Old Testament Question

Dear Manda_24,

Manda_24 said:

I don't know where I should put this so hopefully this is the right place.

A friend of mine asked me this question today and I don't exactly know how to answer her. I did give her a little information so she has a place to start but I was hoping someone could give me some more information.

"so before Jesus was alive and died on the cross and all, what happened to people when they died? I mean, I know heaven was around, but what determined whether people went to heaven or not? And if they did make it to heaven, how'd they get there without Jesus?"

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They didn't, since the fall of Adam and Eve there has only been one way back into the fathers presence, through Jesus Christ. The people of the old testament looked forward in faith to his atonement and sacrifice. Since the time of his sacrifice believers look back in faith having hope in his death and resurrection. No one every entered into the presence of God the father until Christ was resurrected, he being the first fruits of the resurrection.

with love and respect, andy153

The best picture we have of what occured after death in the time before Christ's sacrifice is found in Luke 16:19-31. This is obviously not referring to Heaven as we think of it in this age of grace, nor does Hades seem to refer to the eternal hellfire mentioned in Revelation. There was however, a place of punishment and a place of reward set aside for those that died before the final sacrifice of Christ.
Anyway, that is where I would direct anyone that asked that question of me.

I always understood that they were saved by following the Old Testament laws because Jesus had not yet come. I am not sure if this understanding is correct or not but I did do a search on Google about this and came up with some articles:

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=377

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot.htm

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/faith.html

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/questions/answer/bible/otpeople/otpsaved.xml/

Hope this helps!

Manda_24 said:

"so before Jesus was alive and died on the cross and all, what happened to people when they died? I mean, I know heaven was around, but what determined whether people went to heaven or not? And if they did make it to heaven, how'd they get there without Jesus?"

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Greetings Manda,

I think the best example given us in the scriptures is the one of Abraham (of who is the "father of us in the faith"). He was not justified before God by his deeds, but rather by his "faithfulness to God". The NT is replete with references to him. AND I agree with another poster, that the OT saints "looked forward" to their redemption", but the NT believers, "look back" to the cross for their redemption.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

http://www.layhands.com/DidJesusGoToHell.htm


This article explains a lot about Heaven and Hell for peope before the crucifiction, it goes on to explain about Jesus going to hell or not.

We must watch what we say because:

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
MT 16:19
_______

My understanding of YHSHWH'S WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation), the only ones that get to hell,
before and after YHSHWH as our SAVIOR WHO was SACRIFICED, are those that choose to.

Who goes to hell?
Those that do not choose YHSHWH'S WAYS.
They choose to go to hell.

Before YHSHWH'S SACRIFICE as our LAMB,
the SACRIFICE of the lamb (the animal) was a shadow (a reminder)
of the real FINAL SACRIFICE based on the first SACRIFICE.
The first SACRIFICE was an animal (I believe a lamb) that was killed,
instead of the first man and woman because of their sin,
and it's INNOCENT SKIN was placed on them
to cover their nakedness (their sin). (Genesis 3:21)

Anyone who honored that SACRIFICE, in FAITH,
was righteous in YHSHWH'S EYES.
Look at ABEL when he offered to YHSHWH
what YHSHWH had done for us - SACRIFICED a lamb.(Genesis 4:2-5)
The YHSHWH'S SACRIFICE was misused by many.


YHSHWH GOD came as a HUMAN to take the place of the lamb
and REDEEM us from the death that we deserved.
We are to take YHSHWH'S SACRIFICE and put HIM on.(Gal. 3:27)
Then, we offer ourselves to HIM as HIS through HIS SACRIFICE.
Many misuse HIS SACRIFICE, today.
_______

And any who choose not to accept HIS TRUE and FINAL SACRIFICE:

I am he that liveth, and was dead;
and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hell and of death.
REV 1:18

We are HIS and we will LIVE FOREVER with HIM.
LOVE, RICOEL

Holly3278 said:

I always understood that they were saved by following the Old Testament laws because Jesus had not yet come. I am not sure if this understanding is correct or not but I did do a search on Google about this and came up with some articles

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Saying that would mean that Jesus wasnt needed because people could have just kept following those laws even up till today.

