Can you lose your salvation?

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Many never are "saved". The entire work of salvation is one of extracting your personal truth from the lie that envelops it and risking your life to deliver it to the world. It must be worked out in fear and trembling. The blood of Jesus, which is all the revealed Word of God, some of which is still coming from some Jews, is a work in progress. Just coming down the aisle or raising your hand and saying I accept Jesus is not salvation. True, The Holy Spirit is imparted in Baptism, but we have only just begun to learn how to relate to Him as the Spirit of Truth in a world filled with lies, through a nature that is corrupted with lies. Those dressed in white are those who washed their teachings in the Blood of the Lamb. Many who focus on being good to go to Heaven will be surprised to see that they can't get in. Under the new contract, personal testimony of a truth that contradicts the teaching of the world is what effects entry. It is role, not goal that we must concern ourselves with. Am I a truth guide, a live giving one, or am I a Liar, a life taker? We determine the answer by the effect our behavioral guidance messages have on the blood. If the action taken by the listener cuts off the delivery of blood to even one small part of the body, it is a lie.
 
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First of all, as others have pointed out, this isn't just a Catholic/Protestant issue. If you really think that OSAS is essential to the Gospel, then not only do Catholics teach "another Gospel," but the entire early Church (including St. Augustine), the Eastern churches (including Eastern European Baptists), the Lutherans, the Wesleyan/Methodist churches, the Pentecostals, the Restorationists (Christian Churches/Churches of Christ), and the Anabaptists, _all_ teach another Gospel. It's ridiculous to speak of "Catholic infiltration," especially since this was the universal teaching of the Church before the Reformation. It isn't that Catholic ideas have "infiltrated" some Protestant churches, but that not all Protestants departed from the traditional teaching on this point, and some of them (the Restorationists, for instance) have returned to it (the Restorationists probably take "sola scriptura" more seriously than anyone, and if you read Alexander Campbell's debates with Catholics you'd see how absurd it is to speak of his movement being "infiltrated" by Catholic ideas). It's rather cheeky, also, to speak of OSAS as being sanctified by the blood of Protestant martyrs, when in fact the most persecuted group in the Reformation, the Anabaptists, didn't teach it.


As for the classic Scriptural text cited in favor of OSAS, namely John 10--this assumes that being a "sheep" depends _solely_ on a once-for-all act of faith, rather than on a continued life of faith. You need to back this assumption up by Scripture--and I know of no solid Scriptural support for it. The same is true for the OSAS interpretation of John 3:16. The mere phrase "eternal life" or "everlasting life" doesn't prove OSAS, unless you can show that eternal life is conditioned only on a once-for-all act of faith. Which I don't believe you can.

From a strict sola scriptura point of view, I don't think the issue is clear at all. There are texts which can be interpreted to support OSAS; there are many others which seem to contradict it. Either set of texts can be explained away if you start off with the other set. So radical "Bible only" Protestants should simply agree to differ on this one. Classical Protestants, who do pay attention to tradition as a secondary norm, should be very wary of a view that sprang from almost nothing in the 16th century. And those of us (Anglicans, some Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox) who believe that Scripture can't be separated from Tradition will have no reason even to give the notion the time of day.

Finally, as for the claim that a denial of OSAS leaves us under the law, this shows a lack of understanding of what OSAS deniers are saying. We believe that faith and repentance are _ongoing_, so that we have eternal life as long as we continue to repent of our sins and turn back to Christ in faith a nd love. This is Biblical salvation--not a one-time act that ensures our destiny for all eternity, but a continuing relationship of love, in which our sins are forgiven through Christ as long as we continue to repent and believe. And this is in fact the classic Reformed view--it's simply that the Reformed teach that this ongoing relationship is the inevitable result of God's sovereign choice to give us grace.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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BAChristian

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Contarini said:
And those of us (Anglicans, some Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox) who believe that Scripture can't be separated from Tradition will have no reason even to give the notion the time of day.
Edwin, in just your short time here, I've been amazed at the non-arrogant, non-combative tone of your posts.

