Christianity and Fascism

aragorn

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UnderdogEnt said:
Aragorn, it is true that some people mix their religion with their nationalism. You are absolutely correct that God should be a person's priority above their nation. You said, though, that an American Christian reacted as if you were a heretic when you criticised America. You do not say, however, that he actually called you a heretic. This man's reaction apparently did not really involve religion at all. He was defensive because you criticised his country (probably as anyone would be when their own coutnry is criticised) but he did not accuse you of being anti-Christian just because you were anti-American. Of course, I do not know the actual conversation that took place, but from what you posted it appears that he did not necessarily tie his nationalism and religion together. If I am wrong on this, please let me know and please accept my apologies.

No, she was a woman, and from the moment at which I pointed out that George Bush cheated in the election (by employing his brother to purge the electoral rolls in Florida of c.90,000 Black voters) she reacted as if I had criticised Jesus. She actually said. I'm not going to engage in this conversation any further because my husband wouldn't want me to talk to someone who's obviously on the wrong side of the truth. She also accused me of judgementalism because I judged Bush without having met him, but was happy to judge me, long before I made up my mind whether she was a dupe or a witting participant.
 
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Diatrive

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aragorn said:
I'm not going to engage in this conversation any further because my husband wouldn't want me to talk to someone who's obviously on the wrong side of the truth.

I can't even begin to think about how completely twisted that statement is and how sorry I feel for that person.
 
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Outspoken

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foolsparade said:
Outspoken, you really dont understand the connection here, as usual. When did I say "only past events" give me a break dude! I even used pres. Bush as an example in the OP. If you dispute my connection and similarities in ideologies of Fascism and Christianity then hit me with your best shot. If not, then go away..http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/sleep.gif
"If you dispute my connection and similarities in ideologies of Fascism and Christianity then hit me with your best shot."

Again, you're not reading my post. Per your definition, ALL ideaologies fit it, including atheism, agnostic, etc..
 
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foolsparade

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Hi UnderdogEnt, I am not saying examples of corruption within Christian belief. Fascism has similarities with Chrsitian doctrine. You write; "Christians are commanded to be good citizens and to obey the laws of their lands as long as those laws are not themselves immoral or unjust." interesting and commanded by who?? you write: "Christianity does demand that if Christians are nationalists that their first allegiance must still be to God" thanks again! you make my life easy.

When you mention "other pascifists" do mean Jesus?

You write: " One cannot make an analogy of the worship of something imperfect and corrupt to the worship of something perfect and which is the ultimate good."

worshipping the state? perhaps the better word should be as in your own words "commanded!" how can you make that connection to something perfect when you yourself admit that we are incapable of this analogy????

you write: "In worshiping the Christian God, though, one worships one who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, loving, just and merciful."

please provide evidence of this, or at least ONE example that verifies your claim.. thanks..:(

You can deal with that for now but really everything you have written is in dispute not only by me but by your fellow Christians.:prayer:
 
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foolsparade said:
Hi UnderdogEnt, I am not saying examples of corruption within Christian belief. Fascism has similarities with Chrsitian doctrine. You write; "Christians are commanded to be good citizens and to obey the laws of their lands as long as those laws are not themselves immoral or unjust." interesting and commanded by who?? you write: "Christianity does demand that if Christians are nationalists that their first allegiance must still be to God" thanks again! you make my life easy.
Christians are commanded to do this by the Bible (Romans 13:1-7).

foolsparade said:
When you mention "other pascifists" do mean Jesus?
I used the example of Quakers as a denomination of Christians that are pacifists. There may be other pacifistic Christian denominations that I do not know of, but in many denominations there are some people who believe that war is always wrong. The righteousness of war is not agreed on by all Christians and so it would be wrong to say that Christians as a whole are militaristic.

foolsparade said:
You write: " One cannot make an analogy of the worship of something imperfect and corrupt to the worship of something perfect and which is the ultimate good."

