Eastern Orthodox relations with Messianic Jews

Talmid HaYarok · Feb 27, 2003

How do Orthodox groups officially view Messianic Jews?

My rather shallow experience in Israel indicates to me that Ethiopian and Armenian Orthodox relations are rather favorable and close with Messianic Jews. Especially the Ethiopians.

Coptic and Russian Orthodox relations with Jews in general seem to be rather strained. It seems to have more to do with historical animosity and ethnic strife than any doctrines to my knowledge though.

If anybody has some hard info I'd be curious to know!

brewmama · Feb 28, 2003

I don't have hard info, but I know my priest is not too impressed, although there is no animosity. I've never heard the subject discussed in the journals I read. Judging from the posts here though, they seem to be pretty different from traditional Christian practices. You could check with some of the Messianic Jews on this board.

Talmid HaYarok · Mar 24, 2003

While talking about Ethiopian Messianics got me to thinking about this thread. In the Ethiopian Tawahedo church the Falashamura (Ethiopian Messianic Jews) are both fully Jewish and accepted by the Ethiopian Falasha community and Ethiopian Orthodox and fully accepted in the Tawahedo church.

In Israel this is even easier because both Hebrew and Geez (the liturgical language of the Ethiopian church used in services) are both semitic languages and very similar. Its very easy to understand much of a service in Geez if you understand Hebrew. Something which most Amharic speaking Ethiopians can't do.

I'd be curious to hear more responses,

thanks.

Moros · Jan 6, 2004

I don't recognize the Messianic Jews.

Oblio · Jan 6, 2004

Talmid HaYarok said:
While talking about Ethiopian Messianics got me to thinking about this thread. In the Ethiopian Tawahedo church the Falashamura (Ethiopian Messianic Jews) are both fully Jewish and accepted by the Ethiopian Falasha community and Ethiopian Orthodox and fully accepted in the Tawahedo church.

What specifically does accepted by mean ? Are they in Eucharistic Communion with each other ? Do Messianics believe in the Eucharist as Orthodox/Catholic Christians do ? This is the Traditional means by which Orthodox accept one another, by sharing in the Body and Blood of our Lord.

Philip · Jan 6, 2004

Oblio said:
What specifically does accepted by mean ? Are they in Eucharistic Communion with each other ? Do Messianics believe in the Eucharist as Orthodox/Catholic Christians do ? This is the Traditional means by which Orthodox accept one another, by sharing in the Body and Blood of our Lord.

It is my understanding that they are fully (Oriental) Orthodox. They impose upon themselves some additional disciplines that they do not expect others to follow.

Oblio · Jan 6, 2004

Interesting ...

Talmid HaYarok · Aug 7, 2004

I'd be interested in hearing more responses

jkotinek · Aug 8, 2004

+Christ is in our midst!+

Talmid HaYarok said:
How do Orthodox groups officially view Messianic Jews?...If anybody has some hard info I'd be curious to know!

I don't know that I've ever heard any *official* position. Like brewmama, the advice that I've received from my priest is not favorable.

I have spent quite a bit of time talking with a messianic Jew on Texags.com, and I can only offer my synthesis of his position in relationship to my understanding of Orthodoxy (please feel free to correct me where I am wrong):

* (According to Bracy) Messianics believe that Christ's true teaching was perverted by His Apostles
---> This criteria, first of all, that the Church wasn;t established through the Aposltes and that their Gospels, Epistles, History, and Revelation are invalid is in oppostion to the very infrastructure of the Orthodox Church.

*Messianics belive that true followers of Christ are bound to follow Halacha
--> Even a cursory reading of St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians indicates that, while continued observance of Jewish custom/law in the Church at Jerusalem was permissable, it was by no means something about which to scandalize converts elsewhere. On a side note, Galatians is a wonderful guide on how to approach the different "flavors" of tradition among the various Orthodox Christian jurisdictions.

