Oneness of God

Der Alte · Sep 7, 2003

Bekah Ferguson said:
DER ALTER = First of all, I didn't cut and paste that post, I wrote it entirely myself! I also don't claim that Trinitarians literally believe in Three Gods, but I do point out how the Trinity Doctrine causes such a confusion and does come across that way in many instances.

I wasn't merely trying to prove that Jesus is God - you already believe that. I was pointing out how God and Jesus have MANY identical attributes which makes it doubtful that they are truly separate Persons. And where is the Holy Ghost in all of this? Why isn't he ever described as having any of these attributes? Is he of lesser value then the other two?

[size=+1]Pointing out that Jesus and God have MANY of the same attributes is also a waste of time, I already believe that Jesus IS God so you don’t have to prove that to me. The question is can you prove that the Trinity is unscriptural, from the Bible by using ONLY scriptural language? For example, “sinless vessel,” “two natures,” “dual nature” are NOT found in scripture.

”And where is the Holy Ghost in all of this? Why isn't he ever described as having any of these attributes? Is he of lesser value then the other two?’ A very silly question and comment. Jesus is NOT mentioned every time God is mentioned and God is NOT mentioned every time Jesus is mentioned. I will post a separate post which shows the attributes of the Holy Spirit.[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
Furthermore, you say that the terms, "the Right Hand of God" are NOT SYMBOLIC and yet you go on to show how many references there are to the Right Hand and use these references as proof that Jesus and God are separate Persons. The problem is, you believe that there will only be ONE Entity in Heaven. You say that the Right Hand is not symbolic and yet you don't even believe it is literal. These arguments are a circle game!

[size=+1]First, you are misquoting what I said, about “The Right Hand of God,” I will post it again since you obviously did NOT understand it the first time. Second, I suggest you go study very carefully from Trinitarian, NOT “Oneness,” literature exactly what is meant by “Trinity” There is ONE (1) God, NOT three Gods. Within that one God there are distinct selves and wills, which I have already established from scripture. There is the will and the self of the Father, the will and self of the Son, and the will and the self of the Holy Spirit. Although there are three distinct selves and wills there is still only one God. Here is what I said about “The Right Hand of God.” Please show me where I said “NOT SYMBOLIC.” And I posted scripture to support my view which you have not addressed.

If the term "Right Hand of God" is so “heavily symbolic” [as you said], there must be verses somewhere which state this. Can you cite any verse that clearly states that the term “Right hand of God” is symbolic? And before you even try to say “Right hand” means power, there is NOT one single verse which states this and there are verses in the OT which speak of the “right hand” and the “power” of God, separately in the same verse.

Here is one verse which speaks of God’s hand and power separately.[/size]

Ezra 8:22 For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him.

[size=+1]Here are three verses in which Jesus says that He will be sitting "on the right hand of power", but He does NOT say that the right hand IS power. And I do not know of one single verse where Jesus ever explains that "God's right hand=power" Also Heb 1:3 says that God’s word, NOT His right hand, is power.[/size]

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mark 14:62 Luke 22:69)

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Bekah Ferguson said:
You asked me to show a verse that shows the Right Hand to mean "Power and guidance", etc. Well, for starters, here are two verses from the Old Testament:

Psalm 139:10 says, Even there *Your Hand* will guide me, Your *Right Hand* will hold me fast. These words were spoken by King David hundreds of years before Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem! See also Psalm 37:23-24 which says, If the Lord delights in a man's way, He makes his steps firm; though he stumble, he will not fall, for the Lord upholds him with *His Hand*.

