The Religion Of Hatred...

mo.mentum · Sep 14, 2003

desi said:
mo.mentum your comparison is false because God/Jesus never said kill all x people who do not believe in me throughout history. Mohammed did! He said 'offer them the chance to convert, if they decline kill them

I won't hold it against you that you hold these views. Ignorance and stereotypes abound these days.

FIRST OF ALL. No! It was never said "give them a chance to convert then kill them". You're thinking of the crusades.

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in false idols and believes in God, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And God is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (Q2:256)

As i explained before and keep on re-explaining. Those verses of which you speak are taken out of context. The Bible has violent statements that are just as bad. So don't play self-righteous on me. So let's look at these verses of which you speak in full context. We're not supposed to take the word of God in sound bytes. He's no sleazy politician.

And fight in the Way of God those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, God loves not the transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And oppression is far worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the sanctuary at Makkah, unless they first fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers But if they cease, then God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
And fight them until there is no more disbelief and worship is for God Alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against the oppressors. (Qur'an2: 190-193)

So you see. We're instructed to only fight those who fight us. And if they stop, then we must stop. We fight those who have kicked us out of our homes or those who oppress us. But if they cease, then God is Merciful towards us and them. Get your facts and information straight.

Now we have Muslims from Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Britain, the United States, Palestine, and Saudi Arabia joining terrorist groups such as Al Queda to attack the western world. While I can understand their aversion to western ideals their methods and ideals are right out of the Koran. 'The reward for one night spent fighting for Allah is better than fasting for a month.' 'Martyrs for Allah will receive 70 virgins.' etc...

Iraq: They're under military occupation and none of the benefits promised them have materialized. There isn't even running water or electricity yet!

Afghanistan: The US helped create the Taliban in the 80s to fight the Soviets Union. What goes around comes around.

Iran: It's a democratic country and they haven't attacked anyone. Who are they attacking, I beg you to specify.

Palestine: civil rights and the right to self-determination are the main articles of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. You get kicked out of your land then we'll see how you feel.

SaudiArabia: Poeple are disenfranchized by the "royality" which has no legitemacy and was installed there by the British imperial powers after WW1. Why should a king which wasn't chosen by a people, allow foreign armies to station on their land which is considered holy by all Muslims?

The West has done nothing but exploit the region for the last 200 years. You don't think people would develop a natural aversion and suspicion to western ideals? Only lately have there been more equitable exchanges.

Come on. You need deepen your analysis of things in the world. There is no black or white. "With us or against us". That's kindergarden school yard talk.

As for the 70 virgins. No where does it seventy virgins in the Qur'an, ANYWHERE. This goes to show your limited knowledge about Islam and it's values. Thank you.

Maybe you are referring to this verse, which has nothing to do with martyrdom. What's so wrong anyway with fighting in the cause of God? Are we all so attached ot this fleeting life that we should cower away from fighting injustice and oppression? Or just say "this is the way things are" and let it be?

Verily, We have created them (maidens) of special creation. And made them virgins. Loving (their husbands only), equal in age. (Q56:35-37)

This speaks of the many rewards that await us in Paradise. There is no sin or guilt in paradise. Pleasure is permitted, our dreams are to become true. Isn't that the point of heaven?! Unlike in Christianity, in Islam, sexual relaitons are seen as an important part of the life of a couple and are encouraged. Illegal premarital sex is frowned upon of course. But between husband and wife, it is to be enjoyed in every possible way. So why not in Paradise?!

mo.mentum · Sep 14, 2003

fieldsofwind said:
MM, I guess I'm just not a diverse guy. You're right, I'm not interested in pulling up a chair and listening to you explain to me why islam is such a great thing. Its not MM, period.

Then why you still talking to me? To prove your arrogance to me? Or to show your superiority to me? What? What's your point? Stop posting.

Christ (who is God become flesh) came down here, died for mankind's sins, and then rose on the third day afterwards so that all who believe in Him will be credited with righteousness. Now, thats the only equation that works.

If it works for you, fine. But since you're a missionary, I won't blame you for wnating to force your beliefs unto others. You are intolerant, not God. You are arrogant, not God.

