Horrible

cherokeehippie said:

I think it is a sin for what that baptist church did! It only reinforces to nonbelieving Jews that christians hate Jews--it makes them think of the pogroms and iniquisitions when the catholic church forced Jewish people to convert by trying to force them to eat pork or be tortured on the rack. I think that Baptist church needs Messianic Jewish believers to come in and educate them on the history of antisemitism--it is very insensitive on that church's part of what they did.

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Yes, good point Cherokeehippie, it was a very insensitive thing to do, and stands a good chance of sending any Jewish person straight out of the door never to ask agin whether Christ might indeed love them.

I also agree we all need to be aware of the history of anti-semitism, especially when trying to reach them for Christ.

Blessings, Susana

"Noone comes to the Father but through Me." Jesus said that anyone who does not accept him is not saved. Non-messianic Jews are going to hell. That's why we need to present the gospel to them.

SOLDOUT4HIM said:

"Noone comes to the Father but through Me." Jesus said that anyone who does not accept him is not saved. Non-messianic Jews are going to hell. That's why we need to present the gospel to them.

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I don't think anyone here disputes that scripture, and we are all to do our part in spreading the good news and praying for the lost.

However, being abusive, patronising, using fear and hate as the motivation to get people into the Kingdom, is not the way of our Lord Jesus.

BTW Neither you nor I know the eternal destination of another person.

God bless, Susana

Sounds like urban legend to me. I would want to know if it actually is true and then I would want to follow up with the people responsible.

JVD said:

Sounds like urban legend to me. I would want to know if it actually is true and then I would want to follow up with the people responsible.

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Not an urban legend. Really happened to her on both counts.

I'll say it once again, I think that it is important for everyone to accept christ, even if they are Jewish, but I just think that it is wrong to be so mean about it. IfI were a jew, I would have been too offended by it to want to hear the rest of their message.

Think if you saw a person speaking in tounges in that scene, how would it make you feel? Even if you think that they are full of poop, I don't know about you, but I would be angry an dwould not care to hear anything else the person had to say.

d0c markus said:

Oh Jeez. There is a truth that needs to be proclaimed. When you minister to someone do you tell them in effect, "now I know you dont know Jesus, and I dont want to pass judgement on you, but who am I to tell you that your going to hell without him. I simply do not know that" It's almost a catch 22 for you. You are not passing judgement on that person, you are speaking a divine truth.

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When I minister to people, I usually don't really talk about hell... I'm not into the whole "scare ya into salvation" thing... I tell them that I have the best friend in the world, and that they can too... that Christ died to take away their sins, and all they have to do is accept that... but I don't think I've ever had to talk about hell to anyone... And whether or not they believe in Christ, no matter what, its not going to be beneficial to say "You're going to hell, and I know that because my Bible ~holds up KJV leather edition for effect~ says so!" I think we'd get alot more done as far as evangelism goes if we would show them the compassion of Christ instead of constantly reminding them where we say they're gonna go if they don't follow our way...
You're right. I don't pass judgement on them... and when I tell them about Christ, I am speaking divine truth into their lives... thats what Christ is... He is divine truth... Its not that I don't believe that Christ is the only way to the Father, but I also believe that eternal fate is just something thats not for me to say... I was talking to the pastoral administrator at a local Catholic parish about her belief in Hell. Something she said that really rang clear in my mind was this:

"We believe there is a Heaven and a Hell. We know there are people in Heaven. Its not for us to say whether there are people (yes, Satan is, but not necessarily people) in hell. There may be, and thats where the wicked are to go, but it just isn't for us to say beyond the shadow of a doubt that anyone is in hell."

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Judgement isn't my department. I don't really want to go out and get people to convert to christianity for fear of where they'll go. Thats the wrong reason to come to Christ. I want them to see how amazing the God I serve is. I want them to realize that a relationship with Jesus is the most fulfilling thing they can ever have. I want people to know that their lives are complete in Christ, not just that they don't have to spend eternity sitting on a hot, sweaty brimstone chair.

