Oneness of God
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GJG; Can you agree that isaiah 9:6 does not say that Jesus IS the almighty but that it says that Jesus (a child) has a name that shall be called the almighty? And therefore is not proof that Jesus is the almighty, but merely proof that jesus shall have a name that shall be called the almighty? You wrote much to respond to and I dont have time to write a book to answer all your assertions. In this forum it is better to stay focused don't you think?
I'll take one of the scriptures you quoted heb 1:8 which is a quote of ps. 45:6 in the OT. if you examine that chapter of Psalms you will see that "Thou art fairer than the sons of men; grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. "
Psalms 45:2 (Darby). God is the God of the son not the son is God of the son. So to interpret vs. 6 or heb1:8 to mean that Jesus is God contradicts all the surrounding verses in psalms 45 which plainly state that God is the God of the son . not the son.
Actually what I believe is going on here in vrse 6 of psalms , or heb1:8, is that the son is being used as a metonymy for God. Like when we say "drink this cup". WE dont mean to drink the ceramic cup but what is in the cup. Jesus is often used in scritpure as a metonymy for God because he is so closely identified with the one who indwells him so fully, col.2:9."For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body ."
Col 2:9 (NLT)
I'll take one of the scriptures you quoted heb 1:8 which is a quote of ps. 45:6 in the OT. if you examine that chapter of Psalms you will see that "Thou art fairer than the sons of men; grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. "
Psalms 45:2 (Darby). God is the God of the son not the son is God of the son. So to interpret vs. 6 or heb1:8 to mean that Jesus is God contradicts all the surrounding verses in psalms 45 which plainly state that God is the God of the son . not the son.
Actually what I believe is going on here in vrse 6 of psalms , or heb1:8, is that the son is being used as a metonymy for God. Like when we say "drink this cup". WE dont mean to drink the ceramic cup but what is in the cup. Jesus is often used in scritpure as a metonymy for God because he is so closely identified with the one who indwells him so fully, col.2:9."For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body ."
Col 2:9 (NLT)
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So GJG - are you in BIble College right now? A UPC bible college? Whereabouts? I have some friends who attended the UPC Bible College in New Brunswick.
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DER ALTER
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You claim that the We and Us form of monarchian language IS NOT FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT . . .
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Au contraire! Here are some Biblical examples of the *majestic plural* that are just like the ones I illustrated using the Queen of England and John F. Kennedy.
This is what Daniel said to King Nebuchadnezzar:
"WE will tell the interpretation thereof before the king"
Daniel said "We" and yet it was just Daniel who went on to give the interpretation to Nebuchadnezzar. (Daniel 2:36)
Then there was King Artaxerxes. He referred to himself singularly and then in plural within the same letter. In Ezra 4:18, he wrote:
"The letter which ye sent unto US hath been plainly read before ME"
See also Ezra 7:13 & 24 where the very same thing occurs!
I just gave you two examples from the Old Testament even though you said that this form of monarchism language did not exit in the Old Testament!
--
You claim that the We and Us form of monarchian language IS NOT FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT . . .
--
Au contraire! Here are some Biblical examples of the *majestic plural* that are just like the ones I illustrated using the Queen of England and John F. Kennedy.
This is what Daniel said to King Nebuchadnezzar:
"WE will tell the interpretation thereof before the king"
Daniel said "We" and yet it was just Daniel who went on to give the interpretation to Nebuchadnezzar. (Daniel 2:36)
Then there was King Artaxerxes. He referred to himself singularly and then in plural within the same letter. In Ezra 4:18, he wrote:
"The letter which ye sent unto US hath been plainly read before ME"
See also Ezra 7:13 & 24 where the very same thing occurs!
I just gave you two examples from the Old Testament even though you said that this form of monarchism language did not exit in the Old Testament!
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Genesis 1:26 - God said, "Let US make man in OUR image".
There is no reason NOT to believe that God didn't include the angels when He created the world. After verse 26, we see that GOD made man in HIS image. So, to say that the angels didn't help God create the world - you are right. But, there's no biblical reason to say that God did not share his plans with the angels. It's safe to say that the angels were his friends. So, when he decided to create the world, He shared His plans with them.
There is also no Biblical reason to say that the angels weren't also made in God's image. Neither you nor I have seen God in all His majesty.
There is no reason NOT to believe that God didn't include the angels when He created the world. After verse 26, we see that GOD made man in HIS image. So, to say that the angels didn't help God create the world - you are right. But, there's no biblical reason to say that God did not share his plans with the angels. It's safe to say that the angels were his friends. So, when he decided to create the world, He shared His plans with them.