[size=+1]Neither of those verses state that God's right hand means “power”, I said nothing about guidance. “Your Hand* will guide me, Your *Right Hand* will hold me fast.” and “upholds him with *His Hand*” does NOT say right hand is symbolic of power. These verses say "your hand" NOT power, will guide, "your right hand", NOT power, will hold fast, and "His hand", NOT power, upholds. I have posted verses which shows “right hand’ and “power" to be separate and you have not shown one verse which clearly states “right hand” is symbolic of anything.[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
So, in the New Testament, when Jesus is described as being at the "Right Hand of God", again, it is not literal (as in Jesus and God physically standing side by side as two separate beings) but rather, it is in reference to the strength and power of God - and in particular, to the Divinity of Christ! Don't forget Matthew 28:18 where Jesus said, All power is given unto me in heaven and earth.

[size=+1]Here you are just making the same old assertions, you have NOT proved anything from the scripture. What you need is a verse that says something like “the right hand of God which is the power of God.” And I notice you ignored my question about Stephen. Just before Stephen was stoned to death he said,[/size]

Ac 7:56 And said, Behold, I SEE the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

[size=+1]As I said some verses which speak of the son being at the right hand of God might possibly be symbolic, but Stephen in his dying moments, did he see what he said he saw or did he see some kind of symbols?[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
The Right Hand of God = All Power

[size=+1]You have not produced one single verse which even remotely suggests that, “The Right Hand of God = All Power.” Just repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true.[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
You make referrence to God and the Lamb in the book of Revelation, but my question is, where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? Why is he so often so strangely absent?

[size=+1]Read your Bible. All you are doing is repeating what your “Oneness” leaders have said without any thought. How many times does Jesus say, “let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches,,” in Revelation 2 and 3, and why is God so strangely absent from these verses? Why are there so many verses which mention God alone? And why are there so many verses which mention Jesus alone?[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
The Bible says that God is an invisible Spirit (Col. 1:15) and the Holy Ghost is obviously an invisible Spirit. To say that the HS and God the Father are two separate Persons, makes them, in all actuality, two separate Spirits!

[size=+1]Go learn what the Trinity is then come back and discuss it, I am tired of hearing nonsense like this. There is ONE God. According to Jesus, within that one God there are three distinct wills and selves. The will and SELF of the Father, the will and SELF of the Son, and the will and SELF of the Holy Spirit.[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
As I've mentioned before, how can an invisible Spirit "sit on a throne"?!

[size=+1]What did Jesus say Matt 26:64, Mark 14:62, and Luke 22:69? What did Stephen SEE, just before he died, Acts 7:56?![/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
Check this out:

John 10:11 describes Jesus as the good SHEPHERD.

1 Peter 1:19 describes Jesus as the sacrificial LAMB.

How could Jesus be both the Shepherd AND the Lamb?! This is what the Bible says! Should we make the rapid assumption that *Jesus the Shepherd* is a separate Person from *Jesus the Lamb*? Of course not! That would be silly. So, why do Trinitarians insist that *God the Father* and *Jesus the Son (God in the flesh)* are two separate Persons?

[size=+1]Irrelevant. Are there any verses that describe the good shepherd separately from Jesus? Are there any verses that describe the sacrificial lamb separately from Jesus? Does Jesus ever speak to either the good shepherd or the sacrificial lamb? Does either the good shepherd or sacrificial lamb ever speak to Jesus? Do either the good shepherd or sacrificial lamb ever act independently of Jesus? You are just throwing any old thing you can think of at the board.[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
Romans 15:6 says that God is the Father,

Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus the Son would be the everlasting Father.

[size=+1]Isaiah 9:6, in Hebrew says, “Abi-ad,” which is more correctly translated “the father of eternity,” NOT everlasting father. Every other name or word in the OT which begins with “Abi” is translated “Father of.”[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
How could God be both the Father and the Son?! The Bible says that Jesus is the Shepherd and the Lamb; we have no qualms with that, but, the Bible also makes it clear that Jesus is the Father (God, the Shepherd) but Jesus is also the Son (sinless man, the Lamb). Do you see the connection here? Just as *Jesus the Shepherd* is NOT a separate Person from *Jesus the Lamb* - *God the Father* is NOT a separate Person from *Jesus the Son*.