You lead by a good example. More blessings for you...
 
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JWS said:
The bible says you must believe in the gospel to be saved - that you musn't add to or take away from Jesus' completed work in bridging the gap between man in his sins and God in his holiness that was done in his death and resurrection.

How can one know if he is sincere and believes vs and just 'talking the talk'. Does belief require complete understanding? Does belief require life-long adherence to belief (not trying to be a do-gooder in the hopes it will make you more saved)? We are imperfect, so how can we believe perfectly?
very good point

1cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain..who is this ...matt 7:21-23 may give a clue people working to do God's work
 
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sbbqb7n16

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Well then my thought is this:

How can I lose something that I don't own to lose?

If our salvation belongs to our God (Revelation 7:10, 19:1) then does He lose it? And at the same time, is He not able to do as He pleases with His own gift?

Should someone decide to leave the faith and blaspheme the Spirit of God, I think that God is more than able to not give salvation on the day of judgment to that person. But the fact remains that it is not our's to lose and Christ has promised that whosoever believes shall have eternal life. Remember also that God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19). Jesus has spoken that every man who believes at the coming of our Lord shall recieve eternal life.

My thoughts....
 
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SavedByGrace3

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A third time I am posting this.
(((Also I presented a reponse to 40 verses the were being used to deny OSAS. No responses to that either. I have to assume that you have no answers and cannot support your position beyond the cut and pasting of a list of scripture references..)))

It's my opinion, (and it's the doctrine that some Protestant churches teach) based on Scripture, that OSAS is nothing more than an excuse to sin every day and still get to heaven.



Trouble is, and I have never gotten a satisfactory answer to this from opponents of OSAS, we do sin a little every day. Whether you believe in OSAS or not, you do sin. Every day. And sometimes more than just a little. What you seem to miss is that if OSAS is false, then everyone (including you) is still lost and going to hell. Even you.
Are you going to hell? I cannot see how you could believe otherwise.

I realize you may attempt to construct some elaborate reasonings to explain why you are not not going to hell and OSASers are... but in the end you are sinking in your own boat.

(of course I do not believe you are going to hell, but I do think you are ignoring the plan facts)
 
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sbbqb7n16 said:
Well then my thought is this:

How can I lose something that I don't own to lose?

If our salvation belongs to our God (Revelation 7:10, 19:1) then does He lose it? And at the same time, is He not able to do as He pleases with His own gift?

Should someone decide to leave the faith and blaspheme the Spirit of God, I think that God is more than able to not give salvation on the day of judgment to that person. But the fact remains that it is not our's to lose and Christ has promised that whosoever believes shall have eternal life. Remember also that God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19). Jesus has spoken that every man who believes at the coming of our Lord shall recieve eternal life.

My thoughts....
amen
 
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Words have meanings. Salvation is a word that means healing to me. We can be healed and the disease will come back far worse than before because the behavior that got us sick in the first place has not been addressed.

A major problem with Americans in general is that we have been formed to use a reductionist, fractionated, linear, syntactic, divisive way of looking at life itself. And it is this problem of not being able to see the forrest for the trees that makes it difficult to communicate from an integrated and wholistic perspective.

I have had some exciting experiences that allowed me to change the way I had chosen to think about disease. In fact, as a scientifically oriented person, there was no real choice other than the one that was offered in the biological sciences for most of my life. But in 1992, as I was leaving my office for the last time, on my way to serve the poor in Guatemala, I took a book with me that had just arrived, Life Itself. It's author, Robert Rosen, after many years of placing his ideas on the discussion table, has not be refuted. He is a guide for a new way of looking at disease, whether of the soul or of the body/mind. He makes several interesting points which many scientists don't like, but have not yet been able to successfully challenge. He proves that all science is faith based. This make every scientist a religious person. He also proves the fallacy of the present model that is used to examine, diagnose and treat disease. Most of us never question the basic guiding concept of the thought that we use, but I had the experience of being challenged to develop my own personal philosophy for the prevention of disease, early in my carreer and the blessing of being given permission to change. Since I was also very much involved in religious education, I worked on developing my personal theology at the same time.