Futhermore, I am not a racist individual. I don't hate you or others like you.

We learn as a first rule in Anthropology, whenver someone says "I am not a XYZ", than chances are he is a XYZ. It's pouring out of every letter you type. You prefer to stay ignorant rather than understanding us. So go ahead and spread lies, but again I won't blame you. Because you spread them without knowing, you don't know any better, nor do you care. God condones this?

I will repeat my challenge to you... name one muslim country that does not persecute Christians.

Name one western country that doesn't persecute Muslims. It goes both ways. And don't give me the BS about "land of the free". Just as Muslims are stopped and harassed in airports and such for "security reasons", Muslim countries do the same with foreigners. Just 'cause Muslim countires do it it's wrong, yet for the West it's alright? Double-Standards, I'm sure God loves that.

By the way, what are your feelings towards muslim terrorists? Are you sympathetic to their "cause"?

Let's be clear about one thing. Other than you're an instigator. I don't agree with their methods nor with their philosophy. Are you trying to "trap" me with this question? Because I had already stated how I htink of these poeple as an Abomination in our religion. Oh but wait, you don't care to understand about Islam, so we're all bad in your eyes.

If the "cause" you're referring to is the stupidity uttered by your President as "because they hate our freedom" then NO! I don't agree with the terrorist methods.

Western domination over the past centuries has stripped us of all honor and wealth, putting dictators and kings on our heads and claiming us to be undemocratic. Yet when your ancestors were in the Dark Ages, we werre basking in the light of science, human rights and social justice. When your ancestors were pesecuting the jews and "heretical" christians with the inquisition, we were providing them with shelter and accepting them as refugees. Check your history books, oh but wait, you don't care to understand because you're so superior.

My methods would've been ideological and practical, concentrated on liberating the Muslims from their own shackles in their own lands, not killing innocents a thousand miles away.

mo.mentum · Sep 14, 2003

Multi-ElisThe reason this discussion has become pointless to me is because I do not see Muhammed as a tolerant nice person. Zealous is more the word. There have been zealous people all over history said:
A quick review of my post http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1031670&postcount=10 would probably remove the misconception you have of Muhammed.

I provide the info, it's up to you to decide if you want to gain knowledge and perhaps be more understanding, or continue to walk the path of ignorance and stereotypes.

be well!

desi · Sep 14, 2003

mo.mentum your argument is good in a vacuum but we live in a world where lots of Muslims are killing people and (or) happy, dancing in the streets, when nonmuslim women and children are killed. Actions speak louder than words all around the world in this case.

mo.mentum · Sep 14, 2003

Ugh! Either you don't understand world politics, or CNN has blinded you to the realities of the world.

First of all. There was HUGE outpouring of sympathy and sadness from all over the Muslim world on 9/11. Even countries which you stated as "evil", like Iran and Somalia, were sending their regrets and love.

Second of all. The very few that were singing and dancing in the streets were Palestinians. This is a poeple that is virtually isolated from the rest of the world through occupation, they are humiliated daily at army checkpoints and curfews, they've been sapped of all will to live due to the last 50 years of inhumane living conditions in refugee camps and half baked cities with no real infrastructure.

They blame their situation on Israel (of course) and its big brother the US. SO OF COURSE THEY WILL BE HAPPY WHEN THEY SEE SUCH A THING! Come on! Use a bit of logic here. You're gonna make us all blood mongers just because a few destitutes were happy that a blow was given to the mighty USA? While the rest of us were weeping with you?

No wonder your President has lost all the good will that poured to the US after 9/11...

Lesson #1. Don't generalize.
Lesson #2. Learn to learn.
Lesson #3. Understand your "ennemy", or say nothing.

fieldsofwind · Sep 14, 2003

Posted by MM: "Then why you still talking to me? To prove your arrogance to me? Or to show your superiority to me? What? What's your point? Stop posting."

Seems to me, MM, that you just don't like me? Why not? Why do you want me to stop posting? Oh, and have I ever said that I am superior to you? No.

Have I been ignorant of your opinions? No.

Posted by MM: "If it works for you, fine. But since you're a missionary, I won't blame you for wnating to force your beliefs unto others. You are intolerant, not God. You are arrogant, not God."

