Orthodox Christians and Messianic Jews

Nehemiah,

I know this is off-topic but wow... cool signature! I'd never seen that comic before.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Esran said:

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I'm sorry to have caused you any offense......What I'm protesting is the way we treat "heterodox" ....We tend to shun them.

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Esran, I was not offended. No worries. I'm merely pointing out that you are making sweeping judgments against a group of people, the same as you are asking us to reconsider. All I'm doing is asking you to think about that. There will always be a person or two who make rude comments. That does not mean that we Orthodox, on the whole, "shun" the nonOrthodox. On the contrary, you will find the opposite in TAW- as I said, with an exception or two. Most of us welcome with open arms those who wish to learn about our holy Faith, but there will always be one or two bad apples. And I wish that weren't so, but I can't control anyone's behavior except my own. Nor can you.

My husband's patron saint, Moses the Ethiopian, is known for the saying, "Concentrate on your own sins, then you will not see the sins of your brothers."

Good advice for all of us. Especially me.

LK

And hey, no one took me up for the Heineken!!

Anonykat said:

And hey, no one took me up for the Heineken!!

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Please don't take this as hostile or judgemental, but yesterday was Shabbat, and a bar and a beer would be the last place and drink I would be doing/having on Shabbat and I pretty much think that is the norm for most MJ's that I know (personally anyway). But thanks for the offer, but as you said also there are one or two and those one or two speak loudly enough for us to not feel that the welcome wagon would be waiting for us if you know what I mean.

We are happy to talk here with you though, some say they have been here and not been treated well and I apologize for all for that, but I/we seek to rectify that if given another chance.

Esran, I am happy for you that you have a personal relationship with anothr MJ your age and can see the good things we share, Paulr said if we have everything else in the world but not love we have nothing, but you have the sharing of the love of Yeshua/Jesus and to me that means everything!

?

Please don't take this as hostile or judgemental, but yesterday was Shabbat, and a bar and a beer would be the last place and drink I would be doing/having on Shabbat and I pretty much think that is the norm for most MJ's that I know (personally anyway).

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Interesting. I would often enjoy Carmel wine and the local beer (I can't recall the name right now) on Shabbat in Israel. You couldn't smoke or fix a cup of cappacino but there was no prohibition on drinking alcohol or shortage of Jews consuming it.

Not all Israelis are Torah observant, but what I think Zayit was saying is that many of us don't even get on the computer on Shabbat (a habit I am still having trouble with). And most of us like to spend it as family time and with our families. Of course, that means any other day of the week is fine. Maybe my husband will stop by later.

OH and NO drinking alcohol is not prohibited on Shabbat, as a matter of fact wine is a very important part of Shabbat.

Just so any reading aren't aware of this, not every place closes down for Shabbat in Israel. You must have been in a Muslim or Christian area. If you went somewhere and it was a bar that served drinks and it was not gratis, then according to Orthodox ( our ) beliefs you broke the Shabbat and so did the propriator.

Wine is a very important aspect of Shabbat, we use it to Bless the L-rd with and it doesn't have to be Alcoholic either. Kedeem ( Kosher) makes many wonderful non-alcoholic wines.

Just so any reading aren't aware of this, not every place closes down for Shabbat in Israel. You must have been in a Muslim or Christian area. If you went somewhere and it was a bar that served drinks and it was not gratis, then according to Orthodox ( our ) beliefs you broke the Shabbat and so did the propriator.

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It was definately not Muslim or Orthodox Christian, it was in a Hotel, they even had the Shabbat elevator. Definately Jewish, as all hotels must follow Kosher rules in the kitchen. Hint: do not eat Thai food in an Israeli Hotel , the rules ruin it. Most the beach bars were open during Shabbat too and the beaches are packed, mostly with natives. Tel Aviv resembles most western cities prior to the repeal of blue laws, IOW the stores are closed but all the entertainment and tourist stuff keeps on truckin.

You were in a hotel? Tel Aviv? That explains it for some reason I thought you were in Jerusalem, because I know the different quarters go by different closings.

Yes, Tel Aviv. I was also in Jerusalem though mostly in the Old City and even then I concentrated my visits in the Christian area as that was why I was there. I stayed away from the Jewish Ultra-Orthodox areas, I didn't want to get stoned or otherwise rebuked. My Jewish guide would rather drive through the Muslim areas instead of the Orthodox sections of town

I love that an olive branch has been offered here. Praise Yah for you. I only hope that we can all agree not to try to make each other wrong.