My main biological interest has been teeth and their relationship to the body whole. Early in my professional continuing education studies, I listend to a Jew, Bertram Krause, as he explained the results of a study of more than 3000 patients, correlating the anatomy of the teeth with various genetic defects. This was truly a remarkable discovery but it was soon eliminated from the curriculum and I did not know why. No one had proved him wrong. But, in 1978, I discovered a relationship between jaw position and muscle efficiency. And, a patient, from the Autonomous University of Mexico, The chairman of the department of biophysics, helped me to study this phenomenon and to report the findings. Since science requires confirmation by another independent perpective, we travelled to San Antonio, Texas where we asked the leadership of the U.Texas Health Science Center to do a follow-up study. We were greeted with laughter and derision. We were both told to bug off. That no studies to demonstrate relationships between teeth and other body parts would be done. The justification given was that it would create a large number of law suits that would harm the entire health delivery system. And so I discovered a conscious conspiracy on the part of our American University System to hide the truth. In 1982, I was asked to be a participant in a continuing education experiment on the subject of acupuncture. The Texas Board of Medical examiners had put two Chinese acupuncturists in Houston, Texas, in jail for practicing medicine without a license. The Federal court released them on the grounds that the medical school did not teach acupuncture and could therefore not regulate it. The course was offered to be able to limit this practice, not to understand it. To make a long story short, it got me interested in the entire area of Alternative Medicine, and in searching for a scientific source on whom I could depend. Jews became that source. Not all of them, because some, like the Jews in Aushwitz, sold out to the system in order to gain their applause. But Rosen had not sold out. He left and went to Canada and taught at the Dalhousie Medical School. His book has become an uncontested alternative to thinking about disease, using the model of natural language. The more we know about how and why people acquire their language, the better able we will be able to diagnose disease. I hope this gives you another perspective and the understanding that I have put my money where my mouth is by going to find solutions for disease in the poor that does not require them to buy products and services, the major corrupting influence on our American Health Care Delivery System.
 
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Lanakila

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Trouble is, and I have never gotten a satisfactory answer to this from opponents of OSAS, we do sin a little every day. Whether you believe in OSAS or not, you do sin. Every day. And sometimes more than just a little. What you seem to miss is that if OSAS is false, then everyone (including you) is still lost and going to hell. Even you.
Are you going to hell? I cannot see how you could believe otherwise.

I realize you may attempt to construct some elaborate reasonings to explain why you are not not going to hell and OSASers are... but in the end you are sinking in your own boat.

(of course I do not believe you are going to hell, but I do think you are ignoring the plan facts)

I will attempt to respond to this. The Bible says that we should persevere to the end, to be saved. In Hebrews it gives warnings against apostacy (turning away from the faith), and tells us in Corinthians to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. These passages teach that someone can indeed lose salvation. That although its free to us, Jesus paid the ultimate price for it, and he has some conditions on entering heaven. I am not saying works salvation by any means is taught in the scriptures, but faith salvation is stressed. We are commanded to have faith, and commended for that same faith, so its not a gift from God, but our part in the equation.

After being OSAS for about 15 years, I am convinced by the Bible that Christians can indeed lose salvation, by willfully turning from the faith, to unbelief. If you haven't met an atheist who used to be a Christian, go on over to General Apologetics, because it's full of them.
 
