The truth of wicca

Do you research your topic before discussing it on the forums? (relating to wicca)

  • YES! Very in depth

  • A little

  • I know what ppl have told me, thats enough

  • No


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good_news

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30 Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."


31 Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them."


32 Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."


33 Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops. After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."


34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a bind person, both of them will fall into a hole."


35 Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."


36 Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening to morning, about what you are going to wear. "


37 His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."


38 Jesus said, "Often you have desired to hear these sayings that I am speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear them. There will be

days when you will seek me and you will not find me."


39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so. As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."


40 Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish."


41 Jesus said, "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and those who have nothing will be deprived of even the little they have."


42 Jesus said, "Be passersby."


43 His disciples said to him, "Who are you to say these things to us?"

"You don't understand who I am from what I say to you. Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."


44 Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."


45 Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit. Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."


46 Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) imperial rule and will become greater than John."


47 Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows. And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other.

"Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."


48 Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."


49 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the (Father's) domain. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."


50 Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"


51 His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?"

He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."


52 His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you." He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."


53 His disciples said to him, "is circumcision useful or not?"


He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."


54 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the poor, for to you belongs Heaven's domain."


55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."


56 Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world is not

worthy."


57 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed. His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds, but said to them, "No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them." For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up and burned.


58 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the person who has toiled and has found life."


59 Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."


60 (He saw) a Samaritan carrying a lamb and going to Judea. He said to his disciples, "(...) that person (...) around the lamb." They said to him, "So that he may kill it and eat it." He said to them, "He will not eat it while it is alive, but only after he has killed it and it has become a carcass."


They said, "Otherwise he can't do it."


He said to them, "So also with you, seek for yourselves a place for rest, or you might become a carcass and be eaten."


61 Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live."


Salome said, "Who are you mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone."


Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father."


"I am your disciple."


"For this reason I say, if one is (whole), one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."


62 Jesus said, "I disclose my mysteries to those [who are worthy] of [my] mysteries. Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."


63 Jesus said, There was a rich man who had a great deal of money. He said, "I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing." These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that very night he died. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!


64 Jesus said, A person was receiving guests. When he had prepared the dinner, he sent his slave to invite the guests. The slave went to the first and said, "My master invites you." The first replied, "Some merchants owe me money; they are coming to me tonight. I have to go and give them instructions. Please excuse me from dinner." The slave went to another and said, "My master has invited you." The second said to the slave, "I have bought a house, and I have been called away for a day. I shall have no time." The slave went to another and said, "My master invites you." The third said to

the slave, "My friend is to be married, and I am to arrange the banquet. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me from dinner." The slave wen to another and said, "My master invites you." The fourth said to the slave, "I have bought an estate, and I am going to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me." The slave returned and said to his master, "Those whom you invited to dinner have asked to be excused." The master said to his slave, "Go out on the streets and bring back whomever you find to have dinner."


Buyers and merchants [will] not enter the places of my Father.
 
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good_news

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65 He said, A [...] person owned a vineyard and rented it to some farmers, so they could work it and he could collect its crop from them. He sent his slave so the farmers would give him the vineyard's crop. They grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him, and the slave returned and told his master. His master said, "Perhaps he didn't know them." He sent another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well. Then the master sent his son and said, "Perhaps they'll show my son some respect." Because the farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they grabbed him and killed him. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!


66 Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the keystone."


67 Jesus said, "Those who know all, but are lacking in themselves, are utterly lacking."


68 Jesus said, "Congratulations to you when you are hated and persecuted;


and no place will be found, wherever you have been persecuted."


69 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who have been persecuted in their hearts: they are the ones who have truly come to know the Father. Congratulations to those who go hungry, so the stomach of the one in want may be filled."


70 Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."


71 Jesus said, "I will destroy [this] house, and no one will be able to build it [...]."


72 A [person said] to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me."

He said to the person, "Mister, who made me a divider?"

He turned to his disciples and said to them, "I'm not a divider, am I?"


73 Jesus said, "The crop is huge but the workers are few, so beg the harvest boss to dispatch workers to the fields."


74 He said, "Lord, there are many around the drinking trough, but there is nothing in the well."


75 Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite."


76 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself.


So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."


77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


78 Jesus said, "Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."


79 A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."


He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'"


80 Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."


81 Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce (it)."


82 Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the (Father's) domain."


83 Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."


84 Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"


85 Jesus said, "Adam came from great power and great wealth, but he was not worthy of you. For had he been worthy, [he would] not [have tasted] death."


86 Jesus said, "[Foxes have] their dens and birds have their nests, but human beings have no place to lay down and rest."