”the Bible also makes it clear that Jesus is the Father (God, the Shepherd)” [size=+1]Absolutely false. There is NOT one verse in scripture which identifies Jesus as the Father. I have already disproved your “good shepherd’ and “sacrificial lamb” examples. Go read what the Trinity actually is, you evidently do not know or understand what Trinitarians mean when they use the word “person” to refer to The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. You, as with all other “Oneness” believers, have a strawman, a boogey man, that you continually fight against which has nothing to do with the Trinity.[/size]

Der Alte · Sep 7, 2003

GJG said:
Sheesh dude, Lighten up already!

Go easy on the "the word trinity is not in the Bible"! I have no problem with your statement dude. I know not every word you and I use is "in the Bible", just like "oneness" isn't.

[size=+1]Good it only took about 1/2 dozen posts to get that concession from you. But some of the terms you have used are not only not in the Bible but contradict scripture as well. "God uses a sinless vessel." is one such term. When God was manifest in the flesh, God was not using a vessel. The Word that was in the beginning, toward God, and was God, became, flesh without changing anything that He was before. "Using a sinless vessel' sounds too much like pagan legends, gods coming down from the heavens, inhabiting human beings.[/size]

GJG said:
Chill out dude, I'm doing my best to answer you. If my best isn't acceptable to you, then what more can I do?

[size=+1]Okay I'll wait for awhile and see if more of my previous posts get answered.[/size]

GJG said:
I'm kinda beginning to see what Becks was meaning Very rude indeed!

[size=+1]How is it rude to point out that most of my last two posts posts have not been addressed? A little note at the bottom of your posts saying, "I will answer the other questions in a later post.," would be nice. But when you post once and then twice and things still don't get addressed I start to wonder. And many of the points go together like a → b → c.[/size]

GJG said:
Are you a moderator or what?

[size=+1]Not me, you don't see moderator under my name do you?[/size]

GJG said:
How does one communicate with someone that seems to be uninterested in listening?

Help me somebody, I'm going nuts.?

[size=+1]If you are speaking about me, I am interested in listening. The problem is, at least from your point of view, I have had these discussions before within my own family. I have heard all the arguments, I know all the "Oneness" proof-text scriptures, and I have responded to them more than once before.

I have all my previous discussions on my hard drive. If someone brings up the argument, for example, "the Right hand of God is symbolic of God's power." I have already heard all the arguments, I know all the scriptures. All I have to do is look in a certain folder on my hard drive. So I'm sort of like a boy scout, I am prepared, I am not entering this discussion uninformed. And maybe that is what is frustrating you, I have a scriptural answer for everything you bring up.[/size]

Der Alte · Sep 7, 2003

[size=+1]Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit does all these individual, personal, activities, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, sends and is sent, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc.[/size]

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witnesswith our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:

Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit,

Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit

Mt 10:20 the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip,

Ac 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him,

Ac 11:12 And the Spirit bade (told, instructed) me go with them

Ac 16:7 but the Spirit suffered them not.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: the Spirit itself maketh intercession

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly

Heb 10:29 and hath done despite (insult) unto the Spirit of grace?

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1 Jon 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,

1 Jon 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Re 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, shall not be forgiven.

Mr 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Lu 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,

Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost

Lu 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance

Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Ac 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

Ac 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost,

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say,

Bekah Ferguson · Sep 7, 2003

GJG - my suggestion would be to just move on. Der Alter says that neither of us answer his questions, meanwhile, a few posts back, I went into detail about the Right Hand of God. DId he not even read it?! I was reading this the other day in the Bible and thought of this forum:

"Avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is a heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" (Titus 3:9-11)

Der Alter bashes everything we say, he doesn't comprehend what we say, it's getting to the point where I think it would be useless to continue versing with him!

Bekah Ferguson · Sep 7, 2003

Der Alter = I am tired of your superior attitude. I discuss Oneness and Trinity on other websites and at least there, things are being accomplished. Here, nothing is being accomplished. You refuse to understand our Oneness standpoint. You point out over and over again that myself and GJG do not understand what the Trinity actually is and yet is very clear that you do not understand what the Oneness Doctrine is either.

