Those of you who believe: help me with this debate

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apenman

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In the six day creation, the sun and moon aren't created until the third day, so there is really no reference of time in that accounting. I believe in old earth, but I also believe that evolution and creation are mixed in together. However, if the universe was created from outside of time, which I believe it was, then we cannot understand creation by looking at it exclusively from inside of time.
 
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disciple00

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apenman said:
In the six day creation, the sun and moon aren't created until the third day, so there is really no reference of time in that accounting. I believe in old earth, but I also believe that evolution and creation are mixed in together. However, if the universe was created from outside of time, which I believe it was, then we cannot understand creation by looking at it exclusively from inside of time.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


if you read the text it is evident that day and night (hence evening and morning) were created before the sun, moon, and stars.... so i don't see how you got you're pov.

disciple00
 
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apenman

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disciple00 said:
if you read the text it is evident that day and night (hence evening and morning) were created before the sun, moon, and stars.... so i don't see how you got you're pov.

disciple00
I'm saying that the way it is written does not provide a clear reference of time, and it does not. An evening and morning without sun, moon and stars could mean anything, as far as time is concerned. It could even be a reference to a day in heaven, outside of time. To assume that it refers to anything that we would call a day is an unwise assumption.
 
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disciple00

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Treasure the Questions said:
I wash my hands of you, disciple, but I pray God will open your eyes to the truth that stares back at you from his glorious creation.
wow, it's been weeks since i have been written off like that, tell me, do you love me?



Treasure the Questions said:
Life is too short,
man you don't believe anything that's written in the bible do you:
1st john 5:13 ''These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.''
life isn't short, it's eternal :clap:

Treasure the Questions said:
and there are far better things to do than argue with people who have closed their minds to reality. Disciple suggests one who is open to learning.:scratch:

K
yeah, if i were not a loving person i might say the same thing, but as jesus told peter ''feed my sheep'', so, i won't give up on you. anyhow, to clear one thing up, i hope you don't thing i was taking a cheap shot at your husband, (i wasn't, infact i love the man) the point i was getting at is explained by this verses:
1st corinthians 2:5 ''That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.''

1st corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

but i guess you woun't take that literally would you :cry:

disciple00
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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disciple00 said:
i am sorry i must have missed your example, they looked like generalized accusations to me, could you please repost your examples, with big letters so a dunce such a i can read them.
Lazy bugger! Anyway, just for you:

Lies:

#1 Evolutionists are atheists
#2 If the moon were old there would be yards of dust on it
#3 The Big Bang says that a singularity spun faster and faster until it exploded, and all the stars and planets came out of it
#4 There is no evidence for evolution
#5 Transitional fossils are fakes
#6 Archaeopteryx is a anatomically a modern bird
#7 Scientists use carbon dating to date rocks
#8 The SLoT means that everything gets more disordered
#9 There are no examples of beneficial mutations
#10 Darwin recanted the ToE on his deathbed.



ok, so, doe that mean that it didn't happen?
No.

or did God manage to pull something off that would be considered impossible?
Yes.

maybe God need to take a few medical science classes, just os he knows to top doing the impossible.
It's God's prerogative to do the impossible.

does it matter to you at all that if the univesre were millions of years old that there are certain ovservations that we indeed couldn't make?
It would if we made them. We don't.

what about genetic loading?
What about it?

plus, knowing how fragile life is, how could life form over such a long time? you see anything less than an instant would produce a dead organism,
"less than an instant" is meaningless.

and anything longer than an instant would be too long, and anything less would be poof of creation .
Baseless assertion.

can you explaine to me how life would have formed in the presence or absen of oxygen?
The early earth had no free oxygen in its atmosphere. Many simple life forms do not require oxygen. There is no problem.

what about the earths magnetic field, if the earth were millions of years old, it wouldn't have one any more, and only a few hundred thousand year ago the field would have been so strong that it would have killed all life on the planet?
The earth's magnetic field waxes and wanes over time, and even completely reverses. You've been lied to. Lie #11 - the earth's magnetic field has always been decreasing and millions of years ago would have been too strong.

Have you ever heard of magnetic striping on the sea floor?

but didn't you just tell me that ''in normal circumstances crucified men don't rise from the dead.'' tell me mr. smarty pants, can you tell me about any abnormal circumstances that would scientifically explaine to me how jesus' resurection i posssible? what about lazerous, he wa in the tomb for a week and was stinking, you know decomposing, what about him?
The presence of God in the flesh is not "normal circumstances".

well, i look at the keyboard when i type :cool: but i suppose you ahve found us out..... you boy genius you..
Are the "i" and "e" keys invisible, but the "y" easy to find, then? ;)
 
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God'sgal

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so...many...questions...; okay, here I go, I hope I answer them all.

