Dear Hervey,
Hervey:
Luke 16:23 - 29 is a parable --- Not a literal !!!! In "fact" - the parable starts at verse 19 and ends at verse 31. This parable is to convey a message to the hearer. In this parable, it does not tell us that the soul is somewhere else while the body is dead in the grave ! A poor man dies. A rich man dies. The rich man is in hell (grave) in "torment" <-- The "only" place in the Word dealing with "torment", with an understanding, is the Lake of fire, called the second death. This hell (grave) is where he ended up after he found out his name was not in the book of life. He "sees" in this hell (grave) , where as if it was a literal grave (hell) he would not see, nor would he understand, nor would he realize, because there is no realization in the grave of this earth, that we are put into after we die. In Psalms 6:5 it plainly tells us , that there is no "remembrance" in death !! The only grave(hell) that has torment, and remembrance, is the grave - hell ---> is the Lake of fire - the second death.
Jim:
It doesnt matter whether its a parable or a true account. Either way, it expresses Christs view of the underworld. If there were no consciousness after death, Christ would be lying in suggesting, even in a parable, that there were. According to the Bible, the second death does not occur at least until the coming of the Lord, at the judgment. If the judgment had already occurred, the rich man would not have five brothers still living their lives on earth with nothing but scripture to let them know that there was such a place as hell, as they themselves would already be judged as well. Thus, the circumstance of this parable is pre-judgment, which means that the hell in which the rich man finds himself predates the second death.
As for Psalm 6:5, maybe youre misinterpreting it, or maybe David incorrectly believed that there was no consciousness after death. Perhaps not everything written in the Psalms qualifies as a basis for doctrine. Perhaps some of whats written in the Psalms merely expresses the writers subjective thoughts and feelings.
In contrast, Christ, Who was in a better position to know what the afterlife would be like than David was, wasnt venting His lamentations as David was; He was using the story of Lazarus and the rich man to teach.
Sincerely,
Jim
Hervey:
Luke 16:23 - 29 is a parable --- Not a literal !!!! In "fact" - the parable starts at verse 19 and ends at verse 31. This parable is to convey a message to the hearer. In this parable, it does not tell us that the soul is somewhere else while the body is dead in the grave ! A poor man dies. A rich man dies. The rich man is in hell (grave) in "torment" <-- The "only" place in the Word dealing with "torment", with an understanding, is the Lake of fire, called the second death. This hell (grave) is where he ended up after he found out his name was not in the book of life. He "sees" in this hell (grave) , where as if it was a literal grave (hell) he would not see, nor would he understand, nor would he realize, because there is no realization in the grave of this earth, that we are put into after we die. In Psalms 6:5 it plainly tells us , that there is no "remembrance" in death !! The only grave(hell) that has torment, and remembrance, is the grave - hell ---> is the Lake of fire - the second death.
Jim:
It doesnt matter whether its a parable or a true account. Either way, it expresses Christs view of the underworld. If there were no consciousness after death, Christ would be lying in suggesting, even in a parable, that there were. According to the Bible, the second death does not occur at least until the coming of the Lord, at the judgment. If the judgment had already occurred, the rich man would not have five brothers still living their lives on earth with nothing but scripture to let them know that there was such a place as hell, as they themselves would already be judged as well. Thus, the circumstance of this parable is pre-judgment, which means that the hell in which the rich man finds himself predates the second death.
As for Psalm 6:5, maybe youre misinterpreting it, or maybe David incorrectly believed that there was no consciousness after death. Perhaps not everything written in the Psalms qualifies as a basis for doctrine. Perhaps some of whats written in the Psalms merely expresses the writers subjective thoughts and feelings.
In contrast, Christ, Who was in a better position to know what the afterlife would be like than David was, wasnt venting His lamentations as David was; He was using the story of Lazarus and the rich man to teach.
Sincerely,
Jim
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