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Salvation is the product of choice. Jesus does nothing against our will. But for some of us, he puts us between a rock and hard place, like Jonah. You have a choice, to be digested by the beast or to go and do what He has told you do. Deliver the behavioral guidance truth to a degenerate people. And the first sin is in the form we adopt to think about living system problems. We are not organized from outside in, like the car is. We self-organize around what we believe will be our future role. Do you know what God has to say about that? Do you know who those people are who are dressed in white? spoken of in Revelation. Jesus did not wash those robes. He supplied His blood to be able to do that. Now can you make sense out of that? I have. And it is because I have made a fundamental change in the way I organize and interpret information. And it is the reason that you do not understand what I am saying. Your entire thinking form is based on the idea that you are organized like a car. Up until now, you really had no other choice. But I worship a revealing God, and we have just enterred an age when the extreme darkness is giving way to the rising sun. Hope it doesn't blind you. Read a little history about how we have come to know what we know to be truth and then be willing to toss much of it. We have entered the age of negative discovery. Galileo proved the world knowers wrong. James Cook proved the map makers wrong. Rosen has proved the life scientists wrong. And you must make a faith decision. Do not be misled by the justification that a word of knowledge is scientific. All science is faith based. It boils down to whether you believe that energy is the source of life or The Word. I pray that you will be given eyes to see the truth.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Lanakila said:
I will attempt to respond to this.....After being OSAS for about 15 years, I am convinced by the Bible that Christians can indeed lose salvation, by willfully turning from the faith, to unbelief. If you haven't met an atheist who used to be a Christian, go on over to General Apologetics, because it's full of them.
Thanks L,
I actually agree that it is possible for one to turn away. But it is not as easy as some say it is. It is not a matter of sinning or even habitual sinning. A person really has to know what they are doing before they can turn away and be lost. It is not something you can do by mistake or due to weakness. It, like being saved, has to be from the heart.
Thanks again for the response.
 
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eldermike

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We have to separate the regenerated mind from the regenerated heart. One is God's work the other is ours. God is Spirit, our connection to God is Spiritual, (since the fall), we do not walk physically with God in this life. The problem we have with understanding salvation is our limited senses, (see, hear taste, smell, touch) and the connection of these senses to our brain. What we see, we understand, we know what taste good,smells good, ect. But God says I will write the law upon your heart, Oops! we are not equipped to understand this, what on earth (under the sun) does this mean?

In the last verse of James 4 (look it up I don't have it in front of me) James says that Knowledge without works is sin. James is addressing the committed mind which is our response to a regenerated heart. He told also that faith without works is a dead faith (wasted). So James addressed both issues concerning our reaction to Gods love. God loves us first, (John 3:16, a regenerated heart) then we respond with a love for His word (knowledge and works).

Since it's our response to God that we are discussing here, how is it that we are responsible for more going than we were coming? If God regenerated my heart and my response to that is a Christian walk or nothing, how does this change God's action towards me? It doesn't, if we look at God Spiritually and apart from our limited senses.

The bible is not simply a law of don'ts. It is God's love letter to His elect. It's a way to know ourselves and His nature. It's the way to equip the Saints to properly respond to His love.

Regeneration is Gods work, falling away is our failure to respond but it's sin and not death, James made that clear to me. IMHO

Eldermike
 
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Lanakila said:
I will attempt to respond to this. The Bible says that we should persevere to the end, to be saved. In Hebrews it gives warnings against apostacy (turning away from the faith), and tells us in Corinthians to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. These passages teach that someone can indeed lose salvation. That although its free to us, Jesus paid the ultimate price for it, and he has some conditions on entering heaven. I am not saying works salvation by any means is taught in the scriptures, but faith salvation is stressed. We are commanded to have faith, and commended for that same faith, so its not a gift from God, but our part in the equation.

After being OSAS for about 15 years, I am convinced by the Bible that Christians can indeed lose salvation, by willfully turning from the faith, to unbelief. If you haven't met an atheist who used to be a Christian, go on over to General Apologetics, because it's full of them.
Have you ever heard of.........

intial salvation.....eph 1:4...John 16:7-11..Romans 4:5
present tense salvation.....Romans 10:14-21
future salvation ....1 thes 5:23

each is different......

are you saying that God doesn't Guard us in the Heavenlys like he promised[1peter 1:4] or is God slack in his promises [2 peter 3:9] definitely not

I think these people that came to your church and fell away was probly like Matt 7:21-23 ..people doing "godly works" to human standards but it was not GOD"S work

verses please not soulish feeling
 
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Lanakila

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Yes I have heard of those passages. Although I didn't quote chapter and verse I alluded to them. I will post them now:

Hebrews 12:25b If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after
we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. and following verses in chapter 10

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

This passage is scarry because it basically states that if you do turn away, that you cannot return. Heb 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spiirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

1 John 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are n the faith; test yourselves. Do you no realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

1 Timothy 1:19 holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

This is just with a little digging. Perseverance is taught, and commanded. I don't see scripturally that its a gift.
 