There is also no Biblical reason to say that the angels weren't also made in God's image. Neither you nor I have seen God in all His majesty.
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Thx 4 the replyjessedance said:
Could you give me your thoughts on how you would "describe" God, would you agree with the previous "description of what God is" a few posts back?
I suppose that I believe the "name of Jesus" to belong to God, not the body of Jesus, as we know that our bodies are not our "true-self" and "flesh" is unable to enter heaven anyway. It seems to be pretty clear that Jesus is called God, aswell as He Himself pointing this very fact out many times. His flesh certainly is not Divine, however, the "fulness of God" is definately within that pure, sinless body of His. Due to the absence of sin (seperation from God), this is ineed the man-christ (dual-nature) spoken of as the "Mighty God". Also; Divinty clothed in humanity. "God with us" simply cannot be ignored. The Godliness of this man-Christ Jesus was something that was revealed to Paul at His very first encounter with God.
Sorry gotta go, I'll try to elaborate at a later date if you wish
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Bekah Ferguson said:
[size=+1]Oh please, this response is so transparent. You are just despertely grasping at anything you think will support you. This verse is NOT God simply sharing His intentions with the angels. When you say to someone "Let us go to the mall." are you sharing your plans or including them in your plans? God did NOT tell the angels, "I am going to create man in MY image and after MY likeness." If words mean anything, God was speaking to another who participated with Him in the creation.[/size]
Gen 1:26 - God said, Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness.
Bekah Ferguson said:
[size=+1]Actually the term I used was not “Monarchism,” which is an early Christian heresy, but I said the “Plural of Majesty” or the fancy term “Pluralis Majestaticus.”
I think you need to go back to your “Oneness” site and cut and paste some more because neither one of these proves your assertion. And the one you referred to Ezra 7:13 & 24 does not have any language remotely close. But you missed one. There is one other verse in the OT that “Oneness” believers try to use but it can be quickly dismissed as these two.
First is Daniel using the plural of majesty? This is ludicrous on its face, Daniel was a slave NOT royalty. And you forgot to read the verse in-context. Daniel was speaking for God, see vs. 28.[/size]
Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
36 This is the dream; and we [God and Daniel] will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Ezra 3:18 The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.
Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
7:24 Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them.
Isaiah 54:5 For thy Makers is thine husbands; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Ecclesiastes 12:1 Remember now thy Creators in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
6. The royal "we"--plural of majesty
Just as Queen Victoria referred to herself in the plural ("We are not amused"), some say that God, as a majestic being, referred to himself the same way. This is a popular contemporary explanation. It does not raise the question of other beings. It rules out the possibility of God having a plural nature. It seems to be based on good linguistic evidence and analysis.
The Hertz Commentary on Genesis sees this explanation as one of two possibilities and points out that the first person plural is used for royalty in the Book of Ezra.(14 ) "The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me" (Ezra 4:18) is the sole example of a "plural of majesty" construction in Scripture. It also happens to be one of the few portions of Scripture in Aramaic, a language similar to Hebrew.
It would be poor scholarship to build a case for a grammatical construction in Hebrew on the grounds of this Aramaic text. Even so, the Ezra passage does not necessarily contain a singular royal subject linked to a plural verb-form. If the plural of majesty were a regular Hebrew idiom, why is the singular "me" in the same line?
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm
2. The Use of the Plural Pronoun.
In the Creation, Fall, and Babel accounts (Genesis 1, 3 and 11), we see an interesting use of the plural pronoun as God is speaking.
Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness..." (Genesis 1:26).
Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of US, knowing good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22).
And the Lord said, "Behold, they are one people and they all have the same language. And this is what they begin to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.
"Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech." (Genesis 11:6-7).
How are we to understand these uses of "US" and "OUR"? It has been argued that perhaps God was merely speaking with the angels. However, in each case, the context indicates that it is GOD who accomplished the planned action, even when the plan is described in the plural. For example, after the stated intention to create man, we read...
And GOD created man in His own image, in the image of God He created Him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27).
It does not say that man was created in the image of God and the angels. Neither do we ever read that the angels had any part in that creative work. Man is said to have been created by God and in the image of God.
It has been argued that this is also an example of the Hebrew plural of majesty. However, there is no other ancient example of such a plural of majesty being used in the form of a pronoun of anyone other than God.