Manda_24 said:

I don't know where I should put this so hopefully this is the right place.

A friend of mine asked me this question today and I don't exactly know how to answer her. I did give her a little information so she has a place to start but I was hoping someone could give me some more information.

"so before Jesus was alive and died on the cross and all, what happened to people when they died? I mean, I know heaven was around, but what determined whether people went to heaven or not? And if they did make it to heaven, how'd they get there without Jesus?"

Click to expand...

Hi there.

Jesus died for the people who lived even before He did. It doesn't really matter if they lived before Him or not. God gave Adam and Eve the promise of Jesus to restore their eternity, so by this we know that Jesus died for past and present.

In Dante's Inferno, Old Testment patriarchs and other righteous man were said to have waited in the Limb till Jesus resurrection, and then were taken in Heaven. I quite share this vision...

Manda_24 said:

I don't know where I should put this so hopefully this is the right place.

A friend of mine asked me this question today and I don't exactly know how to answer her. I did give her a little information so she has a place to start but I was hoping someone could give me some more information.

"so before Jesus was alive and died on the cross and all, what happened to people when they died? I mean, I know heaven was around, but what determined whether people went to heaven or not? And if they did make it to heaven, how'd they get there without Jesus?"

Click to expand...

Same answer to a different thread.

How are people judged who do not know G-d?

Romans 2
11 For (22) there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned (23) without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is (24) not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do (25) instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show (26) the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, (27) according to my gospel, (28) God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

One thing that we have to keep in mind is that salvation has always been available (to the Jew and the Gentile).

Isaiah 45
22
"(1) Turn to Me and (2) be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Salvation is by the grace of G-d alone; yet it is enacted by our repentence. The phrase "Turn to Me" is the same as saying "repent".

Therefore, those who know G-d must repent to be saved. Those who are ignorant of the ways of G-d are judged by their conscience.

m.d.

Manda_24 said:

I don't know where I should put this so hopefully this is the right place.

A friend of mine asked me this question today and I don't exactly know how to answer her. I did give her a little information so she has a place to start but I was hoping someone could give me some more information.

"so before Jesus was alive and died on the cross and all, what happened to people when they died? I mean, I know heaven was around, but what determined whether people went to heaven or not? And if they did make it to heaven, how'd they get there without Jesus?"

Click to expand...

Mattew 11, 11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Who is born of woman can go to the Kingdom of Heaven;
we Christians have a mother who is the Mother of God(John 19, 27)
therefore we are born of woman...............
Who was born of woman before Jesus?
I think nobody....
I don't think others can be superior to the born of woman.
Mattew 8, 11 says we will be in Heaven with Abraham etc...,
maybe exists another Heaven that is inferior.......

IF God doesn't change the rules then the OT people were elect got to Heaven on the basis of Jesus' future resurrection. Doesn't have anything to do with the Mosiac Covenant. The MC was strictly a social contract had nothing to do with salvation.

billwald said:

IF God doesn't change the rules then the OT people were elect got to Heaven on the basis of Jesus' future resurrection. Doesn't have anything to do with the Mosiac Covenant. The MC was strictly a social contract had nothing to do with salvation.

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Try reading Isaiah 45:22 again, and then come back with Scripture to refute it.

Salvation has always been by the grace of G-d, and the catalyst for it is repentance.

Salvation has always been by the grace of G-d, and the catalyst for it is repentance.
False dichotomy. Repentance is part of God's grace, not separate to it.
If you can repent without grace, then you don't need grace.

So back to the basics for you. Start with Galations: "I through the law am dead to the law".


Try reading Isaiah 45:22 again, and then come back with Scripture to refute it.
Who needs to refute it when it refutes you?
Here it is for all to see: "return unto me, FOR I have redeemed thee".
So, as said above, the redemption causes the returning (repentance), and not the reverse.