Wasp Nest Design

john crawford

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I excerpted a couple of paragraphs from the following wesite on wasps in hopes of analyzing it for evidence of intelligence and design in nest building.

http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/vespids/intro.html

Social wasps use paper (wood pulp) to construct their nests. The process is simple... a wasp collects wood fiber by using its mandibles (mouth parts) to scrape it from worn and weathered wooden fences, buildings, telephone poles, and other sources. Sometimes it collects fiber from man-made paper products such as paper bags or cardboard boxes. The insect then chews the wood and mixes it with saliva. This makes the wood fiber extremely soft and moist. After a period of chewing, the wasp adds the paste to the nest structure and spreads it out with her mandibles and legs. After it thoroughly dries; a type of tough, durable paper is formed.

Most species of social wasps in the USA build their combs horizontally with cells located on the bottom of each one. Though there are a few species of Polistes wasps which hang their combs vertically with the cells facing to one side. These combs are primarily used for brood rearing. Little or no food exists in any of them because most social wasps do not store food. The reason for this is because wasp colonies feed on large numbers of caterpillars, bugs, flies, spiders, etc. and the meat would spoil if the wasps were to store it. In some species such as hornets and yellowjackets, a paper envelope (covering) is built around the combs. This serves as good insulation material since the covering consists of multiple layers of paper sheets. There are air pockets in between each one which help in maintaining a comfortable temperature inside the nest. Certain species of social wasps build open combs without any kind of protective covering, such as the Polistine wasps for instance.

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Valkhorn

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Yup. But I'm not sure what the point of the OP was. Are you suggesting that they had to have been created or designed?

In that case, I'd answer that yes, Wasp Nests were designed. But, not by some god or diety. They were designed by Wasps, who I'm certain have some sort of collective intelligence.

I'm not sure what the whole point of the ID movement is anyways. If it took intelligence to create some things, why assume that mankind or some sort of God is the only animal/entity that has some sort of intelligence? Dogs have intelligence, so do dolphins and frogs and even with insects there is a sort of collective intelligence.

This doesn't prove ID at all, and in fact ID cannot be proven. It's an excuse to explain something when no explaination can be found. You can never prove that something was created magically by another being outside of normal natural processes.
 
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john crawford

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Valkhorn said:
Yup. But I'm not sure what the point of the OP was. Are you suggesting that they had to have been created or designed?

In that case, I'd answer that yes, Wasp Nests were designed. But, not by some god or diety. They were designed by Wasps, who I'm certain have some sort of collective intelligence.

If it took intelligence to create some things, why assume that mankind or some sort of God is the only animal/entity that has some sort of intelligence? Dogs have intelligence, so do dolphins and frogs and even with insects there is a sort of collective intelligence.

This doesn't prove ID at all, and in fact ID cannot be proven. It's an excuse to explain something when no explaination can be found. You can never prove that something was created magically by another being outside of normal natural processes.
Not trying to "prove" anything here other than the fact that certain members of the Order of Hymenoptary display some signs of intelligence and order in their demonstrated ability to design suitable domestic abodes according to design specifications.

If other animals besides humans seem capable of living in self-created and structured building designs, why may those humble abodes not also be considered to be intelligently designed?
 
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Hydra009

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john crawford said:
Not trying to "prove" anything here other than the fact that certain members of the Order of Hymenoptary display some signs of intelligence and order in their demonstrated ability to design suitable domestic abodes according to design specifications.
Explain what you mean by "design specifications".

If other animals besides humans seem capable of living in self-created and structured building designs, why may those humble abodes not also be considered to be intelligently designed?
Because "intelligent design" means that some unknown being (wink wink God) created something exactly how it is without evolution. The fact that wasps construct nests doesn't support this claim.
 
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john crawford

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Irish_Guevara said:
Explain what you mean by "design specifications".

Because "intelligent design" means that some unknown being (wink wink God) created something exactly how it is without evolution. The fact that wasps construct nests doesn't support this claim.
Design specifications may be defined scientifically according to your own understanding of the natural and intelligent design of wasp nests by wasps.

The concept of intelligent design may infer nothing other than the fact that some biological structures in the animal world are intelligently designed.