*Messianics give persons of the Jewish faith a pass because faithful Jews believe in the same Messiah that we do, just not who it is/was.
--> Because Christ's Incarnation is central to our understanding of salvation, it is hard to reconcile the rejection of the Incarnated Messiah and the transformed reality that He effects with our beliefs.

In these conversations, most of the arguments against Christianity that I have heard seem to be arguments against Western and modern perceptions of Christianity, and so the argument from history doesn't hold water. Another problem seems to be with a preference for the canon of scripture decided at the Council of Jamnia, which was a reaction against Christianity.

On the other hand, because Eastern Christianity has preserved the Liturgy so well over the last two millenia, we *do* share a good deal when it comes to the form and content of worship. A wonderful study on this is Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity With the Synagogue, the Temple, and the Early Church by Benjamin Williams and Harold Anstall.

God bless!

The Prokeimenon! · Aug 8, 2004

Dear Talmid HaYorik,

It can be hard to get an "official" Orthodox position on anything that comes after the 9th century

. We have official positions on the Incarnation, Trinity, on Jesus Christ being perfect God and perfect Man, on His two Natures and Wills, on the Holy Images, etc. But since Messianic Judaism didn't begin until the 19th century, we don't have any official position.

On a completely unrelated note: Are "Jews for Jesus" considered Messianic Jews? I've gotten the impression from some newspaper articles that they aren't, but I've never personally met a Jew for Jesus or a Messianic Jew. Just curious.

Moses

Father Rick · Aug 8, 2004

jkotinek said:
+Christ is in our midst!+

I don't know that I've ever heard any *official* position. Like brewmama, the advice that I've received from my priest is not favorable.

I have spent quite a bit of time talking with a messianic Jew on Texags.com, and I can only offer my synthesis of his position in relationship to my understanding of Orthodoxy (please feel free to correct me where I am wrong):

* (According to Bracy) Messianics believe that Christ's true teaching was perverted by His Apostles
---> This criteria, first of all, that the Church wasn;t established through the Aposltes and that their Gospels, Epistles, History, and Revelation are invalid is in oppostion to the very infrastructure of the Orthodox Church.

*Messianics belive that true followers of Christ are bound to follow Halacha
--> Even a cursory reading of St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians indicates that, while continued observance of Jewish custom/law in the Church at Jerusalem was permissable, it was by no means something about which to scandalize converts elsewhere. On a side note, Galatians is a wonderful guide on how to approach the different "flavors" of tradition among the various Orthodox Christian jurisdictions.

*Messianics give persons of the Jewish faith a pass because faithful Jews believe in the same Messiah that we do, just not who it is/was.
--> Because Christ's Incarnation is central to our understanding of salvation, it is hard to reconcile the rejection of the Incarnated Messiah and the transformed reality that He effects with our beliefs.

In these conversations, most of the arguments against Christianity that I have heard seem to be arguments against Western and modern perceptions of Christianity, and so the argument from history doesn't hold water. Another problem seems to be with a preference for the canon of scripture decided at the Council of Jamnia, which was a reaction against Christianity.

On the other hand, because Eastern Christianity has preserved the Liturgy so well over the last two millenia, we *do* share a good deal when it comes to the form and content of worship. A wonderful study on this is Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity With the Synagogue, the Temple, and the Early Church by Benjamin Williams and Harold Anstall.

God bless!

I have numerous friends who are messianics. There are almost as many differences among messianics as there are protestant denominations, so what your friend may believe does not mean all messianics believe this way-- especially regarding the issue of the Apostles perverting the Gospel. Most messianics I know do not hold to that.

Just wanted to shed some light ...

Pax Christi!

jkotinek · Aug 8, 2004

Father Rick said:
I have numerous friends who are messianics. There are almost as many differences among messianics as there are protestant denominations, so what your friend may believe does not mean all messianics believe this way-- especially regarding the issue of the Apostles perverting the Gospel. Most messianics I know do not hold to that.

Just wanted to shed some light ...

Pax Christi!

I have an uncle who is also a messianic Jew, and I don't believe that he holds to any of what this other fellow does...but I've never really talked to my uncle about it before.