Just my two cents, of course... do with them what you please...
Blessings...
~AD

adamdavid said:

When I minister to people, I usually don't really talk about hell... I'm not into the whole "scare ya into salvation" thing... I tell them that I have the best friend in the world, and that they can too... that Christ died to take away their sins, and all they have to do is accept that... but I don't think I've ever had to talk about hell to anyone... And whether or not they believe in Christ, no matter what, its not going to be beneficial to say "You're going to hell, and I know that because my Bible ~holds up KJV leather edition for effect~ says so!" I think we'd get alot more done as far as evangelism goes if we would show them the compassion of Christ instead of constantly reminding them where we say they're gonna go if they don't follow our way...
You're right. I don't pass judgement on them... and when I tell them about Christ, I am speaking divine truth into their lives... thats what Christ is... He is divine truth... Its not that I don't believe that Christ is the only way to the Father, but I also believe that eternal fate is just something thats not for me to say... I was talking to the pastoral administrator at a local Catholic parish about her belief in Hell. Something she said that really rang clear in my mind was this: Judgement isn't my department. I don't really want to go out and get people to convert to christianity for fear of where they'll go. Thats the wrong reason to come to Christ. I want them to see how amazing the God I serve is. I want them to realize that a relationship with Jesus is the most fulfilling thing they can ever have. I want people to know that their lives are complete in Christ, not just that they don't have to spend eternity sitting on a hot, sweaty brimstone chair.

Just my two cents, of course... do with them what you please...
Blessings...
~AD

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Odd Considering a Biblical study of Hell would show that Jesus talked about it more than anyone. I agree that you should never use scare tactics to make them convert however, hell is real, it is perfectly valid to be afraid of hell, as it is a scary place. I also think that if you think telling an unsaved person that they are going to hell is consigning them to it, then you dont understand what judging is. If it makes you feel better when i tell the whole Gospel, how Jesus died for my sins, and what he is saving me from I make mention that Hell was never designed for us in the first place, it was for satan.

ps.

"You're going to hell, and I know that because my Bible ~holds up KJV leather edition for effect~ says so!"

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ICK, change the Bible to an ESV

hey um, I must be really stupid, but I haven't actually caught what you's are talking about, can someone explain the horrible thing in the first post that I have missed

cheers

Nads said:

hey um, I must be really stupid, but I haven't actually caught what you's are talking about, can someone explain the horrible thing in the first post that I have missed

cheers

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Basically, some Christian Churches do an evangelistic outreach in the form of a haunted house. The people they go through it and they see the gospel presented to them visually. Basically this Jewish teacher found that there was a Jew in "hell", no doubt for rejecting the Son of Man.

The ensuing discussion is about whether or not it is wrong. That in effect to tell someone that without Christ they are going to hell is judging them. What some in this thread dont seem to understand is that by refusing to mention hell in their evangelism they are leaving out a key part. The very reason we need salvation in the first place. The result of sin is eternal death, for it we are consigned to hell. Because of that we need the redemption that is in the blood of Christ. But according to some, that must be left out, otherwise you'll scare them away, and you will judge them. Which is an incorrect assumption, our job is to tell the whole truth of the Gospel, not only parts of it.

Hope that clears it up.

d0c markus said:

Basically, some Christian Churches do an evangelistic outreach in the form of a haunted house. The people they go through it and they see the gospel presented to them visually. Basically this Jewish teacher found that there was a Jew in "hell", no doubt for rejecting the Son of Man.

The ensuing discussion is about whether or not it is wrong. That in effect to tell someone that without Christ they are going to hell is judging them. What some in this thread dont seem to understand is that by refusing to mention hell in their evangelism they are leaving out a key part. The very reason we need salvation in the first place. The result of sin is eternal death, for it we are consigned to hell. Because of that we need the redemption that is in the blood of Christ. But according to some, that must be left out, otherwise you'll scare them away, and you will judge them. Which is an incorrect assumption, our job is to tell the whole truth of the Gospel, not only parts of it.

Hope that clears it up.

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I think that you missed the point.

The point of the thread was that my teacher was both offended by the Jew in the Judgement House and the fact that one was lumped in with a murderer and a rapist during a testimony vingette.

The issue isn't wether or not using hell in evangelism is bad. I think that it is a good thing, but to single out a group of people like that, no. I think that it is offensive. I think that if you're going to preach hell, preach it. Tell the truth. Say that if you don't accept christ you're going to hell. But to name of certain people or groups of people that are going to hell, that's when you're playing judge.