If humans are animals, what right do humans have to deny the natural intelligence of other species or to deny the fact that members of the Order of Hymenoptera create intelligently designed structures in which to facilitate their continued evolution?
 
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john crawford said:
If humans are animals, what right do humans have to deny the natural intelligence of other species or to deny the fact that members of the Order of Hymenoptera create intelligently designed structures in which to facilitate their continued evolution?
Who denied that, exactly?
 
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john crawford

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bookaholic said:
Who denied that, exactly?
Fellow posters such as Ondoher, the Bellman and Dave Gould are good examples of evos who deny that intelligently designed phenomena occur in nature.

What about you?
 
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Hydra009

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john crawford said:
Design specifications may be defined scientifically according to your own understanding of the natural and intelligent design of wasp nests by wasps.
Please just answer the question directly. Here's what I think you mean: wasps create nests because of design specifications given to them by some unknown intelligent designer (wink wink God). How close am I?

The concept of intelligent design may infer nothing other than the fact that some biological structures in the animal world are intelligently designed.
It's also Begging the question - assuming the very thing it aims to prove.

"Biological structures are intelligently designed."
"How so?"
"Because an intelligent designer designed them."

If humans are animals, what right do humans have to deny the natural intelligence of other species or to deny the fact that members of the Order of Hymenoptera create intelligently designed structures in which to facilitate their continued evolution?
The wasps obviously create nests, and therefore have some kind of intelligence necessary for the buidling of nests. No one is disputing this. What is disputed is the unwarranted intelligent design conclusion which you arrive at from this observation.
 
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john crawford

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Irish_Guevara said:
Please just answer the question directly. Here's what I think you mean: wasps create nests because of design specifications given to them by some unknown intelligent designer (wink wink God). How close am I?

It's also Begging the question - assuming the very thing it aims to prove.

"Biological structures are intelligently designed."
"How so?"
"Because an intelligent designer designed them."

The wasps obviously create nests, and therefore have some kind of intelligence necessary for the buidling of nests. No one is disputing this. What is disputed is the unwarranted intelligent design conclusion which you arrive at from this observation.
Wasps create nests according to the design specifications programmed in waspish genes. You can wink, wink, wink about God all you like but science is only concerned with scientific intelligence and scientific design in nature, so you are "far, far off," indeed.

What "conclusions" have you prematurely "arrived at" regarding an unbiased discussion of intelligent designs in nature?
 
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Hydra009

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Wasps create nests according to the design specifications programmed in waspish genes. You can wink, wink, wink about God all you like but science is only concerned with scientific intelligence and scientific design in nature, so you are "far, far off," indeed.
Am I? Are you sure you aren't advocating Intelligent Design by hinting that someone or something "programmed the design specification" of wasps?

What "conclusions" have you prematurely "arrived at" regarding an unbiased discussion of intelligent designs in nature?
Here's my conclusion:

"The wasps obviously create nests, and therefore have some kind of intelligence necessary for the buidling of nests." - Irish_Guevara

Take your best shot. :)
 
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john crawford

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Irish_Guevara said:
Am I? Are you sure you aren't advocating Intelligent Design by hinting that someone or something "programmed the design specification" of wasps?

Here's my conclusion:

"The wasps obviously create nests, and therefore have some kind of intelligence necessary for the buidling of nests." - Irish_Guevara

Take your best shot. :)
I like your second shot since there is no evidence of intelligent design otherwise.
 
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What is being debated here exactly? ..I read the thread ..but I seem to have missed it.

Designs exist in nature that have natural, tangible causes/explanations ..hoorah, would you show where anyone appeared to be denying that birds nests, beaver dams, bowerbird mating displays etc were not designed by some sort of intelligence?

However, if you want to use this reasoning to help argue that flowers, eyes, the solar system etc have been designed by an intangible, unseen and intelligent designer ..you'll need to try harder.
 
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kingreaper

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john crawford said:
Design specifications may be defined scientifically according to your own understanding of the natural and intelligent design of wasp nests by wasps.

The concept of intelligent design may infer nothing other than the fact that some biological structures in the animal world are intelligently designed.