When have I "forced" myself on anyone here? Have I twisted your arm and made you accept what I'm saying? Better yet, have I killed you for saying something derrogatory about Christ? Nope. However, are Christians killed or beaten for saying things against Muhammed? All the time. There have been more Christian martyrs this century than all of the previous years since Christ's resurrection. And by way, God is not arrogant, and nor is He tolerant of beliefs that run contrary to who He is, and what He has done.

Posted by MM: "We learn as a first rule in Anthropology, whenver someone says "I am not a XYZ", than chances are he is a XYZ. It's pouring out of every letter you type. You prefer to stay ignorant rather than understanding us. So go ahead and spread lies"

Well MM, that would be a neat educational point if I were a racist. (By the way, what does anthropology have to do with sociological/psychological personality types?) However, like I've said before, I'm not. I don't mind abdul and sahid, or ahmid or Osama as long as they don't persecute my brothers. However, you're the one with the messed up figures MM. The attrocities that I read about every couple of days are very real and very frequent among muslim nations. They are crimes carried out at the local level by muslim men enforcing religious laws, or in other cases just killing in a vigilantistic style. So, do I hate muslims? Nope. Do I hate the actions of those whom persecute Christians? Yep. Do I dislike those whom persecute Christians? I sure do. Does this make me "a hate spreader"? Nope, just a man who recognizes evil where it stands.

Posted by MM: "Western domination over the past centuries has stripped us of all honor and wealth, putting dictators and kings on our heads and claiming us to be undemocratic."

How so? Examples please.

Posted by MM: "When your ancestors were pesecuting... "heretical" christians with the inquisition, we were providing them with shelter and accepting them as refugees."

This is interesting. Can you give me some examples of Christians who were "sheltered" by Middle Eastern Muslim nations?

Posted by MM: "My methods would've been ideological and practical, concentrated on liberating the Muslims from their own shackles in their own lands, not killing innocents a thousand miles away."

Thanks for clearing this up for me, that would be a good idea.

take care momentum,

FOW, (otherwise known as, "the racist")

mo.mentum · Sep 14, 2003

fieldsofwind said:
Seems to me, MM, that you just don't like me? Why not? Why do you want me to stop posting? Oh, and have I ever said that I am superior to you? No. Have I been ignorant of your opinions? No.

Ummmm. REQUOTING you:

Originally Posted By: fieldsofwind

MM, I guess I'm just not a diverse guy. You're right, I'm not interested in pulling up a chair and listening to you explain to me why islam is such a great thing. Its not MM, period.

I rest my case.

There have been more Christian martyrs this century than all of the previous years since Christ's resurrection.

Back that up.

And by way, God is not arrogant, and nor is He tolerant of beliefs that run contrary to who He is, and what He has done.

I never said He was these things. I said you were.

The attrocities that I read about every couple of days are very real and very frequent among muslim nations. They are crimes carried out at the local level by muslim men enforcing religious laws, or in other cases just killing in a vigilantistic style.

puh-lease! This is happening everywhere to everyone! How do you think Yugoslavia and Bosnia started??? Christian Serbs started beating up on Muslim Croats and others. Do we hate Christians for it? No!

Gee how about in most Muslim countries where Sundays and Saturdays are the weekends! Despite Friday being our prayer day. ie: Egypt is one example of Christian Copts and Sunni Muslims living fine! Sheesh At least back up your claims.

So, do I hate muslims? Nope. Do I hate the actions of those whom persecute Christians? Yep. Do I dislike those whom persecute Christians? I sure do. Does this make me "a hate spreader"? Nope, just a man who recognizes evil where it stands.

Then you should recognize that what is being done to Muslims in Kashmir, Chechnya, Albania and Palestine is evil. Or do Muslims fighting for their lands always equal terrorists? It's the fad you know.

Posted by MM: "Western domination over the past centuries has stripped us of all honor and wealth, putting dictators and kings on our heads and claiming us to be undemocratic."

How so? Examples please.

OH MY GOD. I'm not gonna go into this. You should study history of the world, circa 1750->1950.