I have few problems with other denominations, and generally will avoid debating the matter with them, but as soon as I mention what I believe, I find that others try to make me wrong. It happens all the time. I can respect that you believe other than I do, I hope that others can respect the same. The truth is that if either of us truly believes the other is in sin in being wrong we ought to be praying for that individual for enlightenment and truth and correction in their wrongdoing, not beating them over the head for not agreeing with us. No?

Anway, thanks for olive branch. I accept.

Reading of the thread that was closed down, maybe this old thread of mine could be brought back to further improve relations?

I am a Messianic Jew through and through. Though in worship elements Messianics are closer to protestants, in theology it often seems more similar to Orthodox. Because of this, when I can not be a part of a Messianic congregation I often find myself much more comfortable and at peace with the Lord in an orthodox congregation. Would it be that more of them were comfortable with Messianic Jews! Especially among the Ethiopian Orthodox who's services are conducted in Geez (a semitic language similar to Hebrew), and it is not uncommon to find Ethiopian Messianics in the services as well.

Peace

Talmid HaYarok said:

Because of this, when I can not be a part of a Messianic congregation I often find myself much more comfortable and at peace with the Lord in an orthodox congregation. Would it be that more of them were comfortable with Messianic Jews!

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I really don't know where this idea came from that the Orthodox have a hit or something out for Messianics. I myself certainly don't, and I do not know even one person who does. There was a debate a while back, people on BOTH sides got nasty, and somehow it turned into this notion that we have a long standing thing about this. It just isn't true. There will always be people who act like posterior-heads, on BOTH sides. To me, all nonOrthodox fall into the same category - being outside the Holy Orthodox Church. Nothing more, nothing less, no hatred, no nothing.

And I do have a question, regarding saying that we are close in theology. That seems to go against everything I've ever been told (by Messianics) about your religion, so I'm a little . For one thing, EVERYTHING in Orthodoxy revolves around our Trinitarian understanding of God. It is the basis for our understanding of Christology, salvation, and our very ontological existence. While considering them to be outside of the fullness of the faith, we have no problems calling Catholics and Protestants who do believe in the Trinity our fellow Christians. Yet, I was told by a Messianic that there is much freedom in how one wants to believe in Messianic-ism, including this issue - some do, some don't, and it doesn't matter either way. Is that so? For an Orthodox Christian, there is no "maybe" about this issue. It is everything.

TIA,

LK

I'm afraid I've been a while from Christian Forums for a good long while and missed whatever happened here more recently. Let me assure you that my experiences with eastern Orthodox members are strictly personal.

If you read what I've written you'll notice I've had a lot of really good experiences in Orthodox congregations. I do feel a lot of the differences are in the symbols we choose, and the words we use to express the same meaning. Our theologies in many cases have become two different languages saying the same thing. We've got problems with translation.

Let me assure you than those who truly follow Yeshua are Trinitarian if they accept the teaching of the Brit Hadashah. It is Rabbinic Jews who are not trinitarian and not Messianic Jews.

To be bluntly honest, I blame a lot of the hostility I have seen on the cultures certain Orthodox churches grew up in. The Orthodox groups that generally I've thought of as being hostile to Messianics, are the ones who's father countries are also known for being anti-semitic. So is it really the teaching of their church? or of their cultures?

I really do wish that both branches of believers could come closer together. Messianic Judaism is the heart of the Bible and the life of the Messiah Yeshua, but has a tendency to wander between the liturgies of Church and Synagogue. Orthodoxy in my opinion is not as close to the heart of the Bible's teaching or the Messiah's (this is not to paint you as heretics, just further from some of the depth of understanding) but do not wander from what they have. To use Esran's example I wish that all Messianic congregations venerated the scriptures as well as most Orthodox congregations, but I also wish that Orthodox congregations understood the Hebrew scriptures and the Jewishness of the Bible better. If the two could be brought closer together, I believe it would be a wonderful thing. This is my opinion, and I know that many of you Messianic and Orthodox will be offended by it... but there it is. My opinion.

I read the most recent thread by Esran just now.

Where is this debate that took place? I'm curious to read about it.

I'm very saddened to learn of this increasing division and hostility between the two, what I little I can see of it appears to be fueled my misconceptions and misunderstanding a lot.

Too bad both groups can't just sit together in a nice Ethiopian Orthodox service... maybe one of Falasha Jews. Before he was taken away by the Romans, Yeshua prayed for unity among his followers. Who even then were falling asleep on the job. Too bad we can't do any better job of it today.

I appreciate the effort you are making to bring us all together for fellowship. I just want to say that it is an honorable thing and worthy of note. You will be known as one of the Lord's peacemakers. May the Lord continue to bless you and keep you in His Ways, and may we all get together at the Lord's supper and fellowship face to face.

Visionary