Maybe the men of Nineveh's resurrection mentioned in Matthew 12:41, was the same resurrection mentioned elsewhere in Matthew 27:52-graves opened.
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You didn't point out how either appearance you showed required that Jesus went to heaven before his ascension or has returned to the earth since his ascension in Acts 1.I offered the post to show how multiple appearances of Christ can occur without violating the numbering system
Our being the bride and the guests at the same time is as odd as our being the bride and the brother and the sister and the mother and the children of Jesus all at the same time: "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50), "Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them?" (Matthew 9:15) And is as odd as Israel being the son and the bride and the children of God all at the same time: "Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22), "Turn, O backsliding children, saith YHWH; for I am married unto you" (Jeremiah 3:14).it does seem a bit odd that God is always portrayed as the Father, Jesus is always the bridegroom, but the bride can be the bride, ten virgins, wedding guests, and friends of the bridegroom
"The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).It's a pity Jesus doesn't have to follow GOD's law
Note what God says to Israel even after divorcing her: "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you" (Jeremiah 3:14), and note what Israel says: "I will go and return to my first husband" (Hosea 2:7).the divorced wife of God (Israel)
The Apostles to whom John 15:15 was spoken are the very foundation of the bride (Revelation 21:9, 14).the disciples were 'friends of the bridegroom' because they couldn't be the bride
Again, I believe the OT saints are now also part of the bride, for even though at one time they weren't yet (compare Matthew 16:18, Luke 7:28) because they died before the cross and before Pentecost, I believe that after the resurrection Jesus went and preached to them (1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:6) and led them up into heaven with him (Ephesians 4:8-10). I believe the old covenant was abolished on the cross, so that Christ was able to join all the saints previously under the old covenant and all the saints under the new covenant into one body (Ephesians 2:12-19, 4:4-6), which body is his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32). Now all believers are after the cross and after Pentecost.the OT saints would be wedding guests, because they couldn't be the bride
I believe there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ: "We are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32).some who are in Christ's body aren't necessarily the bride
I don't believe any OT scripture rules out a post-trib rapture, or requires a pre-trib rapture.you insist we ignore OT scripture which rules out a post-trib rapture
I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming.Corinthians doesn't say '2nd coming'
I believe that is the 2nd resurrection.how do you explain Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it
I believe John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:32-46 refer to the 2nd resurrectionwe see Jesus portraying a resurrection and judgment of the righteous and wicked at the same time
If Daniel 12:2 refers to the 1st resurrection, I believe the shame would be that of the wicked, lazy Christian servant, for "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) "Thou wicked and slothful servant... Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:26, 30). "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (1 Peter 1:17).Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
Can you cite the OT verses I have refused to consider, so we can see what they say?you refuse to consider any OT verse
Originally posted by postrib
Would Jesus need to force those who returned with Him to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him? (Zechariah 14:16-18) Would we need to rule those who returned with Him with a rod of iron? (Revelation 2:26-29)
I believe the pre-trib doctrine could be setting the church up for great disappointment and confusion and the falling away from the faith: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith"
My only concern is if there isn't a pre-trib rapture that nobody think that something has gone wrong.
Originally posted by postrib
Our being the bride and the guests at the same time is as odd as our being the bride and the brother and the sister and the mother and the children of Jesus all at the same time: "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50), "Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them?" (Matthew 9:15) And is as odd as Israel being the son and the bride and the children of God all at the same time: "Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22), "Turn, O backsliding children, saith YHWH; for I am married unto you" (Jeremiah 3:14).
Originally posted by postrib
Note what God says to Israel even after divorcing her: "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you" (Jeremiah 3:14), and note what Israel says: "I will go and return to my first husband" (Hosea 2:7).
Originally posted by postrib
"The Apostles to whom John 15:15 was spoken are the very foundation of the bride (Revelation 21:9, 14).
Originally posted by Willis Deal
2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.
Deu 20:7 And what man [is there] that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.
Deu 24:5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: [but] he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.
Is there a verse that requires this?...If everyone who is lost on Earth at the Second Coming is killed...
Will all the lost on the earth be in the armies at Armageddon?...we saw in Revelation 19, they were all killed...