In summary. The Ottoman (Turkey), Safavid (Iran) and Mughal (India) Muslim empires were a huge force for a while. Though due to a detachment from Islam, these empires slowly fell into degenration and backwardness. The Ottoman empire kept on. During WWI, it allied itself to the losing side. The British and French ended up invading the whole of the Middle East except for Turkey, Arabia and Iran. With the Sykes-Picot agreement, they cut up the Middle East into rather funny looking countries with no specific borders or ethnic divides, and then installed their allies as kings and presidents. These of course squander the people's wealth and supress all public opinion. It's not Islam the problem, it's the lack of! And of course, these illegitimate leaders portray most Muslim activists as terrorists and extremists, even commit attacks in their name. (yes some groups ARE extremists, but not the majority)

Posted by MM: "When your ancestors were pesecuting... "heretical" christians with the inquisition, we were providing them with shelter and accepting them as refugees."

This is interesting. Can you give me some examples of Christians who were "sheltered" by Middle Eastern Muslim nations?

At the time, there was no such thing as "Middle Eastern Muslim nations", it was one dominion, the Muslim Ummah with one central leader the Caliph. First, from around 700->1400AD, Spain was Muslim and saw the rise of Islam's golden age, Granada and Al-Andalus. Here Muslims and Jews and Christians created a just and prosperous society. Jews were being persecuted in the rest of Europe and came to Spain.

By 1492, the Muslims had fallen into complacency and were basically kicked back into Morocco along with the Jews. Why do you think there are so many moroccon jews??

Posted by MM: "My methods would've been ideological and practical, concentrated on liberating the Muslims from their own shackles in their own lands, not killing innocents a thousand miles away."

Thanks for clearing this up for me, that would be a good idea. Maybe you'd like to go push that idea over "there".

With God alone is the knowledge of all things. Who knows what the future holds.

take care momentum,

FOW, (otherwise known as, "the racist")

Be Well! And don't be so hard on yourself, you may not be a racist yet

Just try to be more open with me, i only wish to understand and be understood. Salaam!

fieldsofwind · Sep 14, 2003

Posted by MM: "Ummmm. REQUOTING you"

Really? I don't remember saying that I didn't like you, (if you're requoting my response to you.) I don't remember telling you not to post anymore either. What are you requoting? Ohhh, I see, you're requoting my statement that Islam is not a great thing, and by that you're trying to demonstrate that I don't like you and that I feel superior to you. Now I see.

Well, MM, Islam is not OK with my God. So, it's not good. However, I don't feel superior to you because of that. I don't see the correlation that you're trying to draw.

Posted by MM: "puh-lease! This is happening everywhere to everyone! How do you think Yugoslavia and Bosnia started??? Christian Serbs started beating up on Muslim Croats and others. Do we hate Christians for it? No!"

No MM, its not happening everywhere to everyone. "Your" people are not persecuted here in America or where you are in Canada. They are not persecuted in GB, or in Australia, or in any other predominantly Christian nation. Your above mentioned example is the one account of a (not so) Christian nation persecuting muslims, (even though there are other factors that play into that equation.) So, how is it happening all over the world to everyone? I don't think so MM. However, Christians are persecuted in every nation that has declared itself a muslim state with muslim laws.

Posted by MM: "At least back up your claims."

http://www.persecution.com/members/countryMap/index.cfm

http://www.persecution.com/members/countryMap/index.cfm?action=countryView&countryID=14

Actually, if you're not "logged in" as a member, you won't go to these pages. But, you can sign up for free and go to the addresses above then. One of them is in referrence to Egypt, your example nation.

Regarding your history lesson: And your point is? Perhaps the Ottomans shouldn't have allied themselves with Germany

Oh, and about the amount of 20th century martyrs:

20TH CENTURY SAW 65% OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRS, SAYS AUTHOR

Conclusions of New Study Published in Italy

ROME, MAY 9, 2002 (Zenit.org).- The 20th century may have been the most striking in the annals of Christian martyrdom, and a new book shows it with numbers. In two millennia of Christian history, about 70 million faithful have given their lives for the faith, and of these, 45.5 million -- fully 65% -- were in the last century, according to "The New Persecuted" ("I Nuovi Perseguitati").