First, one of the most frequently asked questions concerning God is "If God is good, then He must not be powerful enough to deal with all the evil and injustice in the world since it is still going on. If He is powerful enough to stop the wrongdoing then He must be evil since He's not doing anything about it. So which is it? Is He a bad God or a God that's not powerful? Blah, Blah, Blah..." If you've been a Christian for more then 5 minutes you've heard that argument. The first thing you have to deal with is people's common misperception of evil. Many people say that the existence of evil disproves the goodness of God. The argument is that if God created everything in the world and evil is in the world, then God must have created evil, and if God created evil how can He be good?

The flaw here is the assumption that evil was created in the first place. Is there such a thing as light? Yes, of course there is. Is there such a thing as darkness, the opposite of light? No. Darkness is not the opposite of light, rather it is the absence of light, and an absence can't be created. If darkness was a thing in and of itself then we could make dark, but we can't. All we can do is take away light. Another example would be temperature, is there such a thing as heat? Yes. Is there such a thing as cold? No. The condition that we call cold, is not the opposite of heat, it is the absence of heat.

Now, how to relate this to God and the obvious existence of evil? If darkness is not the opposite of light but the absence of light, and cold is not the opposite of heat but the absence of heat, then is it possible that evil is not the opposite of good, but rather the absence of good?

If we classify evil as the absence of good, then it could not be a created thing, and if it is not a created thing, then God could not have created it.

So evil has always been here because God has always been here. God is pure good, and the absence of God is pure evil. Think of the yin/yang. For God to eliminate evil He would have to eliminate himself.

Now, about "free will"- The only way to have someone truly love you is to give them the option of not loving you. Would you rather have a girlfirend who has chosen to love you or a robot who is programmed to act as if they love you. There would be no true love with the robot, since it was not the robots choice. It would be acting out a series of programs, not love, which is a choice. You can choose to love someone, but you can't make them love you, otherwise John Travolta would return my phone calls... (just kidding).

God, in His infinite wisdom knew this at the beginning, and gave us the choice to obey or not to obey; to eat of the tree or not eat of the tree. And that brings me to another common misperception: The tree. God didn't want us to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because we would then know evil as well as good. Before, we were happy in our ignorence, like a child who doesn't understand death. Because of this knowledge, God didn't want us to also eat of the tree of life: we could then have all the capabilities of evil and live forever- and only God can have both infinite knowlege and eternal life, so he banished us. Now, that said, let's get to Satan.

The word Satan means slanderer, accuser. He is the one who is trying to use knowledge against us to confuse us with factoids, and he is the one who is trying to sway us. Why does God allow this? Why doesn't God just wipe him out? Let me ask you a question: If there were Superman, but no Lex Luther, would superman be super? No, he would not be able to prove himself a superhero by defeating Lex. He'd just be a farm hand who did all his chores really really fast. What makes superman a hero is his herosim. That can only be claimed by winning, and you can't win if there is no one to fight you. God allows Satan to exist because it glorifies Him, it makes him the Winner because He has defeated Satan. The bible says Satan was cast out, which if you look at the translation it's more like us saying "fallen from grace" It's not a change of location, but a change of status. From being God's right hand guy to being a outcast. This is more illustrated when you put it in the context that God defeated Satan at the cross, and will defeat him again in the last days.

As to why bad things happen to good people, think of this:
Dr. Brand worked for years treating leprosy patients in India and America. During his labors he arrived at an astonishing conclusion concerning the pathology of leprosy.
Leprosy victims suffer the curse of having their extremities—fingers, toes, feet and even nose and ears—deteriorate and waste away, but no one knew why. Before Dr. Brand’s research, doctors assumed lepers were cursed with “bad flesh.” Dr. Brand’s remarkable discovery was that the problem lies in leprosy bacilli, which attack the nerves of body parts, triggering a process that leads to the death of the nerves. When this occurs, a patient who incurs the slightest wound—even a bruise—to an afflicted area feels absolutely no pain. Consequently he continues to use the damaged body part. This repeated use aggravates the wound. Eventually the tissue becomes so damaged that the flesh actually dies and sloughs off.

Dr. Brand began treating the wounds of lepers by protecting them, sometimes with casts. The wounds would often heal and not suffer further damage. The protected flesh would become sound again, even though the leper did not regain sensation in the affected body part because the neural tissue had permanently deteriorated.

Dr. Brand concluded that pain is a gift from God that alerts us to the fact that something has gone wrong.

The doctor’s determination applies to most diseases, not just leprosy. When we hurt, we should respond to our body’s signals and take measures to relieve the pain and eliminate the underlying cause. “I had no idea how vulnerable the body becomes when it lacks a warning system,” concludes Dr. Brand (Brand and Yancey, p. 121).