87 Jesus said, "How miserable is the body that depends on a body, and how miserable is the soul that depends on these two."


88 Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'"


89 Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"


90 Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."


91 They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."


He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment.


92 Jesus said, "Seek and you will find. In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."


93 "Don't give what is sacred to dogs, for they might throw them upon the manure pile. Don't throw pearls [to] pigs, or they might ... it [...]."


94 Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."


95 [Jesus said], "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back."


96 Jesus [said], The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!


97 Jesus said, The [Father's] imperial rule is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.


98 Jesus said, The Father's imperial rule is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one.


99 The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."


He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my Father's kingdom."


100 They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."


He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."


101 "Whoever does not hate [father] and mother as I do cannot be my [disciple], and whoever does [not] love [father and] mother as I do cannot be my [disciple]. For my mother [...], but my true [mother] gave me life."


102 Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."


103 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."


104 They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."


Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray."


105 Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a harlot."


106 Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."


107 Jesus said, The (Fahter's) imperial rule is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the

one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety-nine."


108 Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."


109 Jesus said, The (Father's) imperial rule is like a person who had a treasure hidden in his field but did not know it. And [when] he died he left it to his [son].

The son [did] not know (about it either). He took over the field and sold it. The buyer went plowing, [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished.


110 Jesus said, "Let one who has found the world, and has become wealthy, renounce the world."


111 Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will roll up in your presence, and whoever is living from the living one will not see death." Does not Jesus say, "Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy"?


112 Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."


113 His disciples said to him, "When will the (Father's) imperial rule come?"


"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."


114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."


Translated by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer


This text and translation of the Gospel of Thomas is taken from The Complete Gospels (3rd edition), edited by Robert J. Miller and publisehd by Polebridge Press. In addition to the Gospel of Thomas, The Complete Gospels includes new translations of all known gospels from the early Christian era, among them the Gospel of Mary, the Sayings Gospel Q, the Signs Gospel, the Secret Book of James, and the Gospel of Peter.


For information on The Complete Gospels and other books on early Christianity contact Polebridge Press, P.O. Box 6144, Santa Rosa, CA 95406, 707/523-1323.


The Gospel of Thomas © 1992, 1994 by Polebridge Press. Used by permission. All rights reserved. May not be duplicated, distributed or published in any form with out written permission of the copyright holder.
 
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1Cor. 5:9-13 "When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. What I meant was that you are not to associate with someone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedsy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people. It isn't my resopnsibility to judge outsiders, BUT IT CERTAINLY IS YOUR JOB TO JUDGE THOSE INSIDE THE CHURCH who are sinning in these ways. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, 'You must remove the evil person from among you."
 
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I was always told not to judge others unless i want to be judged. I think that its up to God to say if we are sinners or not. We and Christians have no right to say what is right and what is wrong. To us being Christian is the right thing but to others being Jewish or Wicca or any other religion for that matter may be right to them. Its our own personal belifes who make us who we are not everyone that is Christian belives everything the church tells us. And as for the church saying that witch craft is wrong i have never ever been told that i would like to know the truth about if it is wrong or right, but truly its not up to us to decide on what religion is right.
 
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Okay, I have to say something. I am a Christian who believes that the Bible is the infallable Word of God. It is my final authority, and it says that I am not to lean on my own understanding. I am to trust the Lord, and He will direct my path, and that He is not a man that He can lie. The Word is good for instruction and doctrine. If it is in the Bible, God said it, it is true. If I don't understand, well, who am I to know the mind of God. He said He HATES witchcraft. Period. I do not hate people who follow differnt religions than mine, I love them. My salvation comes from grace, not from works. I will not post on here anymore, as it is becoming a vain argument. Goodnews, thank you so much for debating with me, have a long and prosperous life, hope to talk to you another time.
 
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jrmorganjr

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good_news,

The Gospel of Thomas you quote is not scripture. You are quoting a man, probably not Thomas, who was not divinely inspired. You are misleading Christians with your misconception of what judging means. You are misleading Christians by making other religions out to be equivalent to Christianity, and trying to gloss over the evil and anti-Christ beliefs that their systems contain. You are belittling the Old Testament, whose every page breathes the Messiah, which is Christ. The entire Bible is a Testament to Christ, not just Christ's words. You are so far in errancy that I fear for your soul. Note I said fear, not judge. Please discontinue your comments to all on this subject (wicca & moral/religious equivalencies)- you are attempting/serving to weaken the body of Christ. Do not EVER champion another religion as being morally equal to Christianity to Christians as a Christian. Lovingly, with your own interests in my heart, I beg you, completely disassociate yourself from wicca. It is a stumbling block to you, it is not the path God intends for you. Focus on Christ only, as revealed in the Old and New Testaments. Please!