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/theology/09god5.html
This first person plural can hardly be a mere editorial or royal plural that refers to the speaker alone, for no such usage is demonstrable anywhere else in biblical Hebrew. Therefore, we must face the question of who are included in this "us" and "our." It could hardly include the angels in consultation with God, for nowhere is it ever stated that man was created in the image of angels, only of God. Verse 27 then affirms: "and God [Elohim] created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them" (NASB). God--the same God who spoke of Himself in the plural--now states that He created man in His image. In other words, the plural equals the singular. This can only be understood in terms of the Trinitarian nature of God. The one true God subsists in three Persons, Persons who are able to confer with one another and carry their plans into action together--without ceasing to be one God. (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Archer, p.359, emphasis added)
http://www.jude3.net/trinitygen.htm
Fourth, some anti-Trinitarians have attempted to dismiss the passage as an example of the plural of majesty (pluralis majestaticus), much like Queen Victoria of England who is reported to have said, "We are not amused."
The only problem with this argument is that there was no plural of majesty in the Hebrew language during biblical times. Rabbi Tzvi Nassi, a lecturer in Hebrew at Oxford University, explains:
Every one who is acquainted with the rudiments of the Hebrew and Chaldee languages, must know that God, in the holy Writings, very often spoke of Himself in the plural. The passages are numerous, in which, instead of a grammatical agreement between the subject and predicate, we meet with a construction, which some modern grammarians, who possess more of the so-called philosophical than of the real knowledge of the Oriental languages, call a pluralis excellentiae. This helps them out of every apparent difficulty. Such a pluralis excellentiae was, however, a thing unknown to Moses and the prophets. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, David, and all the other kings, throughout TeNaKh (the Law, the Prophets, and the Hagiographa) speak in the singular, and not as modern kings in the plural. They do not say we, but I, command; as in Gen. xli. 41; Dan. iii. 29; Ezra i. 2, etc.[5]
http://answering-islam.org/Trinity/morey7.html
An Amazing Hoax
During the nineteenth century debates between Unitarians and Trinitarians, the principle of pluralis majestaticus was revealed to be a hoax popularized by the famous Jewish scholar Gesenius. It became clear that he used it as a ruse de guerre against Christianity.
The fundamental error resided in the attempt to take a modern monarchical idiosyncrasy and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown at that time. Richard Davies in 1891 pointed out, "Indeed, this royal style is unknown in Scripture."[6]
What is astounding is that, one hundred years later, the anti-Trinitarians are still using this hoax to dodge the significance of the use of plural pronouns in reference to God. They seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that it is a recent grammatical invention and, thus, cannot be read back into ancient times or texts.
We must also point out that anti-Trinitarians now apply the principle of pluralis majestaticus to all plural words of God when the principle really only relates to direct discourse, i.e., "Us" and "Our" passages. It is even invoked as a way to explain away the significance of the plural word elohim in such places as Genesis 1:1. But since Genesis 1:1 is not a direct discourse, the appeal to a supposed "plurality of majesty" is nothing more than a ruse.
http://answering-islam.org/Trinity/morey7.html#hoax
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Dear Readers;
Gen. 1:26,27 is the entire plan of God in germ seed form. It is the "end declared from the beginnning spoken of in Isaiah 46:9,10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me; 10 declaring the END FROM THE BEGINNING, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV). Gen 1:26 is prophetic, it was spoken of before the actual event. and it is an apostrophe (spoken to someone who is not there.)
Examples of other apostrophes in the bible would be isaiah 45:1 where God spoke to cyrus 175 years before he was even born, or psalms 2:11 where God speaks to Jesus saying "this day have I begotten thee". That was way before Jesus was even born and god was speaking to him.
gen 1:26 says "make ( heb word here is asah which means to produce through labour) man" Gen. 1:27 says "He created (heb word here is bara which means to create.) These two hebrew words are not synonyms and these two verses aren't refering to the same event. Gen.1:26 is prophecy, and Gen . 1:27 is historical.
Man was created in God's image in that he walks upright,he can speak, he has intelligence, he has dominon over the earth, etc.
Man is made in the image of God in such things as integrety, character, holiness, glory, love, spirituality. All these attributes, which are attributes of God require labor, being made .
You see, god didn't make man instantaneously in his likeness because God wanted man to choose God of his own free will.