And another thing, pain has a purpose, to glorify God:
Studies have shown that a person’s ability to endure pain is aided by a sense of control over it. We should do what we can to ease, manage and gain control over our suffering. Then we can realize we are not pawns subjected to the whim of pain, and we can choose to retain control over our attitudes and our responses to our pain.

As God’s servants we must learn that ultimately God is in control, and He is merciful. He is willing and able to deliver us. His ears are open to our prayers (1 Peter 3:12).

But He expects us to rely on His judgment and timing and trust Him implicitly. “We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia,” wrote Paul. “We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us” (2 Corinthians 1:8-10, NIV).
Hope this helps.....
 
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disciple00

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QUOTE]
Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Lazy bugger! Anyway, just for you:
i have had many passtimes but buggery has never been one of them.

Lies:

#1 Evolutionists are atheists

many of them are, infact the majority of them are, granted generalizations usually leave a few out in the cold, but, i have seen you make alot of generalizations.


#2 If the moon were old there would be yards of dust on it
why wouldn't there be yards of dust on it? it's not like the dust will fall off of the moon. however i do have a question, if the moon were millions of years old, wouldn't the craters on it be a little more evenly spaced?

i gotta go, i'll finish my reply later... thanks man


disciple00
 
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disciple00

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Lazy bugger! Anyway, just for you:

Lies:

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
#3 The Big Bang says that a singularity spun faster and faster until it exploded, and all the stars and planets came out of it
thats the way it was presented to me in high school, i have heard it presented in a few different ways, but i have never heard a convincing rendition on it, perhaps you could pontificate and give me a better version of this theory
Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
#4 There is no evidence for evolution
tell me, what evidence could there be for something that never happened?


Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
#5 Transitional fossils are fakes
do you have examples that aren't fake?

#6 Archaeopteryx is a anatomically a modern bird
actually i have heard that archaeopteryx was a fake too, would you consider the Australian platypus evidence the ducks are evolving into beavers, or beavers into ducks?

#7 Scientists use carbon dating to date rocks
i haven't heard that one before, i have heard of carbon dating on fossils but never ordinary rocks, however i have never heard a good explanation as to why in many places around the world the geological column is out of order or missing certain levels. besides, carbon dating is only acurate if your test subject has been subject to contamination, which is more rare than one would think. the odds of contaminating a sample, especially if it were lying in the Earth for a long period of time is sooo close to 100% i don't take that method seriously.

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
#8 The SLoT means that everything gets more disordered
personally i could care less what the SLoT says, i can observe that on my own, it's even evident in living organisms via mutations.
Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
#9 There are no examples of beneficial mutations
can you show me one example of a beneficial mutation?
Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
#10 Darwin recanted the ToE on his deathbed.
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well, Jesus said you'll know someone by their fruits, and Darwin never impressed me with much of anything he did. what he said, death bed or not, is useless.




Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
It's God's prerogative to do the impossible.
what then is your big problem with a six day creation?



Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
The early earth had no free oxygen in its atmosphere. Many simple life forms do not require oxygen. There is no problem.
and you know this because you were there and you tested the atmosphere? tell me, how did those first critters survive all the UV rays and solar radiation from the sun?


Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
The earth's magnetic field waxes and wanes over time, and even completely reverses. You've been lied to. Lie #11 - the earth's magnetic field has always been decreasing and millions of years ago would have been too strong.
really what evidence do you have? do you think the earth's magnetic field is getting stronger then? what is the cause of the waxing and waning?




Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
The presence of God in the flesh is not "normal circumstances".
john 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
1st Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
psalms 104 28-30 28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
are you sure about that, oh that's right, when God says something you don't take him literally.

disciple00
 
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artybloke

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do you have examples that aren't fake?

Have you any examples of ones that are?

actually i have heard that archaeopteryx was a fake too

References?

what then is your big problem with a six day creation?

It contradicts the evidence. All of it. God doesn't lie in the evidence He left behind of how He created in the world.
 
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disciple00

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artybloke said:
Have you any examples of ones that are?
take your pick of any one of those dead monkies that were dug up and then touted as a common ancestor of man and ape



References?
well, disregarding the most reliable ones from scripture, the majority of my references come from www.evolution-facts.org, along with some from your beloved Dr. hovind.


It contradicts the evidence. All of it. God doesn't lie in the evidence He left behind of how He created in the world.
now, i will certainly agree with you that there be alot of evidence left over from when God created everything. however my doubts lie in you ability to understand the evidence. do you know anything about the london artifact?
anyhow, glad to see you still reading this thread....

disciple00
 
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disciple00

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artybloke said:
Ah yes, the amazing disappearing up his own fundament, doctorate-buying, lying Dr. Hovind.
go check out www.evolution-facts.org i know that just the name dr hovind brings all kinds of mockery from blokes such as your self, though i have never heard a good rebuttle, just mockery... odd...

disciple00
 
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