Wicca is idolatry and witchcraft. No Christian should associate themselves with it, other than to try to win souls for Christ by convincing them to come out of it.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged" was not intended to make all opinions equal. We are also commanded to discern! It is the devil's lie, and man's sinful desire, which makes one want to make all opinion equal. Only God's opinion matters, and we have a responsibility to one another's souls to lovingly point out to one another when we err and trespass God's law and love.

To any new Christians reading this thread, do not be pulled in by good_news' rhetoric. He is deceived at best, and deceiving at worst.

good_news, my heart is seized in fear for you. You have obviously come to know some of God, but you are trying to serve 2 masters. You cannot! Repent and recant your support for wicca! Love your wiccan friends straight to Christ, but do not go into their beliefs and be sucked in.

I will pray that Jehovah God may bless you richly -

In Christ,
 
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Good News: you are not fighting a good fight here.

Your views on sin, are so far from the scale i think you wandered into a diffearnt forest, shovel in hand trying to forge a new path.

Weither you believe or not He will judge you on your actions. Weither you think what you did was right or wrong, He will judge you. You are a man prone to make mistakes, and He will judge you on your deeds. If you were a catholic or anyother denomination you would know and fear the path your takeing in this thread and in life. Go and read the bible again. Sin is Sin weither you choose to ignore that it was written or choose not to hear what is told to you. You are still accountable.
 
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VOW

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<sigh>

I blame the movie "Stigmata" for this mess. It gave BAD information about the Catholic Church and its inner workings, it promoted a priest having a crisis of faith, it mocked what can be a very solemn testimony for the sufferings of Christ, and it unearthed a heretical writing and offered it as Scripture.

To Good News:

There's a REASON why "The Gospel of Thomas" isn't included in the New Testament! The Early Church Fathers proclaimed it as bogus!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by VOW
There's a REASON why "The Gospel of Thomas" isn't included in the New Testament! The Early Church Fathers proclaimed it as bogus!
Actually that isn't true -- at least if you are talking about the Coptic Gospel of Thomas posted above. There is a Gnostic Gospel of Thomas which is bogus and has nothing in common with this other Gospel of the same name. You are probably just confused.

The Church has actually remained mum about the Coptic Gospel of Thomas. It may yet be added to the Catholic Apocrypha with the other non-canonized writings of the Apostles and early Christians some day. In fact, you would think if they were going to declare it heretical, they'd have done so by now.
 
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elephanticity

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In reference to your original message seeking understanding of Wiccans
I think a key difference between Christian religions and the Pagan traditions is the nature of the dichotomy of existence. Christians (and most of Western Culture) tend to divide the world into Good and Evil. Pagans tend to split everything between Male and Female influences, also identified as Selfish and Generous motivations. Selfish being things you do for yourself, Generous things you do for other people. Selfish isn't necessarily Evil, it's something that you benefit from. The fact that you eat a meal is for your self benefit...giving food to someone else and going hungry is for their benefit.

Personally, i believe that EVERYTHING is done for selfish reasons, but depends on the personal definition of self. You could extend your self image, or self interest, to include yourself, your family, your class, your grade, your school, your city/state/nation/race/creed/planet... And you could actually use different values of self for different occassions. Very seldom does anyone do something for the sole benefit of completely separate units. Most 'selfless' acts are motivated by some connection one feels to the benefees, either as you share humanity with them, or it's to the glory of God as you worship him, or because it's a tax benefit....
As an islam cliche goes, 'Me against my cousin, my cousin and I against the world.'
 
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Walk the walk; talk the talk.

Do not worship or hold any idols/gods equal or above me.

I walk the walk and talk the talk every day my friend.

Your words Good News speak for themselvs and all i can read is "I have fallin from my faith in the Lord, in order to see the glory of someone elses gods"
 
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jrmorganjr

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Anyway I have learned all I needed to learn: Most Christians are discriminatory towards others w/o even understanding them

I understand you just fine. Stop trying to attempt to pass on wicca as morally equivalent to Christianity while claiming to be a Christian. This is clear errancy.

Noone is discriminating towards you, you're free to do everything everyone else is here without prejudice. However, myself and others are discerning that you hold anti-Christ-ian views, esp. on the subject of what constitutes sin, and what "judging" means.

Why not just declare yourself a wiccan Christian or Christian wiccan, and get it over with? At least people will see more clearly what you stand for. You cannot serve two masters. You will hate the one and love the other, or the other way around.

Again, wicca is a stumbling block to your walk with Christ. Come out!
 
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