worshipping the state? perhaps the better word should be as in your own words "commanded!" how can you make that connection to something perfect when you yourself admit that we are incapable of this analogy????
In your definition of fascism you said that it stressed the subordination of the individual to the state. I could not see how this was like Christianity (besides that Christians are to submit to authority which is Christian doctine but is not stressed as it is in fascism) so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were relating subordination of the individual to the state to subordination of the individual to God. I spoke of "worshipping the state" because the extreme nationalism of fascism comes close to doing that. I am sorry about the confusion, I didn't make that nearly as clear as I should have.

foolsparade said:
you write: "In worshiping the Christian God, though, one worships one who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, loving, just and merciful."

please provide evidence of this, or at least ONE example that verifies your claim.. thanks..:(
Whether you believe in the Christian god or not, whether He exists or not, this is the god that Christianity believes in. Because we are discussing the attributes of Christianity you must consider the Christian perspective of God.

foolsparade said:
You can deal with that for now but really everything you have written is in dispute not only by me but by your fellow Christians.:prayer:
I do not know of any points that I made that are in dispute with my fellow Christians; if you could give me some examples I would appreciate it. I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion. God bless!
 
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aragorn said:
No, she was a woman, and from the moment at which I pointed out that George Bush cheated in the election (by employing his brother to purge the electoral rolls in Florida of c.90,000 Black voters) she reacted as if I had criticised Jesus. She actually said. I'm not going to engage in this conversation any further because my husband wouldn't want me to talk to someone who's obviously on the wrong side of the truth. She also accused me of judgementalism because I judged Bush without having met him, but was happy to judge me, long before I made up my mind whether she was a dupe or a witting participant.
Thank you Aragorn, I'm sorry that I assumed the wrong gender of the American (that's embarrassing). Still, my point was that the person never actually accused of being religiously wrong, though she did accuse you of being politically and even morally wrong. It definitely sounds as if she overreacted and behaved badly when she met opposition to her point of view. I must also agree that many people (possibly including her) confuse their nationalism and politics for their religion but this is not an example of Christianity calling for extreme nationalism. This is more of an example of a person making an error in distinguishing what categories their beliefs fall into. Christianity only becomes a vessel of extreme nationalism when one distorts it into becoming that; without being corrupted Christianity does not call for extreme nationalism. Once again, I am sorry about making wrong assumptions about your conversation. I was wrong in doing that and will be more careful about assuming. God bless!
 
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foolsparade

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"In your definition of fascism you said that it stressed the subordination of the individual to the state. I could not see how this was like Christianity (besides that Christians are to submit to authority which is Christian doctine but is not stressed as it is in fascism) so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were relating subordination of the individual to the state to subordination of the individual to God."

You gave ME the benefit of doubt? "God", "the state" the "holy ghost" or whatever, can you not see the connection and mindset? I believe ideologies are connected to general outcomes of culture.

You sound like a reasonable person and I am thankful for that. I am an atheist by the way. I am one who does not hide behind who I really am. I say what I feel and often it come across as being antagonistic, but I am really a nice guy.:wave:

you write;"Whether you believe in the Christian god or not, whether He exists or not, this is the god that Christianity believes in. Because we are discussing the attributes of Christianity you must consider the Christian perspective of God."

That is in dispute among fellow Christians not just freewheeling, beer drinking, life saving hombre's like me.
 
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Foolsparade, I have to apologize for saying I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I did not mean it in an insulting or antagonistic way, but I definitely see how it came off sounding that way. I try to never be insulting but I obviously fail, whether I mean to or not. I had guess that you were an atheist, or at least an agnostic. As far as the Christian perspective of God goes, I have never heard of a Christian having a different view of God and that is the way He is presented traditionally in Christianity.

You said, "I believe ideologies are connected to general outcomes of culture." I will take the risk of being wrong and guess that you are talking about the outcome that Christianity has had on the American culture. I, personally, do not think that the American culture can be viewed as the outcome of the Christian perspective anymore, as it has increasingly become more and more secularized and has cut off Christian roots. My view could definitely be disputed, but I believe that the American culture as a whole has been impacted as greatly by atheism, secularization, the New Age movement, Postmodernism, and evolutionism as it has by Christianity. By the way, I do not want to start a debate about the New Age movement, Postmodernism or evolution for those would each need a thread of their own (and they have them). I am just saying that I believe these views have had a big impact on American culture. Until later, God bless!
(PS: I am sorry if the "God bless" is taken as being offensive to those who do not believe in God. I do believe in Him though, and so I say it truly as a benediction.)
 
