Tawhano said:
Do I have a Bible? What kind of remark is that? So this is what you resort too when you have no intelligent rebuttal to offer is it?
Uh, wow.
You show your ignorance and arrogance with that remark.
But how do you
really feel?
As I have shown it is not I who is translating scriptures to fit what I believe but you. I guess I cant blame you for coming to that conclusion seeing how it was written in your bible. My advice to you is to get a Parallel Bible or even download e-Sword.
Okay, so if this is one way of telling me you use the King James version, you're free to say that. I won't be offended by that. And thank you for the Strong's. But theres still the question of what other rest falls on the Seventh Day. (Yes, I'll get to the Strongs translation, and show you waht it says about words like works in verse 10: just be patient.) So even though NIV has a tendency to add a certain amount of "help," and maybe this is what your catholic friend was pointing to in asking me who my objective authority is, that still leaves the question unanswered. But I like the Greek and Hebrew lexicons better, as do you. So we'll get to that in a minute, after I give the background for using the argument you did, although the word work in Hebrew 4:10 is ERGON.
I'm gathering, and if I'm wrong you could simply state your perspective and avoid the harsh descriptors, you view this only as an exhortation to rest in God for our salvation, the rest that comes through belief. But how does that mean any part of the ten commandments is ceremonial? How does that mean you don't have to keep the Sabbath day? Are you free to take God's name in vain now, or to make idols, or to bear false witness, or to covet, or to commit adultery? Because my Bible, be it NIV or King James or the Revised version or any other version I have laying around here, along with my Strong's, says that if we love Him we will obey His commands. What commands are those? And why does James 2: 8 still teach us a need to obey the law? Since you feel I'm nothing short of ignorant, let me ask you a few questions that you may teach me. Why did Jesus make a distinction between fulfilling and abolishing the law in Matthew 5:17? And why Jesus still say in Matthew 7:12 to do unto others as we would have done unto us, for this sums up the
law...and the
prophets? And why all the exhortations to the churches in the book of Revelation to overcome in order to receive the crown of life(First three chapters)? What about the frequent admonitions to repent, or perish (Luke 13:3. Is this only repenting of unbelief? then what would you make of Revelation 2:5?)? Or James 2:14-26, particularly v. 18:
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:18
It culminates in this verse:
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
The reason I mention all this is to make the point that the necessity for obedience implies an obedience to something. Would that be moral law? So I guess belief alone, that is, freedom from the law, does not give freedom from obedience to the law.
Next, what is your basis for considering the fourth commandment ceremonial? Why is that one so special? First we must establish that. Let's give you a chance to defend your own position.
Next, in reference to the scriptures we've been discussing lest you assume I am dodging that, is there another seventh-day rest that I should know about? Please answer this question for me, by the way-it isn't retorical. Remember, we're talking about whether or not we should be working on the sabbath. So while I understand the discomfort of having a publisher such as NIV add the word sabbath, is this not a good rendering? Or is there another seventh day rest from which we are to cease from ERGON? (NIV does this because not everyone would know this is what the Bible is referring to-forgive me for being insultingly unassuming.) But I'm scrutinizing the verses to see if this is a correct rendering. Some publishers are a bit more faithful in their exegesis and hermeneutics than others. NIV isn't perfect in some spots, but it's usually good.
Anyway, we have this in verse 10:
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For He that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own work, as god did from his.
Now for the Strongs:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:
Sabbaton = Sabbath Day
1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
b. a single sabbath, sabbath day
1. seven days, a week
Katapausis = rest
1. a putting to rest
a. calming of the winds
2. a resting place
a. metaph. the heavenly blessedness in which God dwells, and of which he has promised to make persevering believers in Christ partakers after the toils and trials of life on earth are ended
Now which one do you suppose is used in Hebrews 4:9-10?
Granted, but it then says, as shown below, that he who enters that rest as you described, has ceased from His own ERGON. Which is translated:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Hebrews 4:9-10 (KJV)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works [ERGON], as God [did] from his.
As I have shown it is not I who is translating scriptures to fit what I believe but you. I guess I cant blame you for coming to that conclusion seeing how it was written in your bible. My advice to you is to get a Parallel Bible or even download e-Sword.
Unless there is another seventh day rest from which we cease from ERGON, I don't know how you the argument stands. But I invite you to enlighten me.
You can drop the pretence and stop calling me friend. It is obvious your intent is to place a burden on me that you cannot bear yourself. No at all a friendly thing to do.
Well, I am being a friend to you, but it was never implied that you are one to me. Actually I study the Bible endeavoring to obey it as comepletely as I can. I never used hot words like arrogant, etc. I never insulted you as you did me.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in the obeying of the truth through the spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently. I Peter 1:22