Again, your rebuttal on my "Right Hand of God" post was once again a circle game. You mentioned Stephen again, well, I will mention this again - if Jesus is literally standing beside God, then how could they possibly be one Entity?!

jessedance · Sep 7, 2003

I agree with you whole heartedly that there is only one God, [Edited by a Moderator] however, you create the same problem trinitarians have by saying Jesus is God, for that makes 2 gods. Jesus and God the father.
If you say that Jesus is the father, a UPC position, then you have an irrational position that is equal with anything trinitarians have.
Jesus is not God, Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is God's representative, an exact representation of God, not God. Remember, "God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world unto himself" not "God was christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Saying Jesus is God creates an equal number of problems with scriptures that trinitarians have. Jesus praying to God, what he prayed to himself?
jesus didnt know the hour of his return only his father did. How do you make sense of that if Jesus is god?

Bekah Ferguson · Sep 7, 2003

Jesse Dance - what are you trying to say? That Jesus and God are two separate Beings?

Bekah Ferguson · Sep 7, 2003

I can show you countless Scripture that bluntly declare that Jesus IS God!

Bekah Ferguson · Sep 7, 2003

JESSE DANCE - (Der Alter, you've read this before - I am reposting this for JesseDance)

THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS THAT JESUS IS THE *SON* OF GOD!
What Does This Mean?!

There is a definite distinction between God the Father and Jesus the Son

In the New Testament, Jesus never said, "I am God the Father", nor will you ever find the phrase, "God the Son".

What Jesus did say was: "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" , "He who hath seen me hath seen the Father", and "I and the Father are one" (John 10 & 14).

Jesus Christ is referred to as the Son of God approx. 40 times in the New Testament but is only referred to specifically as God about half a dozen times or so. Why is this? Is it because Jesus Christ is indeed a separate Person or a separate Being from God the Father?

Just because more verses say Jesus is the Son of God compared to those verses which say Jesus is the God, does that mean that we should only focus on the multitude set of verses rather than the smaller handful of verses? Should we view the verses that say Jesus is THE GOD as invalid since the greater precentage of verses say that Jesus is the SON OF GOD?

A friend of mine, (a professing Christian) told me that since the New Testament only makes a couple of references to homosexuality being sin; it's pretty much a non-issue. He said that if God really wanted us to believe that He considers homosexuality to be an abomination, then He would have devoted way more verses to the topic.

So tell me, if only one verse in the Bible said that murder is wrong, would that mean that murder is pretty much a non-issue? "If God wanted us to get the point that murder is wrong, He would have devoted way more verses to the topic". I hope my point is clear here!If the Bible only said that Jesus is God one time, then we still need to reverence that declaration as infallible Truth!

At this point, you may be thinking that I am being hypocritical. "You say it's wrong to ignore the smaller passages of Scripture and only pay attention to the big passages, but here, you seem to be doing the opposite: favouring the smaller passages over the larger passages."

What I'm trying to explain is that we need to take all Scripture together as a whole! The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus IS God. Is this a contradiction? Does this mean that Jesus is a separate Person or Being from God?

When Jesus and the disciples taught, they used words and terms that the people would understand and relate to. As author David K. Bernard says: "The title of Son refers to God's incarnation. The man Christ was literally conceived by the Spirit of God and was therefore the son of God (Matthew 1:18-20; Luke 1:35)."

That is why Jesus was referred to as the "Son of God" and even referred to himself as the Son of God. This was not because he was a separate Person from God but because he [Jesus] had been physically born of a woman and conceived by the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit). And, since he [his body] was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not by a man, he was literally the "Son of God" though he was in fact, God incarnate.