I believe that when you're witnessing to people you need to tell them the truth, but you don't have to offend everything they believe in, even if it is wrong. When you're witnessing one on one it is easy to say here's the way. And if they ask questions, or if they belong to a group that you thing id soing to hell, you can say things like, " I believe Jehova's Witnesses are going to hell, here's why."

However in an open setting like that. In a place for no interaction or a place where you can't give clarification of your point. It isn't cool. I liken this once again to speaking in tounges. There are a lot of churches out there that think that operating in spiritual gifts is a demonic practice and that people who do it are going to hell. (assuming they are right now). So lets say that one of us tounge talkers go through there and they have a room (that's supposed to be in hell) of people who are speaking in tounges and laying hands on people and all of that. I don't know about you, but that would offend me. (assuming they are right) Let's say that the rest of the house had me conviced of my sins and all of that. Well since that is my way of life, they have just offended me and any chance that I had of turnign from my ways is out the window (assuming they are right). Its one thing to do that with things that are morally wrong, but when you get into religous stuff like that. Its kind of bad.

I know that the gospel is supposed to be offensive, but in both the real and fake scenario the person who sees the gospel is not being exposed to scripture that will back up what the people are claiming. Its one thing to offend someone to their face adn to then dig through the bible to show them that thye are wrong. It is a different issue to offend someone to their face and make claims, but not back it up by scripture. Would any of you sit through that? I think not. If a person was just making blanket statements like so and so is going to hell fir this and that and if those statements applied to some of your practices, would you not want them to back it up with scripture. That is why we have that rule on this forum...

Has anyone here listened to "Hell's best kept secret" by Ray Comfort? It's also got a reading by Kirk Cameron which I prefer because he's funnier in my mind. It's on http://www.wayofthemaster.com if you'd like to listen to it.

It talks about how Jesus evangelized to people. Think about the young rich man. He came running up to Jesus and asked how he could have eternal life. He said he kept the commandments, he appeared to want eternal life, but Jesus' response was not "well then pray this simple prayer with me, and you too shall have eternal life". It was harder than that, and exposed to the young man that he loved money more than God, that that was sinful, and until he could rid himself of that sin he could never have eternal life.

When Jesus ran across the Samaritan woman at the well, he brought her attention FIRST to her sins and how she needed forgiveness for them, not "I can be your bestest friend in the world, and don't you want that?"

Listen to "Hell's best kept secret". Our church went out door to door witnessing. We started out the way the person who taught told us to. The partner I went with and I were hardly listened to let alone received. <Probably didn't help that I'm 24 and he was 17. We looked like those little magazine sales kids.> When I flipped to using the 10 commandments and pointing out THEIR sins and why they were desperately in need of a Saviour, they at least listened to the message rather than shutting the door on us. <I'm in Utah, it's hard to get anyone to listen, they are mostly LDS and think they have the message.>

It's a good message to listen to. Go to the website and try it.

Shalia

fiveinjuly said:

I think that you missed the point.

The point of the thread was that my teacher was both offended by the Jew in the Judgement House and the fact that one was lumped in with a murderer and a rapist during a testimony vingette.

The issue isn't wether or not using hell in evangelism is bad. I think that it is a good thing, but to single out a group of people like that, no. I think that it is offensive. I think that if you're going to preach hell, preach it. Tell the truth. Say that if you don't accept christ you're going to hell. But to name of certain people or groups of people that are going to hell, that's when you're playing judge.

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Its the same thing as with an individual. Do Jewish people reject Christ, yes, thereby anyone who maintains those beliefs are on thier way to the abyss. Same as muslims, same as the white man, black man rapist, murderer child molestor. Can they be saved - oh yea- by the wonderful grace of God. What bothers me that she wasnt offended by the rapist or murderer in jail. I suppose the rapist and the murderer deserve hell, eh they arent pious jews.

You say preach hell, but dont name anyone who is going to hell. Well i reccomend you not say "anyone who rejects Christ is going to hell." What a massive group of people you have just condemned and singled out.

Ummm you should go back and read the op....

The murderer and rapist were on a video giving testemonies about how they came to christ and a Jew was on the same video.

IN A DIFFERENT CHURCH there was a Judgement house that just featured a Jew in hell.


And no you're wrong, I have no problem with nameing groups that will go to hell. What I have a problem with is doing it in a public forum where a person belonging to those groups can see that and be offended by it. By doing it in a public place like that, the people who you are preaching to are not getting the scriptural basis for what you're saying. All they're hearing (or seeing in this case) is a group of people condeming another group of people for no reason.

fiveinjuly said:

Ummm you should go back and read the op....