"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be MADE RIGHTEOUS." Rom. 5:19 ASV. We are made righteous, legaly and experientaly because of Jesus. Jesus is what God intended to make man into. ". who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;"
Col 1:15 (ASV). Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
"in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the IMAGE OF GOD, should not dawn upon them. "
2 Cor 4:4 (ASV).
"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the IMAGE of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: "
Romans 8:29 (ASV).
So cleary from these scriptures we see that we are to be in the image of Christ who is the image of God.
We are being made into the image of christ, and therefore the image of God as God prophesised in Gen. 1:26 at the very beginning.
"that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with US: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:"
1 John 1:3 (ASV). Here we see US as being God and Christ and the church. THis is the US refered to in Gen. 1:26.
"
lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the IMAGE of him that created him:
Col 3:9-10 (ASV)
Here are some verses that show Christ working with God to make man in their image. "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work "
John 4:34 (ASV).
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work."
John 5:17 (ASV)
"But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me "
John 5:36 (ASV)
"We must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work"
John 9:4 (ASV).
And I could show you more similar verses.
Now I want to show you verses that prove we are co-workers with Christ and God in this effort to make man in OUR IMAGE.
"And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen. "
Mark 16:20 (ASV)
"And working together with him we entreat also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain "
2 Cor 6:1 (ASV)
"For we are God's fellow-workers: ye are God's husbandry, God's building. "
1 Cor 3:9 (ASV)
"
and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen"
Rev 1:6 (ASV).
Gen. 1:26,27 is the entire plan of God in germ seed form. It is the "end declared from the beginnning spoken of in Isaiah 46:9,10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me; 10 declaring the END FROM THE BEGINNING, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV). Gen 1:26 is prophetic, it was spoken of before the actual event. and it is an apostrophe (spoken to someone who is not there.)
Examples of other apostrophes in the bible would be isaiah 45:1 where God spoke to cyrus 175 years before he was even born, or psalms 2:11 where God speaks to Jesus saying "this day have I begotten thee". That was way before Jesus was even born and god was speaking to him.
gen 1:26 says "make ( heb word here is asah which means to produce through labour) man" Gen. 1:27 says "He created (heb word here is bara which means to create.) These two hebrew words are not synonyms and these two verses aren't refering to the same event. Gen.1:26 is prophecy, and Gen . 1:27 is historical.
Man was created in God's image in that he walks upright,he can speak, he has intelligence, he has dominon over the earth, etc.
Man is made in the image of God in such things as integrety, character, holiness, glory, love, spirituality. All these attributes, which are attributes of God require labor, being made .
You see, god didn't make man instantaneously in his likeness because God wanted man to choose God of his own free will.
"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be MADE RIGHTEOUS." Rom. 5:19 ASV. We are made righteous, legaly and experientaly because of Jesus. Jesus is what God intended to make man into. ". who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;"
Col 1:15 (ASV). Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
"in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the IMAGE OF GOD, should not dawn upon them. "
2 Cor 4:4 (ASV).
"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the IMAGE of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: "
Romans 8:29 (ASV).
So cleary from these scriptures we see that we are to be in the image of Christ who is the image of God.
We are being made into the image of christ, and therefore the image of God as God prophesised in Gen. 1:26 at the very beginning.
"that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with US: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:"
1 John 1:3 (ASV). Here we see US as being God and Christ and the church. THis is the US refered to in Gen. 1:26.
"
lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the IMAGE of him that created him:
Col 3:9-10 (ASV)
Here are some verses that show Christ working with God to make man in their image. "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work "
John 4:34 (ASV).
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work."
John 5:17 (ASV)
"But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me "
John 5:36 (ASV)
"We must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work"
John 9:4 (ASV).
And I could show you more similar verses.
Now I want to show you verses that prove we are co-workers with Christ and God in this effort to make man in OUR IMAGE.
"And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen. "
Mark 16:20 (ASV)
"And working together with him we entreat also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain "
2 Cor 6:1 (ASV)
"For we are God's fellow-workers: ye are God's husbandry, God's building. "
1 Cor 3:9 (ASV)
"
and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen"
Rev 1:6 (ASV).
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Der Alter said:
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2. The Use of the Plural Pronoun.
In the Creation, Fall, and Babel accounts (Genesis 1, 3 and 11), we see an interesting use of the plural pronoun as God is speaking.
Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness..." (Genesis 1:26).
Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of US, knowing good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22).
And the Lord said, "Behold, they are one people and they all have the same language. And this is what they begin to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.
"Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one anothers speech." (Genesis 11:6-7).