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aragorn

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UnderdogEnt said:
Thank you Aragorn, I'm sorry that I assumed the wrong gender of the American (that's embarrassing). Still, my point was that the person never actually accused of being religiously wrong, though she did accuse you of being politically and even morally wrong. It definitely sounds as if she overreacted and behaved badly when she met opposition to her point of view. I must also agree that many people (possibly including her) confuse their nationalism and politics for their religion but this is not an example of Christianity calling for extreme nationalism. This is more of an example of a person making an error in distinguishing what categories their beliefs fall into. Christianity only becomes a vessel of extreme nationalism when one distorts it into becoming that; without being corrupted Christianity does not call for extreme nationalism. Once again, I am sorry about making wrong assumptions about your conversation. I was wrong in doing that and will be more careful about assuming. God bless!

Well in fairness to her, I also overreacted when I met opposition to my point of view.

I would never accuse Christianity of being fascist by nature. That would be insane. ~But given the activities of George Bush and others, its starting to be understandable from non-believers.

I think the difference between my overreaction and hers, is that mine was the result of genuine anger because its her kind of belief that is doing all the running in terms of what's going on in the world, and mine that has to make up so much ground. And moreover capitalism dressed in the robes of Christ is taking this world to utter destruction, or worse, hell on earth.
 
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foolsparade

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UnderdogEnt: Hello person of earth. Please apologize no more. I have already seen your good intentions. There are some that belive that Christ was only a "God" of love. That individualism was paramount. Look at the actions of Jesus himself. What did he do exactly? Did he fight his executioners? Did he condemn his executioners? What did he say to the theif on the cross? This is perhaps an issue for another thread...

No, i'm not talking about an outcome but more of a consequence. Fascism, at leats what I am trying to connect is that general populations of western{american} culture has an ingrained desire to be led. In the past I myself have felt this sensation. You feel it. Hence your religiousity. But there are those who chose to rebell such as I.

Michel Foucault writes: " the major enemy, the strategic adversary is fascism. And not only historical fascism, the fascism of Hitler and Mussolini- which was able to mobilize and use the desire of the masses effectively-but also the fascism in all of us, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."
 
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Foolsparade, I've finally grasped your point. Yes, I have to agree that the general populations of western culture have an ingrained desire to be led. However, I also believe that people from eastern cultures, and truthfully, every culture have a need to be led. The only major difference is that western countries currently offer more freedoms (generally speaking of course, there are free countries throughout the world now) so that the people get to choose to be led. In countries that do not offer such freedoms, the citizens are forced to be led. I believe that if the citizens of countries that lack civil liberties were given them, they would want to be led but they would want to be able to choose who or what they follow. Of course, this can't be said for sure; how could a testable hypothesis ever be developed for that theory? Until later, God bless.
 
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Aragorn, I both disagree and agree with your statement that capitalism dressed in the robes of Christianity is bringing the world to utter destruction. If by that you mean that capitalism is bringing the world to utter destruction, I have to disagree. Capitalism seems to me like one of the best, if not the best, economic systems ever developed. That is really a matter of opinion though, depending on what you value in an economic system.

If however, you meant that capitalism dressed in the robes of Christianity, is bringing destruction I would lean more towards agreeing. Anything using Christianity as a means to an end is not doing the right thing, though nonChristians will disagree I believe that you and I, Aragorn, can agree on that. God is the end, and not ever the means to an end. Still, I do not believe that capitalism in the guise of Christianity would bring utter destruction to the world, though anything falsely using Christianity could bring shame to the name of Christ which indeed would be a great wrong. God bless!
 