In knowing and understanding that Jesus the Son was God in the flesh, be careful not to overlook the incredible and eternally important example found in this Divine Sonship:

Jesus Christ THE SON set us the perfect example of what our relationship with God OUR HEAVENLY FATHER should be. He taught us what it means to completely surrender our wills to the Will of God (the Garden of Gethsamene and sweat drops of blood - "Nevertheless, not my will but Thine be done." Luke 22:42). He taught us by His example of Sonship, what it means to "take up our cross daily" (Mark 8:34). By His Sonship, Jesus Christ taught us how to pray, "Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed by Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done" (Matthew 6:9-13).

Without the relationship of Jesus the Son with God the Father, we would have no clue what it means to be Christ-like! Is this relationship between Son and Father that of two separate personages or beings? Or rather, is this beautiful relationship that of the man Jesus Christ with His Heavenly Father, the Spirit dwelling within him?

In Matthew 24:35-36 Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away . . . But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

Here Jesus is saying that He DOES NOT know the day or hour of His return! How can this be if Jesus is truly God in the flesh? This verse must prove that Jesus the Son is a separate Person from God the Father because if they weren't separate, then why doesn't Jesus know the day of His return to earth?

Take a look at Hebrews 2:9 which says, We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Phillipians 2:5-8 says, Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbed himself, and became obedient unto death.

And Colossians 2:9 further says, For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Now check out Luke 2:52 which says, And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Does this verse *prove* that Jesus was not God, or rather, is this clear proof that Jesus was a man? Obviously, the latter coincides with the rest of the New Testament. Jesus was a man.

As a man, Jesus concurred with the confinements of humanity. He humbled himself. (Phillipians chapter 2) So, at this point in His ministry, he could honestly say that He did not know the day or hour of his return. This doesn't prove that Jesus was not God, it merely proves that Jesus was a real man.

God knows all things. (Psalm 147:6) So, if Jesus DOES NOT know all things, then He can't be God. Hmmmm . . . well, what if there was a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus DOES know all things. Would that prove that He is God?

Check this out:

He [Jesus] saith unto him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?" Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. (John 21:17)

What have we discovered? Jesus did not become all-knowing until AFTER he died and was resurrected from the dead. So, if one verse says that Jesus is NOT all-knowing, and another says that He IS all-knowing, then is this a contradiction in the Scriptures? Hardly, what it is, is a clear evidence that Jesus Christ (God in the flesh - 1 Timothy 3:16) was truly a man. God had truly humbled Himself to the point of being real flesh and blood humanity. He humbled Himself in order to save us by taking our place on the cross. What an awesome God we serve!

"For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), "God was manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16), and "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)

Bekah Ferguson · Sep 7, 2003

Read Revelation chapter One. It proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus IS God.

Gentle Panther · Sep 7, 2003

jessedance said:
I agree with you whole heartedly that there is only one God, [edited by a Moderator]; however, you create the same problem trinitarians have by saying Jesus is God, for that makes 2 gods. Jesus and God the father.
If you say that Jesus is the father, a UPC position, then you have an irrational position that is equal with anything trinitarians have.
Jesus is not God, Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is God's representative, an exact representation of God, not God. Remember, "God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world unto himself" not "God was christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Saying Jesus is God creates an equal number of problems with scriptures that trinitarians have. Jesus praying to God, what he prayed to himself?
jesus didnt know the hour of his return only his father did. How do you make sense of that if Jesus is god?

I think you make some good points and asked some valid questions........which I have not seen answered yet! :sigh:

GJG · Sep 7, 2003

To Der Alter,

Originally Posted By: GJG

Der Alter,

Why did you accuse me of pasting material from an ant-trini website?

I simply typed the material from some study literature.

BTW, I have only attended Bible School for approx 2 months in total, so I am still learning as I go along.

I am certainly learning a few new things from your posts also

I will try to understand your wording as accurate as I am able, but I must admit, I am not very highly educated, so please bear with me.