How are we to understand these uses of "US" and "OUR"? It has been argued that perhaps God was merely speaking with the angels. However, in each case, the context indicates that it is GOD who accomplished the planned action, even when the plan is described in the plural. For example, after the stated intention to create man, we read...
And GOD created man in His own image, in the image of God He created Him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27).
It does not say that man was created in the image of God and the angels. Neither do we ever read that the angels had any part in that creative work. Man is said to have been created by God and in the image of God.
It has been argued that this is also an example of the Hebrew plural of majesty. However, there is no other ancient example of such a plural of majesty being used in the form of a pronoun of anyone other than God.
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God uses angels ALL the time. The earth is filled with angels - helping God rescue people from car crashes, fires, assaults, hurricanes, etc. etc. God uses Angels to help Him accomplish things on earth. To deny that God used the angels to help Him in the Old Testament, is very foolish indeed. Aside from your OPINION Der Alter, there is no reason not to believe that God included the angels in his plans to make the earth. Yes, He made us in his image. But, we don't know what the angels look like. He made them first. The Bible doesn't say yay, or ney, but it's possible that the angels were also created in God's image.
Aside from Genesis 1:26 in which the next verse becomes singular, the other examples you presented do no such thing. There is no way of proving that God DIDN'T use the angels when confusing the languages at the tower of Babel, and so on and so forth.
As for Genesis 3:22, I've mentioned this before: God said, "Behold, the man [Adam] has become as one of US, to know good and evil." If you say that God was NOT talking to the angels, then He would indeed be saying in this verse that Adam had become a god, and we know this isn't true. So, He had to be talking to the angels. And, since He likely was talking to the angels, it's logical to believe that in the other verses, He was talking to angels too.
You can hum and hah all ya want Der Alter, your methods of proving that Us meant two is pretty absurd. You say you believe in One God but such as statement as this: "There are three Persons in the Godhead who can talk to one another and makes plans together while remaining One God" - this has got to be the weirdest thing I have ever heard of. You teach three gods! And don't tell me to "Go and learn what the Trinity is and then come back". I know what the Trinity is - it's a crazy way to depict our God! God says over and over and over that He is "one God" and that "there is NONE BESIDE ME". That's proof enough that there is no Trinity. God is One - He is the Holy Spirit. And two thousand years ago, He came to earth as a man and gave His life as a ransom for many. That is what the Bible teaches.
-------------------------------------------------------------
2. The Use of the Plural Pronoun.
In the Creation, Fall, and Babel accounts (Genesis 1, 3 and 11), we see an interesting use of the plural pronoun as God is speaking.
Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness..." (Genesis 1:26).
Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of US, knowing good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22).
And the Lord said, "Behold, they are one people and they all have the same language. And this is what they begin to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.
"Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one anothers speech." (Genesis 11:6-7).
How are we to understand these uses of "US" and "OUR"? It has been argued that perhaps God was merely speaking with the angels. However, in each case, the context indicates that it is GOD who accomplished the planned action, even when the plan is described in the plural. For example, after the stated intention to create man, we read...
And GOD created man in His own image, in the image of God He created Him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27).
It does not say that man was created in the image of God and the angels. Neither do we ever read that the angels had any part in that creative work. Man is said to have been created by God and in the image of God.
It has been argued that this is also an example of the Hebrew plural of majesty. However, there is no other ancient example of such a plural of majesty being used in the form of a pronoun of anyone other than God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God uses angels ALL the time. The earth is filled with angels - helping God rescue people from car crashes, fires, assaults, hurricanes, etc. etc. God uses Angels to help Him accomplish things on earth. To deny that God used the angels to help Him in the Old Testament, is very foolish indeed. Aside from your OPINION Der Alter, there is no reason not to believe that God included the angels in his plans to make the earth. Yes, He made us in his image. But, we don't know what the angels look like. He made them first. The Bible doesn't say yay, or ney, but it's possible that the angels were also created in God's image.
Aside from Genesis 1:26 in which the next verse becomes singular, the other examples you presented do no such thing. There is no way of proving that God DIDN'T use the angels when confusing the languages at the tower of Babel, and so on and so forth.
As for Genesis 3:22, I've mentioned this before: God said, "Behold, the man [Adam] has become as one of US, to know good and evil." If you say that God was NOT talking to the angels, then He would indeed be saying in this verse that Adam had become a god, and we know this isn't true. So, He had to be talking to the angels. And, since He likely was talking to the angels, it's logical to believe that in the other verses, He was talking to angels too.
