The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Shane Roach · Mar 27, 2002

Hee hee hee. Also, never say never. You keep implying you have nothing more to say but you know ya can't resist these endtimes rants!!!!

rollinTHUNDER · Mar 27, 2002

Originally posted by Shane Roach
Thunder? I luv ya Bro, but you're using a different version than he was quoting, and the word "until" in your version fulfills the place of the implication he was giving as far as there being a time when the law will pass away.

Lil misunderstanding.

He is still wrong no matter how you look at it. But here is another way, just for good measure.

Look a little closer my friend, and you will see that He didn't say that the law would pass away, but the jot and tittles (of the law). The defense rests, AMEN

1Mamifestation70a.d · Mar 27, 2002

Shane

Perhaps you assume too much. Also, since the book of the Revelation is after all a divine revelation, one would expect to perhaps learn a few new things there. Thanks though for you're concern. We should all try to help one another for sure.

If I assume the reign of Christ on the earth is not in the Bible why don't you show me the verses to back up your views

Please feel free to show us were it says "Christ will reign on earth a 1.000 years.?

GW · Mar 27, 2002

Shane said: "No. He is talking about any salvation that would come through works"

What? Hi Shane.

For you to claim that Matt 5:17-19 is not talking about the Law of Moses is curious indeed.

Perhaps I should re-ask the question this way:

What Law did Christ's original hearers think he was referring to when he mentioned the law and the prophets (5:17) along with its jots and tittles (5:18) and its commands that must be kept even to the least of them (5:19)?

Is this not the Law of Moses?

Shane Roach · Mar 27, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER

He is still wrong no matter how you look at it. But here is another way, just for good measure.

Look a little closer my friend, and you will see that He didn't say that the law would pass away, but the jot and tittles (of the law). The defense rests, AMEN

That is so true, and apropos on so many levels!

Shane Roach · Mar 27, 2002

Originally posted by 1Mamifestation70a.d
Shane

Perhaps you assume too much. Also, since the book of the Revelation is after all a divine revelation, one would expect to perhaps learn a few new things there. Thanks though for you're concern. We should all try to help one another for sure.

If I assume the reign of Christ on the earth is not in the Bible why don't you show me the verses to back up your views Please feel free to show us were it says "Christ will reign on earth a 1.000 years.?

I have already pointed this out to you. There is a timeline explicit in Rev 20. I cannot be convinced to ignore that on the basis of the word "earth" being missing from a spot where you seem to be convinced it is required.

Christ returns, reigns 1000 years, Satan is released again, the judgement, new heavens and new earth. This is explicitly the timeline in Rev 20.

I note in Rev 21 the new earth is described as having no more sea. Perhaps this is the type of detail that will catch your eye. I have no idea really what you're looking for though. It is common practice in reading pretty much anything to assume continuity and to accept contextual clues.

GW · Mar 27, 2002

Shane,

I look forward to your reply to my last question to you on Matt 5:17-19. I trust you'll eventually agree that the verses are speaking of the Law of Moses with its commands and jots and tittles and keeping the commands contained therein.

Also, there is no literal 1000 year period.

(1) There is only one resurrection (Dan 12:2; Jn 5:29) and it is at the second coming (1 Cor 15:23; Jn 11:24).

(2) There is only one judgment and it is at the second coming (1 Tim 4:1).

(3) The Day of the Lord as a thief in the night is the second coming according to Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-4. The same Day of the Lord as a Thief in the Night is the passing away of heavens/earth according to Peter (2 Peter 3:10).

Where'd the 1000 years go?

P.S. -- Jesus told the Sardis Church he was about to come upon them as a thief in the the Night in the 60s AD (Rev 3:2-3), a clear reference to a first century fulfillment of the Day of the Lord (as also stated in Rev 1:1, 1:3, 22:6-7; 22:10-11 and Matt 24:33-34).

Shane Roach · Mar 27, 2002

Originally posted by GW

What? Hi Shane.

For you to claim that Matt 5:17-19 is not talking about the Law of Moses is curious indeed.

Not at all curious. He is talking about righteousness and its nature, and using the well known law of Moses as an example. Once again, this becomes very very plain if you back away from just the one little verse that you are trying to isolate out of context for no reason at all that I can yet identify.

If you would leave off trying to isolate this one little verse I would not have to choose my words so carefully and perhaps they would seem less curious to you. I wonder if you understand how curious it is to me that you seem to feel that truth in a matter can be best found by reading something entirely out of its context?

I notice you leave perhaps the most important statement I feel I made, the one regarding mercy and not sacrifice, totally untouched. Even with your particular interest in jots and tittles, it would seem that this statement regarding mercy would be part and parcel of the jots and tittles you are talking about, so in the final analysis there should really be no problem whether I believe he is talking directly about the law of Moses or whether I think he is talking about righteousness, because the two are related. But they are related in a particular way, seemingly not the one you have in mind, to the best of my ability to understand you.

Originally posted by GW
Perhaps I should re-ask the question this way:

What Law did Christ's original hearers think he was referring to when he mentioned the law and the prophets (5:17) along with its jots and tittles (5:18) and its commands that must be kept even to the least of them (5:19)?
Is this not the Law of Moses?

I hate to do this to you, but since you insist on scrutinizing everything microscopically, I will point out to you that your first question asked what he was talking about, and this new question is what was he refering to. He is talking about righteousness and referring to the law, yes. What other law could he be referring to? He is talking about how yo go about correctly doing right and properly understanding the law.

Has it never entered your mind to wonder why in all the examples that our Lord uses in the sermon on the mount, that not one of them involves sacrifices or rituals?

Did David break a jot or tittle of the law when eating the shewbread from the temple? Were the disciples breaking a jot or tittle gathering corn on the Sabbath with Jesus? Did Jesus, indeed, God Himself, break the law by doing the same?