At any rate thank you for the correction.

Talmid HaYarok · Oct 27, 2004

I've not been around very often these days.

Jews for Jesus is definately not a Messianic group in my book. Some would say they are, but not most who call themselves Messianic Jews. They're more of a protestant group aimed towards evangelizing Jews.

I don't know if there is a place for interdenominational discussion anymore, but I'd be curious to hear more. I personally am most acquainted with Ethiopian Orthodoxy and Greek Orthodoxy and would especially like to hear more positions of those from other Orthodox groups.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Oct 30, 2004

Talmid HaYarok said:
I've not been around very often these days.

Jews for Jesus is definately not a Messianic group in my book. Some would say they are, but not most who call themselves Messianic Jews. They're more of a protestant group aimed towards evangelizing Jews.

I don't know if there is a place for interdenominational discussion anymore, but I'd be curious to hear more. I personally am most acquainted with Ethiopian Orthodoxy and Greek Orthodoxy and would especially like to hear more positions of those from other Orthodox groups.

Hi, Talmid! :wave:

I was AWOL a few days and didn't see your post until now. I just wanted to point out that all canonical Orthodox Churches believe and practice the same doctrines. However, Ethiopian Orthodox (or some say Oriental Orthodox) are considered Coptic Orthodox, which is not technically in communion with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy (as far as I know). I suspect, however, that there would be very little difference in doctrines/theology.

Granted, I don't think there are any official doctrines or statements regarding how the EOC views Jewish people (in regards to having a special relationship with Him because of nationality, geography, or whatever...). However, I think there have been quotes in this thread from well respected Orthodox authors who accurately reflect the thoughts/opinions of most Orthodox theologians. I don't really have time to go back and read everything previously posted at the moment, though. It is important to note that racism/anti-semitism has never and will never be considered appropriate by the Church as a whole. The idea of racism existing in the Orthodox Church is actually pretty humorous, seeing that the Church as a whole is very ethnically diverse.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Oct 30, 2004

OOPS! I just realized that this thread was not the same one I was thinking of.

I'm actually not seeing any quotes. There was another thread very similar to this one that was started a few months ago, and in that one there are some good quotes. I'll try to look for that thread.

ufonium2 · Oct 30, 2004

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta said:
It is important to note that racism/anti-semitism has never and will never be considered appropriate by the Church as a whole.

I'd like to point out that Semitic is a language group and Judaism is a religion. Neither one is a race. The overwhelming majority of Semites on Earth today are Arab Muslims, and most Jews alive today are descended from Khazar converts and have no genetic connection to the Holy Land or the Semitic language group.

Disagreeing with Judaism does not equal racism, because Judaism isn't a race. Disagreeing with Judaism also does not equal anti-semitism, because most Jews are not Semites and most Semites are not Jews.

Sorry to get on a soapbox, but it bothers me that in our society it's OK to disagree with any and all religion except Judaism, and if you disagree with Judaism that somehow makes you a racist.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Oct 30, 2004

ufonium2 said:
I'd like to point out that Semitic is a language group and Judaism is a religion. Neither one is a race. The overwhelming majority of Semites on Earth today are Arab Muslims, and most Jews alive today are descended from Khazar converts and have no genetic connection to the Holy Land or the Semitic language group.

Disagreeing with Judaism does not equal racism, because Judaism isn't a race. Disagreeing with Judaism also does not equal anti-semitism, because most Jews are not Semites and most Semites are not Jews.

Sorry to get on a soapbox, but it bothers me that in our society it's OK to disagree with any and all religion except Judaism, and if you disagree with Judaism that somehow makes you a racist.

Thanks for pointing that out, Ufonium. I was only meaning to address the tendency of some to go too far to one extreme, thinking that Jews are especially abhorrent for this or that reason. Of course, on the other end of this spectrum are those who think Jews are especially blessed for whatever religious or nationalistic reason. You are definitely right that opposing or disagreeing with Judasim is NOT the same as racism.

Eastern Orthodox relations with Messianic Jews

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