You can hum and hah all ya want Der Alter, your methods of proving that Us meant two is pretty absurd. You say you believe in One God but such as statement as this: "There are three Persons in the Godhead who can talk to one another and makes plans together while remaining One God" - this has got to be the weirdest thing I have ever heard of. You teach three gods! And don't tell me to "Go and learn what the Trinity is and then come back". I know what the Trinity is - it's a crazy way to depict our God! God says over and over and over that He is "one God" and that "there is NONE BESIDE ME". That's proof enough that there is no Trinity. God is One - He is the Holy Spirit. And two thousand years ago, He came to earth as a man and gave His life as a ransom for many. That is what the Bible teaches.
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JESSEDANCE:
I believe with all my heart that our Lord Jesus is indeed our precious God, who humbled Himself and came to earth as a man, so that He could take our place on the cross and rescue us from an eternity in hell!
In the Old Testament, the coming of Jesus Christ is prophesied over and over. In Prophesy, He is often described in present tense modes - I can see how this would confuse some into thinking that Jesus is a separate Being from God. However, come the New Testament, it becomes clear that Jesus Christ was truly God in the flesh. (Matthew 1:23, 1 Timothy 3:16, Colossians 1:15, John 1:14, John 8:58, Revelation 1:18, etc. etc.) The Bible states very clearly that Jesus is "Emmanuel: God With Us", that the Word who was with and WAS God, became flesh and dwelt among us, that "God was manifest in the flesh", and Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am". These are just a few examples.
In 1 John - John makes it clear that blasphemy is denying the Diety of Jesus Christ. Diety means Divine - it means "God". You can say that you DON'T deny the deity of Christ, but if you don't, then you admit that He is God - but you say that He is not God, therefore denying His deity, which is blasphemy. If you, on the other hand, say that Jesus IS Diety but not God, then you are saying that you believe in TWO GODS. However, the Bible makes it clear that there is only ONE GOD.
I'm sorry, dear friend. But you are in grave error. Denying that Jesus is God is no light issue. You need to study the Scriptures again. There are far too many verses saying that Jesus IS God, to just ignore and toss aside.
I believe with all my heart that our Lord Jesus is indeed our precious God, who humbled Himself and came to earth as a man, so that He could take our place on the cross and rescue us from an eternity in hell!
In the Old Testament, the coming of Jesus Christ is prophesied over and over. In Prophesy, He is often described in present tense modes - I can see how this would confuse some into thinking that Jesus is a separate Being from God. However, come the New Testament, it becomes clear that Jesus Christ was truly God in the flesh. (Matthew 1:23, 1 Timothy 3:16, Colossians 1:15, John 1:14, John 8:58, Revelation 1:18, etc. etc.) The Bible states very clearly that Jesus is "Emmanuel: God With Us", that the Word who was with and WAS God, became flesh and dwelt among us, that "God was manifest in the flesh", and Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am". These are just a few examples.
In 1 John - John makes it clear that blasphemy is denying the Diety of Jesus Christ. Diety means Divine - it means "God". You can say that you DON'T deny the deity of Christ, but if you don't, then you admit that He is God - but you say that He is not God, therefore denying His deity, which is blasphemy. If you, on the other hand, say that Jesus IS Diety but not God, then you are saying that you believe in TWO GODS. However, the Bible makes it clear that there is only ONE GOD.
I'm sorry, dear friend. But you are in grave error. Denying that Jesus is God is no light issue. You need to study the Scriptures again. There are far too many verses saying that Jesus IS God, to just ignore and toss aside.
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Furthermore,
To say that Jesus is only the "second Adam" is to say that God messed up and had to try again. God did not mess up with Adam. Adam messed up. What kind of a God are you serving who can't get things right on the first attempt? God came to earth as man to teach us to be Christ-like and to pay the penalty of our sins on Mount Calvary.
To say that Jesus is only the "second Adam" is to say that God messed up and had to try again. God did not mess up with Adam. Adam messed up. What kind of a God are you serving who can't get things right on the first attempt? God came to earth as man to teach us to be Christ-like and to pay the penalty of our sins on Mount Calvary.
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JESSEDANCE:
Do we have one Saviour or two Saviours? The Bible makes it clear that we have ONE SAVIOUR.
Check out the following Scripture passage from the book of Titus:
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward men appeared. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:3-7)
In this passage, God is called our *Saviour* and Jesus is also called our *Saviour*. Now, if Jesus is not God, then we must determine by this verse that we have TWO SAVIOURS. And yet, this would contradict the rest of Scripture. Check out the following verse:
"Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me." (Hosea 13:4)
We only have one Saviour - Jesus Christ - God in the flesh!