Posted by MM: "Be Well! And don't be so hard on yourself, you may not be a racist yet"

With luck, maybe I can pull away from my racist tendencies.

???

FOW

mo.mentum · Sep 14, 2003

FOW. Do you honeslty expect me to sit here quietly while people speculate about how violent Islam is or how intrinsically intolerant it is, without defending it?

I see error and i fight to correct it. So all I say to you now is the usual "Judge not a religion by its followers, but by its Scripture".

I cannot defend the actions of those who commit error in the name of God. He is their Judge, not I. And that brings me Peace. In the end, those who wrong and those who are wronged will get their just rewards.

And yes by the way, Muslims are persecuted in the West. Maybe not through violence or in such plain view. But there are social structure and institutions that put up alot of red tape for Muslims. Both are equally destructive.

We can argue forever on who's suffering more. The end result is people are suffering!!! THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING. Wheter Muslim or Christian or Atheist, they're all people, no?

PS: I love how u only quote one or two sentences of mine, my "sound bytes" fit your retorts nicely.

desi · Sep 14, 2003

mo.mentum said:
Ugh! Either you don't understand world politics, or CNN has blinded you to the realities of the world.

Or maybe 5000 of my countrymen were killed by muslims from Saudi Arabia who trained in Afghanistan paid for by money from Muslims throughout the world.

mo.mentum said:
First of all. There was HUGE outpouring of sympathy and sadness from all over the Muslim world on 9/11. Even countries which you stated as "evil", like Iran and Somalia, were sending their regrets and love.

I stated no countries as evil, keep your facts straight. Muslims are still bombing places all over the world. Press releases from Muslim countries conedmning the act is not an outpouring of sympathy, it is politics.

mo.mentum said:
Second of all. The very few that were singing and dancing in the streets were Palestinians. This is a poeple that is virtually isolated from the rest of the world through occupation, they are humiliated daily at army checkpoints and curfews, they've been sapped of all will to live due to the last 50 years of inhumane living conditions in refugee camps and half baked cities with no real infrastructure.

Now you defend Palestinians who weekly bomb women and children, and have hamstrung themselves concerning the peace process. Israel was preparing to bend over backwards to capitulate when Arafat and Hamas screwed things up by killing more Israelis.

mo.mentum said:
They blame their situation on Israel (of course) and its big brother the US. SO OF COURSE THEY WILL BE HAPPY WHEN THEY SEE SUCH A THING! Come on! Use a bit of logic here. You're gonna make us all blood mongers just because a few destitutes were happy that a blow was given to the mighty USA? While the rest of us were weeping with you?

Muslims use suicide bombings and other bombings around the world targeting civilians to push their cause. This is a pattern not a glitch. If you want to be Muslim you need to recognize this and embrace it or admit its errancy. Claiming it isn't so just makes you sound ignorant.

mo.mentum said:
No wonder your President has lost all the good will that poured to the US after 9/11...

Lesson #1. Don't generalize.
Lesson #2. Learn to learn.
Lesson #3. Understand your "ennemy", or say nothing.

My president took the fight to the terrorists's homes despite world opinion, America is fortunate to have such a heroic leader at this time. Could you honestly say your leaders would do the same if the situation was reversed? Or would you prefer they sit on their hands under such circumstances?

mo.mentum · Sep 14, 2003

Spare me this mockery of an argument.

desi said:
Or maybe 5000 of my countrymen were killed by muslims from Saudi Arabia who trained in Afghanistan paid for by money from Muslims throughout the world.

Please. Bin Laden is sitting in a CIA office sipping tea as we speak, discussing the new with Saddam and other terrorist leaders.

The poeple were giving money to charitable organization, who knew they would be sending money to Al-Qaeda and friends. You're so naive. You state that no countries are evil or whatever, then you blame all Muslims for 9/11. Smart.

30,000 people die EVERYDAY from hunger. What about them? Oh wait, they're not American. With the $87billion Bush wants to spend on Iraq, he could've solved world hunger. So shed your "holier than thou" mentality.

