Do liberal Christians have a leg to stand on?

Polycarp1 · Sep 13, 2003

Badfish, you are I think missing the point in re: circular reasoning.

The Bible cannot itself prove that it is inspired and inerrant by itself, because its degree or inspiration and inerrancy are what is in question.

God validates the Bible. If an omnipotent, omniscient God inspired it as an inerrant record of His deeds, then there is an outside source -- Him -- validating it.

This of course leads to the question about what "inspiration" means -- and for that matter what "inerrancy" means in reference to it. Which are being addressed in another thread in this forum.

Plan 9 · Sep 13, 2003

Polycarp1 said:
Badfish, you are I think missing the point in re: circular reasoning.

The Bible cannot itself prove that it is inspired and inerrant by itself, because its degree or inspiration and inerrancy are what is in question.

God validates the Bible. If an omnipotent, omniscient God inspired it as an inerrant record of His deeds, then there is an outside source -- Him -- validating it.

This of course leads to the question about what "inspiration" means -- and for that matter what "inerrancy" means in reference to it. Which are being addressed in another thread in this forum.

Which thread is that, Polycarp?

OldBadfish · Sep 13, 2003

Polycarp1 said:
Badfish, you are I think missing the point in re: circular reasoning.

The Bible cannot itself prove that it is inspired and inerrant by itself, because its degree or inspiration and inerrancy are what is in question.

God validates the Bible. If an omnipotent, omniscient God inspired it as an inerrant record of His deeds, then there is an outside source -- Him -- validating it.

This of course leads to the question about what "inspiration" means -- and for that matter what "inerrancy" means in reference to it. Which are being addressed in another thread in this forum.

If you add anymore philosophy you will succeed in totally confusing the issue, and that is well you know....

Innerrancy means what it means, God inspired it, the bible says so, we don't have any other words of God to challenge this or back it up, so then the bible proves itself. If you don't believe it, then thats your perogative.

Enjoy

Plan 9 · Sep 13, 2003

Sean, were you planning to reply to my post? I'm just curious..

In the meantime, have some more popcorn.

Polycarp1 · Sep 13, 2003

Plan 9 said:
Which thread is that, Polycarp?

Philo's Biblical Authority thread.

Happy Harry · Sep 14, 2003

Plan 9 said:
Sean, were you planning to reply to my post? I'm just curious..

In the meantime, have some more popcorn.

I don't think I'll be answering for a while for obvious reasons.

Which post would that be?

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Happy Harry said:
I don't think I'll be answering for a while for obvious reasons.

Which post would that be?

Badfish, I want a sockpuppet like yours when I grow up.

Under the circumstances, I agree that my question will remain unanswered.

However, please have some popcorn while you're here.

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Polycarp1 said:
Philo's Biblical Authority thread.

Thank you, Polycarp.

Happy Harry · Sep 14, 2003

Plan 9 said:
Badfish, I want a sockpuppet like yours when I grow up.

Under the circumstances, I agree that my question will remain unanswered.

However, please have some popcorn while you're here.

Actually I've had enough popcorn, don't you have any other goodies left? And I probably have some time, so maybe you can direct me to your question. Whether I can answer it or not we'll see. Probably not to anyones satisfaction.

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Happy Harry said:
Actually I've had enough popcorn, don't you have any other goodies left? And I probably have some time, so maybe you can direct me to your question. Whether I can answer it or not we'll see. Probably not to anyones satisfaction.

Oh, yes; we have a wide variety. Karl even brought some baked goods, which I highly recommend.

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Plan 9 said:
Question One: Maybe when he's done showing us this, he'll explain how believing a Bible story is figuratively true results in an "anything goes type of interpretation.

While we're waiting, have a look at this:

Matthew 13:33-34 He told them also this parable:
'The kingdom of Heaven is like yeast, which a woman took and mixed with three measures of flour till it was all leavened.'
In all his teaching to the crowds Jesus spoke in parables; indeed he never spoke to them except in parables.

Question Two: So, Brimshack, do you think Jesus is talking about a real woman, real yeast and real flour?

Badfish, I addressed my remarks to Brimshack because you were offline at the time. I believe I have the gist of my question posted above. Please tell me if I haven't been clear.

Happy Harry · Sep 14, 2003

Hang on I'm eating the goodies....