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It is interesting to see fascists projecting fascism on the belief they hate. It is nothing new. Communists have always deluded their people into believing Christianity to be a seditious ideology. Atheists have labeled themselves free-thinkers while they mass murdered their citizens through communist governments. Over 100, 000, 000 citizens spanning from Cambodia, to China, to the former Soviet Union, were butchered by Left leaning dictators in the twentieth century alone (more deaths than the sum total of all recorded wars in history combined), who hated individual liberty, genuine free thought, and Christianity the womb from which they sprang. Today, left wing snipes caricature Christians and Christianity as oppressive, yawnnnn. Christians are of course bigots, homophobes, anti-female, killers of the enivornment, punishers of criminals, anti-liberty, fascists, ...the same dialectical lie, rehashed throughout every category of life. Marx would be sooo proud. These are typical projections spawned in the soul of those who drink the communist koolaid without criticism. Yes they are communists or liberal socialists, not far off. Just watch their coming hysteria, if you don't believe me. If you have read the former posts, many of them, you would think that there is no absolute truth, except of course for the accusers of Xny. You see, their truth, is absolute, yet strangely they impugn the notion that absolutes exist. Yet if absolutes exist, fascists spawn out of them, like right-wing Christians, except of course their own absolutism, fanaticism, their own fascism. The hypocrisy, projectionism, and deceit are plainly visible.
They are playing games here, because their lives are essentially without meaning, their worlds miserable, and their natures evil. They need therefore to make the rest of us miserable. That is their legacy, their mission, the legacy they will stand before Christ with. "We accused your people of tyranny in order to injure them, we came to their sites in order to destroy their doctrine, your doctrine, we lived our lives in antagonism toward you and your people. What sin have we committed?" They need to hear that God's future world will be a monarchy, and they will be cast into hell, lest they repent of their sad and evil lives, and turn to the living Christ, like the rest of us who are saved. Of course the mention of hell is a grevious violation of free thought, you see, to them. For it reveals that our current actions, deeds, and thoughts, have consequences in the afterlife, and that must be expunged, villified, and beat down at all costs before somebody gets convicted. It is against my freedom to do evil.
Oh, and by the way, Christianity in the West is cheifly responsible for the promotion of self-government and individual liberty. Yes, that is why the liberals, socialists, communists, and Islam hate us. Because they want to control the economies of the world, the vocational aspirations of its citizens, and their thoughts; but, gosh darnit those bloody Americans keep getting in the way. Those Americans, who cherish individual liberty, grounded in the doctrines of the dignity of man, found in the Old and New Testaments. Those Protestants who have promoted the work ethic that has revolutionized the west, and indited the socialists, commies, and Islamo fascists. Those Protestants who resisted tyrannical forms of Christianity in Rome, and promoted an individualism which birthed a myriad of protestant views which led to a diversity of Chrurches. Alas we discover, it is the communism and socialism of Europe that makes men sheep, easily led to the trofts of government, to redistributiuon schemes bent on destroying self-government, who prop up criminal governments to loot the citizenry, and trust in them.
They will continue to spew their own tyranny on us and parade it before us all daily, until God brings history to its final day, and thus will end their foolsparade, and commence the revelation of their hate before the whole moral universe. Sadly.
 
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tcampen

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Oh, and by the way, Christianity in the West is cheifly responsible for the promotion of self-government and individual liberty.
If that's true, then its' ironic how today some (right-wing, conservative) Christians who are trying to take away individual liberty and self-government, and replace it with a modified theocracy, using revisionist history for support.

And I agree that Stalin, Mao and their Ilk ruthlessly took millions of lives. But their weren't true Athiests any more than those who took part in the Inquisition were true Christians - if that's one's position. They used the power they had to brutally maintain control and squash dissidents. Their religious or non-religious beliefs were irrelevant in that pursuit. True, Stalin and Mao had greater ability to do harm than their religious counterparts that preceeded them, but there is no reason to believe the Church during the 300+ years of the Inquisition wouldn't have done just as much killing in its own day if it had the modern resources of those communist leaders.

Thus, it would be dinsingenuous to argue "sure there have been some pretty nasty events in Christianity, but the Atheists have killed more, so they are worse." When fully realized, we are not talking about atheists are killers without morals, or Christians are killers without morals. Rather, these are examples of bad people using their power to do bad things in order to maintain their position of power - regardless of their imputed religious identity.

As for converting "liberal" into a four-letter-word....let's not. Not all things liberal are bad, and not all things conservative are good. We can make lists and point out instances of good and bad on both sides, and get nowhere. So rather than make blanket generalizations, why not be honest and truthful, and examine the issues individually and on their own merit.

Just a thought.
 
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