I stated no countries as evil, keep your facts straight. Muslims are still bombing places all over the world. Press releases from Muslim countries conedmning the act is not an outpouring of sympathy, it is politics.

Again. It was the PEOPLE who went out to the streets and lit candles and cried. Were you there? No! But whatever, these people are savages in your mind, so how could htey possibly feel "your immense pain". We in the Middle East despire our governments and see them for what they are, oppressive dictatorships squandering public wealth.

Now you defend Palestinians who weekly bomb women and children, and have hamstrung themselves concerning the peace process. Israel was preparing to bend over backwards to capitulate when Arafat and Hamas screwed things up by killing more Israelis.

Hahahah bend over backwards. Come on. If Arafact accepted those "Israeli concessions" you talk about, he would've been assassinated the next day by a palestinian kid. He's speaking for the people and they know their rights. The usual CNN line of thinking: when Israelis raid civilian towns and "accidently" kill civilians, you NEVER hear about it. But when a young man, whose lost all hope in life because he lives in a communal prison (read refugee camps), gives his body to the cause of his people, he's a terrorist. Granted, they target civilians as well, but that's a result of who they see dying around them. Alot of what's happening in the occupied territories doesn't get reported here. Face it. Check out sites of organizations like Gush Shalom, Israelis that condemn their government's policies.

People don't just strap bombs to themselves for no reason. Do poeple who commit suicide do it 'cause they're happy? No! When you lose all hope, there's nothing in your brain to tell you "dont do it, it's not right!". As an Anthropologist, i take these factors into consideration and try to listen to more than my President's blabbering about "evil vs. good".

Muslims use suicide bombings and other bombings around the world targeting civilians to push their cause. This is a pattern not a glitch. If you want to be Muslim you need to recognize this and embrace it or admit its errancy. Claiming it isn't so just makes you sound ignorant.

I never claimed it wasn't so. I called these people abominations to the religions. But Western media has capitalized on these things to paint a certain image of Muslims, which is working great i see. Look at you! Good job CNN.

My president took the fight to the terrorists's homes despite world opinion, America is fortunate to have such a heroic leader at this time. Could you honestly say your leaders would do the same if the situation was reversed? Or would you prefer they sit on their hands under such circumstances?

Please. If he's doing it for any other reason than money and imperial interests, i'm cutting my arm off for you.

And no. Unfortunetly, we haven't had any leaders since the death of the Caliphate after WW1. So that's why we know our situation is dire. The Muslim empire was once one unified entity under one rule, Prince of the Believers. But without such guidance, we've let ourselves split up into 53 countries! And our worst elements have surfaced.

BTW. We know for a fact that the reason we have fundementalist/extremist groups in the middle east is due to a mix of two things:
1. Oppressive measures used by the goverments to subdue public opinion and uprisiings, hence driving all such movements to the underground
2. The movements, having no way of expressing their views or appealing to the poeple revert to violent/militant means.

It's a classic approach that you can't associate to Muslims alone. The biggest terrorist threat is in Colombia, did you knwo that much? No!

One second you say you don't want to lump us all together, the next you are. Decide already. As your "heroic" leader said "You're either with us or against us". Oh wait, didn't he skip the draft?

Multi-Elis · Sep 15, 2003

Pleasure is permitted, our dreams are to become true. Isn't that the point of heaven?! Unlike in Christianity, in Islam, sexual relaitons are seen as an important part of the life of a couple and are encouraged. Illegal premarital sex is frowned upon of course. But between husband and wife, it is to be enjoyed in every possible way. So why not in Paradise?!

Reply:
"They shall sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches." The Ranks (37) #42-

"As for the righteous, they shall truely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed maidens for companions: a truly overflowing cup." The Tidings (78) #31-

Major culture shock. Not that I have any thing against pleasure, but I understand these verses to be talking about men who have been married on earth and get new wives in Paradise.

I agree that the Muslims and the westerers are suffering from major culture shock. I agree the west oppresses many of the Muslim countries. I think both the palestinians and the Israelies are to blame for the terrable bloodshed there. I am more informed than anyone on this bord that I know of, on this subject.

