I was just reading through the posts and I would like to address many of them in this one posting so please forgive the disorder:
To all who are saying that examples of corruption in Christians makes the Christian belief fascist, I would have to disagree. To judge a belief system, you must judge the merits and errors of the system; by judging those who follow a belief system you will only find what the believers are like, not the beliefs. Some Democrats murder people; some Republicans murder people: does this automatically mean that Republicanism and Democracy support murder? Not at all.
Christianity does not support nationalism or militarism. Christians are commanded to be good citizens and to obey the laws of their lands as long as those laws are not themselves immoral or unjust. Some Christians may be nationalists, Christianity neither forbids nor commands this practice, but Christianity does demand that if Christians are nationalists that their first allegiance must still be to God. Aragorn, it is true that some people mix their religion with their nationalism. You are absolutely correct that God should be a person's priority above their nation. You said, though, that an American Christian reacted as if you were a heretic when you criticised America. You do not say, however, that he actually called you a heretic. This man's reaction apparently did not really involve religion at all. He was defensive because you criticised his country (probably as anyone would be when their own coutnry is criticised) but he did not accuse you of being anti-Christian just because you were anti-American. Of course, I do not know the actual conversation that took place, but from what you posted it appears that he did not necessarily tie his nationalism and religion together. If I am wrong on this, please let me know and please accept my apologies.
Christianity has never supported militarism. Although many Christians support war when it is fought for a just cause (according to the "Just War Principles") some Christians never support war (such as the Quakers and other pacifists). The Christian's take on what their role in war should be is debated even within the Christian community and therefore it is wrong to say that Christianity definitely supports war. All of the antagonists will doubtless now lunge at the chance to point towards the Crusades as an example of Christian militarism. Yes, I would agree that the crusades are in fact an example of Christian militarism and that they are in fact an awful blemish that the church may never be able to wipe away. Although the crusades were carried out by Christians, though, I do not believe that the crusades themselves should be called Christian. They were and are against Christian principles and were carried out mainly as a political move with a religious facade. Still, I will not deny that they were awful and that I can understand why people are repulsed at the thought of them.
Christianity also not does stress the subordination of the individual to the state. It does, as I mentioned above, command Christians to obey the laws of their land, but it does not stress all-out subordination to their nation. I believe that by this point, Foolsparade, you more meant that Christianity stresses subordination of the individual to God. This is true, but it is not the same as being subordinate to the state. In being subordinate to the state, one is worshiping something man-made, fallible, and corrupt. In worshiping the Christian God, though, one worships one who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, loving, just and merciful. You may not, and probably do not, believe in the Christian God, but this is the God that Christianity (and myself, though that is unrelated at the present moment) lifts up and believes in. One cannot make an analogy of the worship of something imperfect and corrupt to the worship of something perfect and which is the ultimate good.
Zao77, martyrs do not harm themselves. They accept death rather than deny their beliefs, but they do not kill themselves. If they were to do that, it would be suicide which is a sin. Some Christians through the ages have harmed and punished themselves physically as an act of penitence, but such acts are not condoned in Scripture. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, we find that the Christian's body is God's temple and that anyone who harms it will himself be harmed. So to harm oneself would be sinful and not a truly Christian practice.
Burnt Toast, I believe you are wrong about the Nazis being closely tied with German churches in the 30's. Some of the most outspoken Germans against the Nazis were Christian pastors. Yes, more should have and could have been done by the people, but I doubt that anyone expects that their government could become so evil. There were some churches, undoubtedly, that were tied to the Nazis. These would have been state churches in which the pastor is placed by the government and closely censored. One cannot expect a government official acting as a faux clergyman to truly represent Christian principles. If you know of ties between Nazis and German churches please share the information and sources with me.
Diatrive, you are correct, the actions of a philosophy's founders are not the only way by which to measure a philosophy's merits. In the same way, neither are the actions of a philosophy's followers the way in which a philosophy should be measured. A pure measurement of a philosophy would not measure it by its followers actions at all but by the philosophy's beliefs. Hence, while we can see corruption in all Christians (including myself) we cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater. Christianity, if it is to be judged purely philosophically, should not consider the actions of its followers at all.
Feral, you have undoubtedly heard many Christians speak of their lowliness, but it sounds as if the point they were trying to make was not conveyed clearly enough. Christianity does not make individuals out to be worthless at all. In the Christian belief, every man and woman is a child of God, created in His own image. In fact, we are so precious that God gave His very life to save us from eternal death. Yes, all mankind has fallen and become corrupt and sinful but we are still precious to God and therefore have inherit value. When Christians speak of their lowliness it is because they are comparing their sinful selves to God's perfection. We are nothing in comparison to God and would be nothing without him. Causing oneself physical harm is addressed above. The rules that Christians follow are not meant to repress them at all. You may see the rules as the close walls of an all-too-small cage, but that is not the Christian perspective. In our perspective the rules are more like the rails along a mountain road, meant to keep us from falling off the cliff to danger. The rules keep us safe and happy instead of locking us in.
Fiendishjester, you said that God is pretty fascist. I would say that God is more like a monarchist, and that He is the king. This may sound unfair in our modern democratic world, but God is perfect, just, merciful, good, loving and the Creator of everything. You may not believe in His existence but you have to admit that if such a god exists, he surely could do a much better job running things alone than we humans could as a democracy.
I'll be back soon to see what you all think, I'm open to discussion. God bless!
(Please forgive any spelling errors, I was typing quickly.)
You characterize chrisitanity as facist based on past events when in fact all belief systems from atheist, agnostic, theist, etc...have all had these events in the "past" Thus your just building strawmen to burn and bait people. Though you always did that before, so no big surprise.