Do we have one Saviour or two Saviours? The Bible makes it clear that we have ONE SAVIOUR.
Check out the following Scripture passage from the book of Titus:
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward men appeared. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:3-7)
In this passage, God is called our *Saviour* and Jesus is also called our *Saviour*. Now, if Jesus is not God, then we must determine by this verse that we have TWO SAVIOURS. And yet, this would contradict the rest of Scripture. Check out the following verse:
"Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me." (Hosea 13:4)
We only have one Saviour - Jesus Christ - God in the flesh!
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Bekah: You said"our precious God, who humbled Himself and came to earth as a man". but "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? "
Num 23:19 (KJV). So to interpret those scriptures, which dont say Jesus is God, to mean that Jesus is God, contradicts this scripture.
you say "The Bible states very clearly that Jesus is "Emmanuel: God With Us"," I assume you mean isaiah 9:6 which doesnt say that it says his name shall be called immanuel. big difference
i have my fathers name too that dont make me my father. You say"In 1 John - John makes it clear that blasphemy is denying the Diety of Jesus " but it doesnt say that thats your interpretation.
It's really quite simple there is only one god . god the father 1 cor 8:6 and Jesus is his son.if Jesus is his son that precludes him from being the God he is a son of.
you really have the same problem trinitarians have , namely that you have 2 gods that you say is one god. they have 3 gods they say is one god.
Your doctrine that jesus is god is not based on any clear cut scripture that says Jesus is god but rather on enigmatic verses, that have vield meaninigs. My doctrine that Jesus is the son of god is based on clear cut scritpure that says Jesus is the son of god. all of your doctrine that jesus is god is not based on even one scritpure that says jesus is god. all you have are interpretations of scritpures whereby you come up with the contradictory belief that jesus is god and jesus is the son of god. thats as much a contradiction as anything trinitarians have.
.OddRow {background-color: #EEEEFF}.essh {font-weight: bold; color: red}
Num 23:19 (KJV). So to interpret those scriptures, which dont say Jesus is God, to mean that Jesus is God, contradicts this scripture.
you say "The Bible states very clearly that Jesus is "Emmanuel: God With Us"," I assume you mean isaiah 9:6 which doesnt say that it says his name shall be called immanuel. big difference
i have my fathers name too that dont make me my father. You say"In 1 John - John makes it clear that blasphemy is denying the Diety of Jesus " but it doesnt say that thats your interpretation.
It's really quite simple there is only one god . god the father 1 cor 8:6 and Jesus is his son.if Jesus is his son that precludes him from being the God he is a son of.
you really have the same problem trinitarians have , namely that you have 2 gods that you say is one god. they have 3 gods they say is one god.
Your doctrine that jesus is god is not based on any clear cut scripture that says Jesus is god but rather on enigmatic verses, that have vield meaninigs. My doctrine that Jesus is the son of god is based on clear cut scritpure that says Jesus is the son of god. all of your doctrine that jesus is god is not based on even one scritpure that says jesus is god. all you have are interpretations of scritpures whereby you come up with the contradictory belief that jesus is god and jesus is the son of god. thats as much a contradiction as anything trinitarians have.
.OddRow {background-color: #EEEEFF}.essh {font-weight: bold; color: red}
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god did not mess up adam did. god gave adam a free will just as he gave Jesus a free will. satan tempted Jesus because he knew jesus had a free will and could choose to disobey god, (which makes no sense if Jesus is god) otherwise if jesus couldnt have sinned why did satan tempt him?
jesus offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins , he is the sin offering, god accepted the sacrifcice Jesus made as payment for our sins. so god is the only one who saves us. the death of jesus on the cross does not save us but gods acceptance of that sacrifice saves us. god saves us from hell. jesus , as he said , can do nothing of his ownself , even save us, his father that is in him does the works.
jesus offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins , he is the sin offering, god accepted the sacrifcice Jesus made as payment for our sins. so god is the only one who saves us. the death of jesus on the cross does not save us but gods acceptance of that sacrifice saves us. god saves us from hell. jesus , as he said , can do nothing of his ownself , even save us, his father that is in him does the works.
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Jessedance - I am very busy at the moment, but as soon as I have time, I will respond to all of your questions. I will just give you one verse now and then I'll expand with more Scripture in a little while, and I'll also respond to the comments in your last post. Read Matthew chap. 1 - this is the chapter that says that Jesus is Emmanuel: God with us.