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Lanakila said:
Yes I have heard of those passages. Although I didn't quote chapter and verse I alluded to them. I will post them now:

Hebrews 12:25b If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

Yet I can still go since I is in Christ

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after
we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Hebrews 12:5-11 talks about chasteneth and scourgeth every son that he recieveth

add in Gal 4:6-7

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

This passage is scarry because it basically states that if you do turn away, that you cannot return. Heb 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spiirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

1 John 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are n the faith; test yourselves. Do you no realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

2 cor 13:5 examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be fake? different wording

1 Timothy 1:19 holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

But God still being Good to His Word still saves..
2peter 3:9

This is just with a little digging. Perseverance is taught, and commanded. I don't see scripturally that its a gift.
Only one thing is promised to use believe[romans 4:5] and ye will be saved on Judgemment day ..1thes 5:23

But in intial salavation we have choices whether to walk in the flesh or by the Spirit ..Gal 5:16-17 and if by the flesh God promises Hebrews 12:5-12 ... but if wise one can recieve eternal life right now day to day good living
 
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eldermike

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I think were going to be surprised when we get to heaven and meet a few folks we wrote off as lost. I also think some folks that wrote God off and lived in the world are going to have some hard questions to answer one day in heaven.

"Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" This is true, right?

If God writes His law on your heart, how could one become convinced that He doesn't exist?

"I was once a Christian", Not!

JAS 4:13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that.

If we say tomorrow I will be good, or do as I should, we boast. It is by Gods grace we are saved and His grace that keeps us saved. What part of this passage leaves room for me to plan my way to heaven?

Let us not boast about our works, our tomorrows, or judge the today's of others as we do not know their tomorrows either.

If you are saved, you are saved by the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

 
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suzie

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When you are saved you no longer live but Christ lives in you. His desires replace our own selfish ones. We are no longer our own but belong to Him. We are now part of the family of God--heirs to the kingdom.

So then tell me how one would "lose" something like that? How exactly would you move the Holy Spirit out of the very core and essense our your very being? That would also be in the very conflict of what God promises us.
 
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You are obviously very young or naive or both. True, Jesus/The Holy Spirit lives in you. He is the I Am, but you are still alive and well. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. He convicts you of the lies you believe and tell if you learn to relate to Him in dialoguing with other people, where two or more are gathered, He is present. Now, the problem is dying to yourself and living for Him. As long as you are relating to The Spirit and allowing your nature to change by your personal testimony to others at the risk of your life while in communion with the Blood of the Lamb, you can make it. His yoke is easy. But He never takes away your freedom to choose, hence, at any point that you allow yourself to take control, He will turn you loose. He is not a force. He is love.

Our relationship to Him is very much like the sexual relationship between a man and woman. He desires you very much and wants to plant His seed of Truth in you, but it is up to you to carry the baby and deliver it to the World. He is very different from the male persons in your life whose nature, once aroused cannot easily be stopped. He will back off immediately dying to His desire for you at whatever point that you say no. He is never a controller against our will. However there are few men in the world who can behave as He does.

The more you look to the Image of God in humans, the more you can understand His Word. He is a revealing God and so the meaning of His Word is continually undergoing clarification, amplification and revision. For that reason, the second most important decision you will ever make is the teaching authority you accept, the church you join. It will have a tradition, and a train of teachings which are basic concepts in which you must believe. Failing to have this anchor in your life is a disaster. My adopted church is the Roman Catholic. If you have questions I will be happy to answer them. Failing to accept your church doctrine and dogma is like being a boat on the water without anchor. You go in whatever direction the wind blows. I believe that the basic concepts of the R.C. Church Liturgy of the Mass are tried and tested and I accept them without reservation. This has been a blessing to my argumentative spirit.
 
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