The murderer and rapist were on a video giving testemonies about how they came to christ and a Jew was on the same video.

IN A DIFFERENT CHURCH there was a Judgement house that just featured a Jew in hell.


And no you're wrong, I have no problem with nameing groups that will go to hell. What I have a problem with is doing it in a public forum where a person belonging to those groups can see that and be offended by it. By doing it in a public place like that, the people who you are preaching to are not getting the scriptural basis for what you're saying. All they're hearing (or seeing in this case) is a group of people condeming another group of people for no reason.

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Oh Alright

So in this case, the one with your teacher, there was only a jew in this hell? What did she think of the one jews testimony on tape prior to seeing the one in hell?

Yea, I think it was offensive but a foolish blind person usually offends one who can see because they're not of the light but of darkness and they can't comprehend that light.

Yours in the Lord,

Andy

d0c markus said:

Odd Considering a Biblical study of Hell would show that Jesus talked about it more than anyone. I agree that you should never use scare tactics to make them convert however, hell is real, it is perfectly valid to be afraid of hell, as it is a scary place. I also think that if you think telling an unsaved person that they are going to hell is consigning them to it, then you dont understand what judging is. If it makes you feel better when i tell the whole Gospel, how Jesus died for my sins, and what he is saving me from I make mention that Hell was never designed for us in the first place, it was for satan.

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Perhaps its a matter of perspective... Hell isn't that important to me because I know I'm not gonna go there... And when I tell others about salvation, I find it much more important that they understand what they can be saved into rather than what they can be saved out of... Thats the cool part... going to heaven and spending eternity with the most amazing God you can ever dream of is, IMO, a much bigger selling point than merely avoiding hell...

I realize Jesus talked alot about Hell, but He was (and is...) God, and thats His place... and its not out of place for me to talk about hell, either... thats not what I have a problem with... its saying that "X, Y, and the church of Z" are going to go to hell that I have a problem with, not because I don't know what qualifies someone to go there, but because I don't want to put myself on the throne of judgement... its just none of my business... I'm into helping people gain a meaningful relationship, not a ticket out a fiery pit (conviently, that ticket comes with the relationship, but thats not my direct goal... Its easy to get someone to confess a belief in Christ and get em "Saved"... its not so easy to get them to understand how awesome of a friend Christ is...)

d0c markus said:

ps.


ICK, change the Bible to an ESV

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Blessings...
~AD

adamdavid said:

Perhaps its a matter of perspective... Hell isn't that important to me because I know I'm not gonna go there... And when I tell others about salvation, I find it much more important that they understand what they can be saved into rather than what they can be saved out of... Thats the cool part... going to heaven and spending eternity with the most amazing God you can ever dream of is, IMO, a much bigger selling point than merely avoiding hell...

I realize Jesus talked alot about Hell, but He was (and is...) God, and thats His place... and its not out of place for me to talk about hell, either... thats not what I have a problem with... its saying that "X, Y, and the church of Z" are going to go to hell that I have a problem with, not because I don't know what qualifies someone to go there, but because I don't want to put myself on the throne of judgement... its just none of my business... I'm into helping people gain a meaningful relationship, not a ticket out a fiery pit (conviently, that ticket comes with the relationship, but thats not my direct goal... Its easy to get someone to confess a belief in Christ and get em "Saved"... its not so easy to get them to understand how awesome of a friend Christ is...)





Blessings...
~AD

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Alright.

Shalia said:

Does the Bible say somewhere that Jews are exempt from having to believe in Jesus to be saved? I'm honestly curious, I thought that everyone had to believe in Jesus to be saved, that's what Jesus told Nicodemus. Is there a loophole?

If there's no loophole, why would it be horrible to present the truth? Just because she didn't want to see it?

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The Lord the God of Israel has made a covenant with the Jews that he will never abandon them as a people. They are still the Lord's chosen Inheritance, we are grafted into Israel the root, until the full day of the Gentiles has passed.

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters,17 so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel18 until the full number19 of the Gentiles has come in. 11:26 And so20 all Israel will be saved, as it is written:"The Deliverer will come out of Zion;he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 11:27 And this is my covenant with them,21when I take away their sins."22