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Bekah Ferguson said:
[size=+1]I thought you believed in the Bible? Now you are giving me "it's possible,""might be", "could be," "maybe", etc. Aside from your carbon copy of all "Oneness" opinions, can you show one verse which states that the angels helped God in the creation or were created in the image of God? If not I am not too interested in any false "might be" and "maybe"?[/size]
Bekah Ferguson said:
[size=+1]You got it all wrong. I do not have to prove anything about angels. If you believe, just because your doctrine fails utterly without it, that angels assisted in creation and confounding the languages at Babel, then you have to produce scriptural evidence to that effect. Anybody can explain anything away by saying, "Well it COULD have been that way."*Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning GOD created. . ." It does NOT say "God and the angels" In the NT Jesus created, it does NOT say "Jesus and the angels. . ."[/size]
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Bekah Ferguson said:
[size=+1]What happened to the "plural of majesty?" So now all of a sudden you drop that and it is supposed to be the angels. Can you not make up your mind what you believe?
I have already explained about God saying "Adam has become as one of US" It was limited by the clause, "to know good and evil." Therefore God was clearly NOT saying that Adam had become exactly as God but only in the sense of knowing good and evil. That is exactly what scripture says and this view does not require explanations which are not supported by scripture.
Again I am not too interested in "maybe," "might be", "likely," etc. If you are going to disagree with my views then I expect to see clear scripture NOT speculations what MIGHT be.[/size]
Bekah Fergusion said:
[size=+1]I'm not the one "humming and hawing" trying to prove what I believe by a bunch of "might be," "maybe," "could be", "likely," etc. No you do NOT know what the Trinity is. Evidently all you know is what you have been spoon fed by "Oneness" teachers who, themselves, cannot accurately or truthfully state what Trinitarians believe. You made a maliciously false and deliberately untruthful statement. I do NOT believe in three Gods.
One of the things that most, maybe even all, "Oneness" believers cannot understand, God is NOT a man and is not restricted by our so-called rules of physics, logic, etc.
Here are two verses which show the Triune nature of the ONE (1) God. In Gen 19:24 one on earth named יהוה sends down fire out of heaven from one named יהוה. In Isa 48:17 one named יהוה says He was sent by יהוה and His spirit. One YHWH sending, one spirit also sending, and one YHWH being sent. How many do you count? I count three.[/size]
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD [יהוה] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD [יהוה] out of heaven;
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD [יהוה], and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the LORD [יהוה], thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD [יהוה] thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way [that] thou shouldest go.
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Hi Everyone.
Just to let you all know . . . I won't be posting any responses in this forum for the next week or so. Especially not to you, Der Alter. I've had enough of you. You are so rude all the time and it's hard not to be rude back. But, who cares.
Anyways, my Uncle was killed this afternoon when a deer went through his windshield. So, that's why I won't be around for a week or so. If any of you can pray - please pray for the family - my Uncle leaves behind a wife and four children. They desparately need prayer.
Just to let you all know . . . I won't be posting any responses in this forum for the next week or so. Especially not to you, Der Alter. I've had enough of you. You are so rude all the time and it's hard not to be rude back. But, who cares.
Anyways, my Uncle was killed this afternoon when a deer went through his windshield. So, that's why I won't be around for a week or so. If any of you can pray - please pray for the family - my Uncle leaves behind a wife and four children. They desparately need prayer.
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jessedance said:
[size=+1]As with most anti-Trinitarians you quote your one or two proof texts and ignore everything else. The verse you quoted was written about 1200 years BC, present tense, "God is not a man that he should lie." Where does the Bible say God would NOT become a man?
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was toward God, and the Word was God and the Word (that was God) became flesh and dwelt among us.
As I have posted earlier in this thread, which was totally ignored, the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, knew that God was the Word and the Word was God, John was not saying anything new.[/size]
Jewish Encyclopedia-In the Targum:
In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.
Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=399&letter=M
[size=+1]As I have posted there are several NT verses which apply[/size]  [size=+1]יהוה[/size]/YHWH to Jesus. Ignoring them will not make them go away. Thomas, a devout Jew, called Jesus "My Lord and My God," it was NOT an exclamation. It is the wrong form in Greek. And Jesus did NOT correct him. Also one verse, Jhn 1:18, according to the oldest most authoritative manuscripts speaks of "the only begotten God""In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.
Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=399&letter=M
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
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