Bekah Ferguson,

I appreciate your encouraging words very much

[size=+1]I di not accuse you here is what I said. "All you did was apparently copy and paste a list of scriptures and arguments from some anti-Trinity website." I said "apparently" that means "appears" and that is what it looks like, i.e. appears to me. And the reason I said that is because I have seen that list and those comments on websites before. It doesn't matter if you copied them out of a book or pasted from online, they are still NOT the result of your own study of the Bible or any writings by Trinitarians. Whoever made up that list and the comments evidently does not know what Trinitarians believe, and it appears that you don't either.

What you are supposed to be doing is showing me how the doctrine of the Trinity contradicts scripture. And the ONLY way you can do that is read something written by a Trinitarian, about the Trinity. You cannot prove anything about the Trinity by quoting stuff from some "Oneness" book or website. The rules of this forum have the Nicaean Creed and the Apostle's creed, if you want to see what Trinitarians actually believe, start there. Here is a link to the rules.

http://www.christianforums.com/rules.html[/size]__________________
לא קאר אזר ידה

Nullus Frigidus Auxilium Gratia

:priest:

The Love Team Motto

John 15:13 meizona tauthV agaphn oudeiV ecei ina tiV thn yuchn autou qh uper twn filwn autou

GJG · Sep 7, 2003

If that wasn't you Der Alter replying to my post, under Old Shepherds name, then why did Old Shepherd reply on your behalf!

GJG · Sep 7, 2003

To all,

Let's clear up one thing here, "WHAT" is God?

The Bible clearly states that the following is the simple description of God:

God is everywhere in creation=omnipresent.
God is all-knowing=omniscient.
God is all-powerful=omnipotent.
God is The invisible Spirit=SPIRIT.

All this can be sumed up with the following words:

God is the only self-existent, eternal one. The was (past), the is (present), the coming one (future)!.....SHEMA!

The "tetragrammaton" or YHWH has been suggested to contain these three primary tenses from the Hebrew word "to be".

If the above description of God is not heeded to, then what other description of God is there?

I feel it is vital to atleast clear up this point first, to then have a better understanding of where we are all coming from.

Der Alte · Sep 7, 2003

Bekah Ferguson said:
GJG - my suggestion would be to just move on. Der Alter says that neither of us answer his questions, meanwhile, a few posts back, I went into detail about the Right Hand of God. DId he not even read it?! I was reading this the other day in the Bible and thought of this forum:

[size=+1]This is as a matter of provable fact totally untrue. Scroll up to my post I separated your responses into four separate quotes, including most of the scriptures you quoted, and I addressed each one in turn. I showed how NONE of the scripture, you posted, stated or implied that "the Right Hand of God = Power", and my response on "Right hand of God" takes up almost half of my post.[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
Der Alter bashes everything we say, he doesn't comprehend what we say, it's getting to the point where I think it would be useless to continue versing with him!

[size=+1]If by posting thoroughly scriptural answers to what you post, yes I do that. If you mean interpreting all scripture so that it does not contradict other scripture, yes I do that.

For example, I clearly showed from scripture that God's name forever and unto all generations is יהוה/YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh, Jesus is NOT the name of the Father.[/size]

GJG · Sep 7, 2003

Originally Posted By: jessedance

I agree with you whole heartedly that there is only one God, [edited by a Moderator]; however, you create the same problem trinitarians have by saying Jesus is God, for that makes 2 gods. Jesus and God the father.
If you say that Jesus is the father, a UPC position, then you have an irrational position that is equal with anything trinitarians have.
Jesus is not God, Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is God's representative, an exact representation of God, not God. Remember, "God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world unto himself" not "God was christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Saying Jesus is God creates an equal number of problems with scriptures that trinitarians have. Jesus praying to God, what he prayed to himself?
jesus didnt know the hour of his return only his father did. How do you make sense of that if Jesus is god?