If humans are animals, what right do humans have to deny the natural intelligence of other species or to deny the fact that members of the Order of Hymenoptera create intelligently designed structures in which to facilitate their continued evolution?
Given thaty the wasps technology leel doesn't appear to be advancing at high speed, I wonder if its actually their intelligence, or just instincts

If you wanted to prove it was intelligence rather than instinct, a viable test for it would be to grow a new colony of wasps entirely without adults, and see if they construct a nest, or if they can only construct it when taught to by an adult
 
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a whole lot of stupid things can produce something intelligent. this is pretty evident in insect colonies, where there's tons of little dumb guys and they somehow manage to do something smart when working together.

for example, ants can work out the shortest path to food, or multiple food sources, fairly quickly. if their actions are simulated by computer (to take out the time it takes for them to actually move), it's actualy a lot faster than doing raw math calculations to find the best route.

termites can instinctively dig into wood and build their nests, which require lots of ventilation in arid parts of the world. they follow very few, relatively simple instincts: it's too hot in here, dig a hole. if there's another hole nearby, don't dig. this results in every nest being nicely ventilated, without comprimising strength, and no two nests are even remotely identical.
 
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john crawford

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P4g4nite said:
Designs exist in nature that have natural, tangible causes/explanations ..hoorah, would you show where anyone appeared to be denying that birds nests, beaver dams, bowerbird mating displays etc were not designed by some sort of intelligence?
A lot of posters seem to feel that intelligent design in biological structures implies a designer other than the animals which build the structures.

They don't seem to believe that natural selection can account for intelligently designed structures in nature.

They have trouble with the idea that design implies intent and purpose, and can't conceive that insects are capable of having intentions or purposes.
 
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john crawford

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kingreaper said:
Given thaty the wasps technology leel doesn't appear to be advancing at high speed, I wonder if its actually their intelligence, or just instincts

If you wanted to prove it was intelligence rather than instinct, a viable test for it would be to grow a new colony of wasps entirely without adults, and see if they construct a nest, or if they can only construct it when taught to by an adult
Why bother with tests when signs of intelligence may be witnessed by observation alone?
 
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john crawford

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Orihalcon said:
a whole lot of stupid things can produce something intelligent. this is pretty evident in insect colonies, where there's tons of little dumb guys and they somehow manage to do something smart when working together.

for example, ants can work out the shortest path to food, or multiple food sources, fairly quickly. if their actions are simulated by computer (to take out the time it takes for them to actually move), it's actualy a lot faster than doing raw math calculations to find the best route.

termites can instinctively dig into wood and build their nests, which require lots of ventilation in arid parts of the world. they follow very few, relatively simple instincts: it's too hot in here, dig a hole. if there's another hole nearby, don't dig. this results in every nest being nicely ventilated, without comprimising strength, and no two nests are even remotely identical.
Perhaps instincts form the basis of a developing intelligence.

I'll have to do some research on instincts and intelligence.
 
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john crawford

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The overwhelming support for animal intelligence is apparent upon doing a google for said subject.

Besides being intelligent, some species of insects are capable of designing their own homes.

ID theorists may rejoice.
 
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warispeace

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john crawford said:
The overwhelming support for animal intelligence is apparent upon doing a google for said subject.

Besides being intelligent, some species of insects are capable of designing their own homes.

ID theorists may rejoice.

I don't see how organization alone is evidence of intelligence. If that were true, that would make snowflakes and nautilus shells sentient beings.
 
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john crawford

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warispeace said:
I don't see how organization alone is evidence of intelligence. If that were true, that would make snowflakes and nautilus shells sentient beings.
Nautiloids may indeed be sentient beings. As for snowflakes and crystalized rocks, they may said to be designed or organized in accordance with the intelligent laws of physics which govern the crystalization process.

Colonial organization and the division of labor exhibited by insects based on their communication facilities is another matter. Here we see evidence of communicative intelligence on a grand scale in the ordering and purpose of the nested hierarchies of social beings like ants, wasps, bees and other intelligent insects.

As a matter of fact, Ondoher (a fellow poster on the forum) claimed on another thread that the observation of nested hierarchies formed the basis for a hypothetical explanation of them based on common descent.

Watch out for a similar hypothesis being developed based on our mutual observations of nested hierarchies in ant, bee and wasp colonies.

Coming soon to your favorite evo/creationist debate forum.
 
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