Ok, of course thats a parable, he is comparing, both statements are equally true.

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Happy Harry said:
Hang on I'm eating the goodies....

Ok, of course thats a parable, he is comparing, both statements are equally true.

Take your time. would you care for some candied almonds?

My next question is:

Is the moral lesson of this parable changed in any way if it is taken literally, rather than figuratively, or does it teach the same lesson no matter what?

Happy Harry · Sep 14, 2003

Parables and figurative language are superior to plain statements. IMO

Gives the reader something to compare things to, so it is easier to understand, not all passages in the bible are parable though, just the parts where a point is easier made with parable.

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Happy Harry said:
Parables and figurative language are superior to plain statements. IMO

Gives the reader something to compare things to, so it is easier to understand, not all passages in the bible are parable though, just the parts where a point is easier made with parable.

So far, we agree.

Happy Harry · Sep 14, 2003

Plan 9 said:
Take your time. would you care for some candied almonds?

My next question is:

Is the moral lesson of this parable changed in any way if it is taken literally, rather than figuratively, or does it teach the same lesson no matter what?

Well of course. Just because there are bible literalists doesn't mean that they don't know the difference between parable and literal.

Are the 10 commandments parable? No.

There is a reason for speaking in parable as I expressed above. Obviously there are parts that are parable and and some are not.

Do you want to take a serious scripture and see if it's a parable? How about the prophesy of Christ, wouldn't you agree that that scripture would be silly if it was meant to be a parable?

See what I mean?

Happy Harry · Sep 14, 2003

Plan 9 said:
So far, we agree.

See? Its just a misunderstanding. The point I was making is that some people don't know where to draw the line on parable and literal (IMO), the point was, is that some Christians will just plain not believe scripture, like it is fiction, like the letters from Paul, probably the most disregarded scriptures in the bible, it is this that I don't understand.

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Happy Harry said:
Well of course. Just because there are bible literalists doesn't mean that they don't know the difference between parable and literal.

Are the 10 commandments parable? No.

There is a reason for speaking in parable as I expressed above. Obviously there are parts that are parable and and some are not.

Do you want to take a serious scripture and see if it's a parable? How about the prophesy of Christ, wouldn't you agree that that scripture would be silly if it was meant to be a parable?

See what I mean?

Yes, I do see what you mean and I do agree that the Ten Commandments are to be taken literally.

I don't want to take a specific scripture and debate, because I think we could do that for weeks without communicating.

This is the principle I use to understand the positions of others and it works well for me:

Miller's Law
"In order to understand what another person is saying, you must assume that it is true and try to imagine what it could be true of." (George Miller; 1980.)

Plan 9 · Sep 14, 2003

Happy Harry said:
See? Its just a misunderstanding. The point I was making is that some people don't know where to draw the line on parable and literal (IMO), the point was, is that some Christians will just plain not believe scripture, like it is fiction, like the letters from Paul, probably the most disregarded scriptures in the bible, it is this that I don't understand.

I don't understand why any Christian would treat the Bible as fiction, either, and I have noticed that even many litereralists ignore the small ending sections of Paul's letters, as though they weren't important. As I result, I've beaten people who know more of the Bible by heart than I at Bible Trivia.

The fact is, in my not-so-humble-opinion, any Christian who believes a Bible passage to be figurative is still obliged to accept what the passage teaches.

Are you with me, so far?

EDIT: off-topic: I started a thread in News. I thought you, if no one else here, would get a kick out of it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t56772

Happy Harry · Sep 14, 2003

Plan 9 said:
I don't understand why any Christian would treat the Bible as fiction, either,

Neither do I

and I have noticed that even many litereralists ignore the small ending sections of Paul's letters, as though they weren't important.

Click to expand...

Thats not good.

The fact is, in my not-so-humble-opinion, any Christian who believes a Bible passage to be figurative is still obliged to accept what the passage teaches.

Click to expand...

Uh oh, I think I know where this is going. I hope you're not going to go into the old laws and Jewish laws. LOL But yes if it is applicable to a given person, such as a gentile or whatever, then yes.

Are you with me, so far?

Click to expand...

Yeah, but I gotta hit it, hopefully we can talk about this tommorow.

Click to expand...

Do liberal Christians have a leg to stand on?

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