Excellent questions,

From the ONE SPIRIT perspective, God always continues to remain Himself! It is Jesus Himself who states that this very same ONE substance is within His body, yet still retaining the previously mentioned Divine attributes. Never is there two Gods whatsoever. Irrational as it may seem to others, the fact remains: this reasoning lines up with all other scripture:

"I and my Father are one"
"He who has seen me has seen the Father"
"The Father is in me"...etc

These are but a few which highlight the fact that the Divinity within Jesus, is God. It is Jesus who says that He is the Father, not UPC or KFC or ABC,

Jesus said it, therefore it is fact.

The dual-nature of Jesus is obvious, as He is also perfect-man, just as surely as He is very God.

The "flesh" of Jesus is nothing more than a sinless body that recieved a name; Jesus. However, the Divine conception ensured that this body had within it, a unique character that can only be termed as, "dual-nature"; Divinity clothed in humanity!

Our bodies are not who we truly are, just as the computer you are operating is useless without an OS (operating system). Our "true self" is our very "soul", as flesh cannot enter into heaven, our soul can.

The body of Christ (His flesh) is not God the Father, however, the Spirit within Him is without a doubt, the One Spirit that is God the Father. It just so happens that this body was given a name: Jesus. When this body spoke, He spoke at different times from two differing natures: Divinity OR humanity.

When He asked for a drink because of thirst, He spoke as a man. When He said "He was before Abraham", He spoke as God.

His humanity: slept, thirsted, hungered, bled...died.
His Divinity: Performed the miracles; changed water to wine, raised the dead, created food...etc

He prayed to the omnipresent Spirit of God because His humanity had a need that only the Divinty could meet.

His humanity is indeed unaware of "all knowledge", however, God the Father knows all.

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of man. The "sonship" only came into existence upon the Divine conception; God remains One God as there is no sin to seperate this newly concieved person from the Spirit within all creation. Jesus is born to show that which is invisible; The image of the invisible God.

Many things can be said about this Jesus-Christ, but first and foremost, He was to be Emmanuel: "God with us"! Amen.

Der Alte · Sep 7, 2003

Bekah Ferguson said:
Der Alter = I am tired of your superior attitude. I discuss Oneness and Trinity on other websites and at least there, things are being accomplished. Here, nothing is being accomplished. You refuse to understand our Oneness standpoint. You point out over and over again that myself and GJG do not understand what the Trinity actually is and yet is very clear that you do not understand what the Oneness Doctrine is either.

[size=+1]How do I have a “superior attitude?” I do nothing more than what you are doing. I post what I believe to be the truth and I support what I post from scripture or other evidence. And if I believe any response is incorrect I show how I believe it is.

How do I refuse to understand your “Oneness” standpoint? Unlike you and GJG I have not posted incorrect statements about “Oneness” beliefs or practices. You, on the other hand, have posted replies that imply, for example, that Trinitarians believe in three Gods. If you think I have made similar statements please show me in which post?[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
Again, your rebuttal on my "Right Hand of God" post was once again a circle game. You mentioned Stephen again, well, I will mention this again - if Jesus is literally standing beside God, then how could they possibly be one Entity?!

[size=+1]Before you said I did not even read your “Right hand of God post,” now you say it is once again a “circle game.” Which is it?

I quoted a specific passage of scripture, Stephen immediately before he was stoned to death, said “Behold I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.” And I asked, “Did Stephen see what he said he saw?” I also quoted scripture from the OT, David saying “The LORD said unto my Lord.” and “God your God has anointed you.” And again I asked about these specific passages. What did David hear and see? Did David see/understand God to be anointing Himself? Did David understand God to be speaking to Himself? I also quoted from Revelation, Jesus saying, “as I have overcome and am set down with the Father in His throne.” What did Jesus say and what did John understand?

And all you are doing is posting and reposting the same “If-then” argument. If anything I post contradicts scripture then please correct me from the scripture, NOT out-of-context questions based on your presuppositions.