I don't like Islam not so much because I don't like it's current manifestations, though that contributes emotionally, nor so much because of the culture shock with today's Muslims, I did have a difficult time with a couple Muslims, but even if they weren't Muslims I would have had a difficult time with them. With other Muslims I was fine. I do have a problem with the difference in culture, but I have reached un "understanding" of it not being breachable, and best left alone. My major problem with Islam is probably mostly because of the person who founded it. And I still see him as none other but a zealous man, at best. And the cultural rift is just to big to be breached. Marrying 9 year olds? There's no point in trying to convince me otherwise. That was just an example. I just don't like him. Don't get me wrong, there are people in the history of the church that I don't like. Calvin? Burning someone for dissagreeing with him? That's just an example. But they are just branches on a tree, Just like Bin-Ladden is a branch on a tree.

Blackwing · Sep 15, 2003

ok folks this thread has run its course and its not appropriate in the young adults fellowship. Will move this to somewhere else. Thanks you

mo.mentum · Sep 15, 2003

Multi-Elis said:
Major culture shock. Not that I have any thing against pleasure, but I understand these verses to be talking about men who have been married on earth and get new wives in Paradise.

You have to understand that life in Heaven is nothing like life down here. It is beyond description. There won't be any guilt for such things. Everyone, male or female, will get a just reward.

I do have a problem with the difference in culture, but I have reached un "understanding" of it not being breachable, and best left alone.

You should know then, there is no such thing as ONE Islamic Culture. Every region has it own flavour of Islam. Same beliefs and practices, but different ways of expressing it. All we need is a little understanding between all of us and all of you.

My major problem with Islam is probably mostly because of the person who founded it. And I still see him as none other but a zealous man, at best. And the cultural rift is just to big to be breached. Marrying 9 year olds? There's no point in trying to convince me otherwise.

I'll try anyway.

A zealous man because he was executing God's orders? Because he allowed his followers to take up the sword against the pagan Arabs; which persecuted his people and stole their belongings? All our historic records of him show that he was a mild mannered simple man, very calm, very peaceful. He hated to fight and always resisted his companions wishes to fight. Only when God allowed him to fight, did he go along with it.

As for the multiple wives + 9 year old kid. This is a favourite among those who want to paint Muhammad in a negative light. First, at the time of the prophet, there were many men dying in battle to defend the young Muslim community from the pagans and idolators. They were under constant attack. So instead of leaving the widows of these men to fend for themselves and suffer, the surviving men were encouraged to marry them and take care of them and their children. There is no sexual interest here. No all humans are sexually inclined, especially not in those days. It's a kind of social welfare. Everyone takes care of everyone. For the 9 year old, she was wed to the prophet as a gift, he didn't necessarily have sex with her!! That would go against everything we know about him and doesn't fit the patter of his behaviour, hence illogical. It's obvious that misinformed people spread things like this without explaining them in order to make Muhammad look like a bad bad man.

I can back up my claims with quotes if need be.

Plan 9 · Sep 15, 2003

mo.mentum said:
People don't just strap bombs to themselves for no reason. Do poeple who commit suicide do it 'cause they're happy? No! When you lose all hope, there's nothing in your brain to tell you "dont do it, it's not right!". As an Anthropologist, i take these factors into consideration and try to listen to more than my President's blabbering about "evil vs. good".

If you're an anthropologist, you could be working to be as aware of your own tendency toward ethnocentrism as you are of others' and be trying to counter it, rather then confining yourself to criticizing theirs, especially in such negative terms.

mo.mentum · Sep 15, 2003

Plan 9 said:
If you're an anthropologist, you could be working to be as aware of your own tendency toward ethnocentrism as you are of others' and be trying to counter it.

I'm well aware of my biases, but thanks for the concern

What I am doing is to look at the history and contemporary social conditions of a people in order to explain behaviour. That's my job.

Plan 9 · Sep 15, 2003

mo.mentum said:
I'm well aware of my biases, but thanks for the concern

What I am doing is to look at the history and contemporary social conditions of a people in order to explain behaviour. That's my job.