Someone who believes the rapture is after the tribulation doesn't look for the Antichrist instead of Christ, just as a pregnant woman doesn't look for birth pangs instead of the birth of her child, but they know what must come first (1 Peter 4:12-13). Christ's coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).We should not be looking for the Antichrist, but for Christ
I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).the superiority of the Pre-trib position. One of imminnence, watchfulness, and hope
Exactly my point....God uses different examples to compare our relationship to him and to Christ...
As much as "the same is my brother, AND sister, AND mother" (Matthew 12:50) violates the family example?It violates the continuity of the wedding example
Yes. Can a Jew avoid hellfire apart from faith in Christ? Can a Jew have faith in Christ without being part of the bride? For all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32).she will RETURN to her FIRST husband
"There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).you ignore the old testament and make Christ a transgressor of the law
They are part of the first resurrection.you can't make up your mind about whether the righteous of the OT are part of the first resurrection or part of the second resurrection
Did Ninevah remain righteous? (Nahum 3) Will those in "this generation" of Luke 11:32 rise in the 1st resurrection of believers?you say of the righteous men of ninevah "I believe that is the 2nd resurrection."
I believe Jesus did fulfill the law and the prophets just as he said he would (Luke 24:44-48), and so was able to abolish the law on the cross (Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14). I believe the old covenant was disannulled by the new covenant (Hebrews 7:18, 12).Jesus himself said that the law of moses was about Jesus, that all must be fulfilled
"The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).Deu 24:5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: [but] he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.
Jesus' making war after his marriage won't separate him from us in any way, as we will be descending to Armageddon right behind him: "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white.... Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb... And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Revelation 19:7, 8, 9, 11, 14).makes a special rule so that nasty things like war doesn't interfere with that love
Originally posted by postrib:
Will all the lost on the earth be in the armies at Armageddon?
Originally posted by Debbie
Willis, I didnt see in Matthew 27 that the graves which opened, were IN Jerusalem, but rather that these resurrected saints went into & appeared in Jerusalem. Their graves could have been anywhere on Earth, IMO.
I guess that would depend on whether they were resuscitated like Lazurus, or part of the first fruits which have resurrected with immortal bodies. If they were resuscitaed, they couldn't walk to Jerusalem, but if they were part of the first fruit resurrection, they could appear in the holy city from any grave on earth.
I see all sides here, except questioning whether or not this should be discussed. "the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy". Case closed. (REv.19:10)
Originally posted by Debbie
If Jesus is still under the law, then Willis is right about the rapture having to occur at least a year before Armageddon.
Cor. nor Thess. show a distinction between the 2nd coming or rapture, as if they are one event.
A pretrib rapture is just not scriptural, IMO. I feel compelled as other posters here, to tell other pretribbers the same thing for fear of some losing faith or living in fear when a pre trib rapture doesnt occur. Strange that we feel the same motive for spreading the word. I agree that we should always be watchful & always ready, as all here agree.)
Originally posted by Debbie
If Jesus is still under the law, the only virgins ,(proper bride),mentioned are the 144,000 Messianic Jews. The rest of us could be guests.
Originally posted by postrib
What is the blessed hope? "In hope of eternal life," "That blessed hope," "The hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7). How can it be mutually exclusive with going through tribulation? "We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4). "Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation" (Romans 12:12).
I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).
I don't believe I have ignored anything regarding the marriage analogy.What you have not done is shown a compelling reason to ignore what God says about marriage when he gives us a marriage analogy
I believe New Jerusalem is where the Father will dwell with us after the millenium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3). "I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it... The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it" (Revelation 21:22, 22:3).NJ being a SYMBOL of the bride, who is actually a group of people, and not actually the place where the bride lives
On what basis would the Apostles not be part of the bride? "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Revelation 21:9, 14). "God hath set some in the church, first apostles" (1 Corinthians 12:28). "Ye... are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (Ephesians 2:19-21).that the NAMES of the apostles that are WRITTEN on the stones of the foundation could imply that they are part of the bride, since this is all symbolic it could have another meaning as well
I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any moment, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).From an eschatalogical view, however, I believe the Blessed Hope is that Christ could return at any moment
Originally posted by postrib
I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any moment, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).
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How does this require that he can come at any moment?Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Why would this be necessarily true?If you don't think the Resurrection and Rapture can occur at any moment, then you are just like someone that thinks death could not occur at any moment
Note that no verse says this.But the Resurrection and Rapture can occur at any moment
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).Only God knows the day and hour
Originally posted by postrib
Here I believe Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe he taught a 3rd coming.
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