If by “circle game” you mean “Circular argument”, you evidently don’t understand what a “Circular argument” is. Here is the definition, please show me how any of my posts fit this description?[/size]

Circulus in demonstrando(circular argument). Circular argumentation occurs when someone uses what they are trying to prove as part of the proof of that thing. Here is one of my favorite examples (in pared down form): "Marijuana is illegal in every state in the nation. And we all know that you shouldn't violate the law. Since smoking pot is illegal, you shouldn't smoke pot. And since you shouldn't smoke pot, it is the duty of the government to stop people from smoking it, which is why marijuana is illegal!"

http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Circulus in demonstrando

Der Alte · Sep 7, 2003

Bekah Ferguson said:
DER ALTER= In response to 1 John 5:7 (You say proves it proves the Trinity)

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father,
the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

We might ask "there are three WHAT that bear record?" But, that verse explained itself already. There are three that bear record, period.

[size=+1]First the verse begins, “there are three,” it does not begin , “there is one in heaven.” There are three in heaven, and then it identifies the three, “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.” In the gospel, that bears his name, John identifies the Word as God who became flesh. And these three, NOT one, “bear record.” “Bear record” translates the word “martureo” and is translated as, bear witness, testify, bear record, witness, be a witness, and give testimony. Only sentient, cognizant, rational beings can “bear record, be a witness, give testimony” So John recognized that in heaven there were somehow three sentient, cognizant, rational beings, and also somehow the three are one.[/size]

Bekah Ferguson said:
We are made in God's image, are we not? Are we Trinity's of Persons? No, we have a soul, body, and mind, but each one of those are "members" of the one person. Each one of those "elements" testify of the one "person" in a different way, but none of them are separate persons in us, are they? Does the scripture concur?

1 Corinthians 12:12 "For AS THE BODY IS ONE, AND HATH MANY MEMBERS, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: SO ALSO IS
CHRIST... 14 For the body is not one member, but many."

Do you see that? "The body has many members... so is CHRIST!" Not the Trinity, but Christ! Many members, each member having separate titles and functions, but only one individual person, and that person has a name, and in this instance it is Jesus Christ!

”'The body has many members... so is CHRIST!'” [size=+1] Misquoting the scripture. The way you have misquoted it the verbs do not agree. “the body has. . . so is Christ.” Here is the correct interpretation, “the body is one . . . so also is Christ." Christ is a member of the body, He is the head, Eph 5:23.[/size]

1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

admtaylor · Sep 7, 2003

If God (Jesus Christ) being the same Yesterday Today and Forever is universally accepted amongst professing Christians then why has it been so easy for satan to deceive the majority of " Christians " that God has somehow been magically transformed from being only One as stated in The book of Isaiah Chapter 44 verse 6 ...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. verse 8 ...Is there a God beside me ? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Chapter45 verse5 I am the LORD , and there is none else , there is no God beside me. I am the LORD and there is none else. And these are but a few of the emphatic references that God makes so that there can be absolutely no doubt as to his monotheistic nature. Yet to believe in the man made satan inspired false doctrine of the trinity you would have to call God a liar and ask where were you hiding the other 2 " persons " of the trinity? I am sorry to have to break the news to all you out there that believe that God is a schizophrenic with multiple personalities but you are believing a lie that will cause you to spend the rest of eternity in the lake of fire because you are in gross violation of the First and Greatest commandment as stated in DT 6:4 Hear O Israel the LORD thy God is ONE (not three) is that too hard to see? God was manifest in the flesh and the man that God walked in was (and is) called Jesus

Pahh!!!

So when Christ informed the apostles that the Comforter was to come after He departed who was He reffering to? To ignore the references of God in three PERSONS throughout the Bible is just selctive theology.

God is ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS. That's all.

Der Alte · Sep 7, 2003

GJG said:
If that wasn't you Der Alter replying to my post, under Old Shepherds name, then why did Old Shepherd reply on your behalf!

[size=+1]I don't know. I have done that before, answer a post addressed to someone else as if it were addressed to me. If fact you did almost the same thing in this post responding to a post addressed to Bekah Ferguson.[/size]

http://www.christianforum.com/showthread.php?p=1002855&postcount=55

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