When I read anthropoligical studies, I'm always impressed with how closely the writers are able to indentify with their subjects and have yet to see terms like "blathering" used.
You don't seem to me to post as though you're "on the job", unless you're speaking of that portion of your job spent wrangling with other antropologists, but that's fine, as long as you don't present your strong personal beliefs and opinions as unually unbiased because of your discipline..
If, in bringing up your job, you weren't intending that, you have my abject apologies. my field is psychology, but I'm certainly not "on the job" when I express my personal opinions and would not want anyone to believe that, since I sometimes become quite emotionally involved when posting .

Here's a short quote from one of my anthropology texts:

"In addition to teaching tolerance between members of different cultural traditions, [cultural] relativism is an approach to the scientific description and understanding of different ways of life. This approach...requires that the anthropologist search for the sensibility and rationality of actions and beliefs that seem puzzling...
Approaching the explanation of such behaviors and beliefs relativistically means assuming that they are not attributable to simple ignorance, blind superstition, or collective perversion, but that they are sensible and intelligible once we understand enough about them and their causes and effects." (Peoples and Bailey, 1988)

mo.mentum · Sep 15, 2003

Plan 9 said:
"In addition to teaching tolerance between members of different cultural traditions, [cultural] relativism is an approach to the scientific description and understanding of different ways of life. This approach...requires that the anthropologist search for the sensibility and rationality of actions and beliefs that seem puzzling...
Approaching the explanation of such behaviors and beliefs relativistically means assuming that they are not attributable to simple ignorance, blind superstition, or collective perversion, but that they are sensible and intelligible once we understand enough about them and their causes and effects." (Peoples and Bailey, 1988)

That's what I'm referring to and that's what I've been trying to do in this thread, which is so conveniently titled "the Religion of Hatred".

When I said, "it's my job", I meant it as in I'm trained to look at historical as well as social and other factors in explaining people's behaviour. Reread my posts please.

Where I got emotionally involved in my post, i was replying to statements I found offensive. Anyway that's not the point of this thread, to examine my academic competence.

Plan 9 · Sep 15, 2003

mo.mentum said:
That's what I'm referring to and that's what I've been trying to do in this thread, which is so conveniently titled "the Religion of Hatred".

When I said, "it's my job", I meant it as in I'm trained to look at historical as well as social and other factors in explaining people's behaviour. Reread my posts please.

Where I got emotionally involved in my post, i was replying to statements I found offensive. Anyway that's not the point of this thread, to examine my academic competence.

I'm sorry that anyone was offensive to you and it is not my intention to examine your academic competence. What I was hoping for from your posts was a greater understanding of Islam than I can learn from reading books, but you make statements which you could not possibly know to be fact, such as

Please. Bin Laden is sitting in a CIA office sipping tea as we speak, discussing the new with Saddam and other terrorist leaders.

.
Between those and your returning offense for offence, I don't know which parts of your posts I can take as fact and I despair of learning from you.
I'll just slink away, now, and not bother you again. My apologies.

mo.mentum · Sep 15, 2003

Plan 9 said:
I'm sorry that anyone was offensive to you and it is not my intention to examine your academic competence. What I was hoping for from your posts was a greater understanding of Islam than I can learn from reading books, but you make statements which you could not possibly know to be fact

Hahahaha come on! The Bin Laden in a CIA office thing? That's my sarcastic conspiracy theory psycho mentality

We shouldn't take _everything_ said on these forums as academic discussion. It's ok to joke around from time to time.

I dunno. I thought it was obvious it was a joke. What kind of world would we live in if Bin Laden was actually sipping tea in a CIA office, waiting for his next mission. *dread* Can you say "Big Brother"?

Between those and your returning offense for offence, I don't know which parts of your posts I can take as fact and I despair of learning from you. I'll just slink away, now, and not bother you again. My apologies.

Ok. Fair enough. I apologize you had to see the uglier side of me. I'm not too proud myself now. But I get a tad defensive sometimes, especially when I stand alone defending an ideology, and others telling me that no matter what I say it won't change the way they view that ideology. So you can imagine my frustration. In the end, poeple who are sincerely looking for knowledge get turned away. I feel so bad

Well if you're still interested and I haven't turned you off completely, I'd appreciate it if you check my post #10 on this thread.

Please don't think of me as a reactionary

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