wife told me about a woman whose husband had just left her. She had two kids and only a part time job. I never met her, but I drove the Sunday school bus for about four years, and I would pick up her two little girls and take them to church. That night, when I was driving to work, I sensed that the Lord wanted me to give of my surplus. I didn't have a lot, but I had $40.00 left over, after my bills were paid. I just knew that He wanted me to give it all to her. I put it in an envelope, and told my wife to give it to her, and not to say who gave it to her. The lady opened it up, and started crying. She kept asking who gave it, but my wife never told. $40.00 is no big deal, sure I wanted to get ahead on one of my bills, but I made the sacrifice. It turned out that the lady had just got into her bill money to buy food for her girls. She was gonna not pay on of her bills. She could not believe it. She just kept crying, then she said that the groceries cost her $40.00. I gave her the exact amount she was short. That could have been the Lord testing to see if I would submit to his will. The Lord doesn't need my $40.00, but He does want to know what's in our hearts. Everything I have, it doesn't belong to me, it's His. He is just letting me borrow it. Like my Pastor said once,"The Lord doesn't pay every Friday, oh-but the Lord pays. I think we should give Him the glory with everything we have, everything. Someday, there will be a big pay day.

Blynn · Jan 31, 2002

I've always thought that people who teach false doctrine or lead people knowingly astray for less than honest motives ($$$$), will probably have a special "reward" awaiting them...

Amen. I think they will.

rollingthunder--you make a good point maybe people who have been taken by these ministries might not give in the future.

I believe that we should give. We need to help the poor and the less fortunate.

And thank you for sharing your story. God worked through you to help this woman.

God bless,
Roberta

Terri · Jan 31, 2002

Sorry Yauming, you just can't sway me from knowing what I know!

I do believe that Satan tempted Jesus to committ suicide. He told him to go ahead and just jump, God would have the angels catch him.

Jesus said you shouldn't put God to this test.

I believe Satan knew who Jesus was--there was no need to try to get him to prove who he was. But, there was good reason to try to get him to sin.

What test do you think Jesus was saying he shouldn't put God to?

God knew who Jesus was--why would this have been a test?

Terri

P. S. Thanks for the Welcome!

Yauming · Feb 4, 2002

Oh no, I'm really sorry to hear that, Blynn. Is your mom OK now?

God bless,

YM

Originally posted by blynn
faith"(the amount of the vow was $1000.. You make a vow with God for your miracle. Weekly my mother would faithfully pay on her vow first instead of paying her bills. To make a long story short she lost her home to foreclosure and went into bankrupcy.

Blynn · Feb 4, 2002

Thanks for asking Yauming,

Actually no. She pretty much gave up on her faith. I guess that is her choice. She needed to study the word on her own or at least find a church to go to. I think partly what happened was that she put all of her trust in this teaching and not in God and feels like she could never go through the disappointment again.

Like I said before this is her choice and I continue to pray for her.

The part that is the most upsetting to me is that for a long time my mom seemed to be "brainwashed"by this teaching.

God Bless,
Roberta

Yauming · Feb 4, 2002

Hi Terri,

I hope I didn't come across as being cranky or argumentative.

But I still think you are reading it wrong.

Satan tempted Jesus to jump off the building to PROVE that He was the Son of God. As it is:

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' Luke 4:9-11

Maybe he was trying to get Jesus to jump off the building and kill himself. But that's a secondary issue. The primary issue is the temptation - which SPECIFICALLY asks Jesus to PROVE his Heavenly position, SoG.

You will note that the Pharisees continually asked Jesus for a sign or to prove to them that He was the Son of God.

Jesus never did.

Why would "to prove that He was the Son of God" be a test? For the same reason that Jesus never performed a miracle for the Pharisees and Jews who continually pestered Him to prove that He was the Son of God.

Consider this mystery - For His own reason, God never wanted or allowed Jesus to prove to the world his Godship. Instead of being born as a poor son (whose parentage was slanderously questioned) of a Jewish carpenter, it would have been very easy for Jesus to come with his legion of angels and show beyond doubt that HE was God. He could have done a huge tour around the world, going to the highest places in government in Rome, Eqypt, Beijing, etc.. zapping evil people or any King, Emperor or Ruler who disagreed with him, and getting everyone to worship him. But he didn't.

We also do not know the level of communication between Jesus and the Father God when he was here on earth. It wasn't like they had a constant mind link. Jesus was very much like us- he had to go away to quiet places and pray to God. For example, we do know that Jesus, on the night that he was about to be betrayed, prayed that Father God would relief him from the suffering He had to endure. Satan however was trying to put seeds of doubt into Jesus mind - to try to doubt His relationship with the Father God. Satan tried to win His biggest battle- seperating the Son from the Father.

(Its past midnight here and I'm tired so I'll stop my ramblings. I don't think I asked your question well enough but if anyone else would like to try go ahead....

)

Originally posted by Terri
Sorry Yauming, you just can't sway me from knowing what I know!

I do believe that Satan tempted Jesus to committ suicide. He told him to go ahead and just jump, God would have the angels catch him--Satan told me to do the same thing. "Go ahead and jump", he said, "God will catch you."

Jesus said you shouldn't put God to this test.

I believe Satan knew who Jesus was--there was no need to try to get him to prove who he was. But, there was good reason to try to get him to sin.

What test do you think Jesus was saying he shouldn't put God to?

God knew who Jesus was--why would this have been a test?

Terri

P. S. Thanks for the Welcome!

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