Shane Roach · Mar 27, 2002

Originally posted by GW
Shane,

I look forward to your reply to my last question to you on Matt 5:17-19. I trust you'll eventually agree that the verses are speaking of the Law of Moses with its commands and jots and tittles and keeping the commands contained therein.

Also, there is no literal 1000 year period.

I'm not entirely sure if there is or isn't, but there is certainly a reference to one.

Originally posted by GW
(1) There is only one resurrection (Dan 12:2; Jn 5:29) and it is at the second coming (1 Cor 15:23; Jn 11:24).

Perhaps, but again there is a reference in Rev 20 to two resurrections, specifically in Rev 20:4-5

Originally posted by GW
(2) There is only one judgment and it is at the second coming (1 Tim 4:1).

I can find no particular reason to doubt this at all.

Originally posted by GW
((3) The Day of the Lord as a thief in the night is the second coming according to Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-4. The same Day of the Lord as a Thief in the Night is the passing away of heavens/earth according to Peter (2 Peter 3:10).

Again, no reason for disagreement that I know of yet.

Originally posted by GW
Where'd the 1000 years go?

They travel from approximately verse 4 of Revelation chapter 20 to verse 6, at which point Satan is released again, according to that account. In the reference you use to 2 Peter one might assume they travel from the time Christ reveals Himself to the point at which He melts away the old and brings about the new, a period refered to as one day, albeit after he refers to a day as a thousand years, apparently as a help for precisely this kind of confusion.

Originally posted by GW
P.S. -- Jesus told the Sardis Church he was about to come upon them as a thief in the the Night in the 60s AD (Rev 3:2-3), a clear reference to a first century fulfillment of the Day of the Lord (as also stated in Rev 1:1, 1:3, 22:6-7; 22:10-11 and Matt 24:33-34).

It makes absolutely no reference whatsoever to a year or date of any kind. Perhaps the book was written at this time but that is the nature of prophecy, that it applies often to the future. Nevertheless, it does appear as if this is the church that will see the Day of the Lord.

Which would leave the church of Philidelphia to be the Church during His reign, and interesting that sure enough the Church at Philidelphia is the one to whom Christ gives victory over the "synagogue of Satan".

This would leave Laodicea to be the last church, during the short period between Satan's loosing and his recapture and utter damnation, if you interpret these passages as refering to entire church ages, which I guess you don't or you wouldn't have brought it up as refering to the 60's a.d.

It will be interesting to hear how it is that you explain that the entire heavens and earth have been melted away and Jesus is now reigning among us without us so much as ever hearing a word about it though. This is something you find easier to explain away than to simply believe that Matthew 5:17 is meant to be understood as part of the sermon on the mount I suppose?

GW · Mar 28, 2002

shane says
I notice you leave perhaps the most important statement I feel I made, the one regarding mercy and not sacrifice, totally untouched. Even with your particular interest in jots and tittles, it would seem that this statement regarding mercy would be part and parcel of the jots and tittles you are talking about, so in the final analysis there should really be no problem whether I believe he is talking directly about the law of Moses or whether I think he is talking about righteousness, because the two are related.

GWreplies
I don't disagree that Jesus cites the provision in the law and prophets concerning "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" (Matt 9:13) or emphasizes the golden rule. It is part of the Law and Prophets. Jesus walked righteously according to the Law and Prophets. So why are you stalling on Matt 5:17-19? I just want to get back to what Matthew 5:17-19 SAYS, but you are trying to get away from looking at the verse.

I'll state it in the positive: the passage of Matthew 5:17-19 says that not one jot nor tittle of the Law of Moses will pass UNTIL heavens/earth pass away and, THEREFORE, whoever breaks the very least of the commands in the Law of Moses and teaches others to do so will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, Shane, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Simple, wasn't it?

GW · Mar 28, 2002

Hi Shane.

The thousand years is a symbol among John's many symbols in the book of Revelation. There is no future slot in history where a 1000 year period can fit. The rest of the bible refutes a literal 1000 year period -- it can't fit on a future timeline.

There are not two resurrections in Revelation 20, or anywhere in scripture for that matter.

Shane said: In the reference you use to 2 Peter one might assume they travel from the time Christ reveals Himself to the point at which He melts away the old and brings about the new, a period refered to as one day, albeit after he refers to a day as a thousand years, apparently as a help for precisely this kind of confusion.

How could the Lord's supposed removal of Heaven and Earth after 1000 years be termed the "Day of the Lord as a thief in the night"? It makes sense only for the second coming, but not for an event supposedly 1000 years after the second coming. How could that come as a thief in the night??? Peter sees no 1000 years reign, and terms the second coming ("Day of the Lord as a thief") as the passing of heavens and earth. Also, 2 Peter 3:8 is not a time formula, but only shows that God himself is beyond time (a thousand years with the Lord is as one day with man; one day with the Lord is as a thousand years with man).

Shane, are you claiming that Christ's personal threat to the Sardis Church in the 1st century to come upon them as a thief does not show we are living well beyond His return to them? (Rev 3:2-3). John contextualizes the fulfillment of the vision within the 1st century (Rev 1:1; 1:3; 22:6-7; 22:10-11), as also does Christ in the Olivet (Matt 24:34). We are surely now 19 centuries beyond the fulfillment of Rev 3:2-3) and the book of Revelation.

rollinTHUNDER · Mar 28, 2002

Originally posted by Shane Roach

Not at all curious. He is talking about righteousness and its nature, and using the well known law of Moses as an example. Once again, this becomes very very plain if you back away from just the one little verse that you are trying to isolate out of context for no reason at all that I can yet identify.

If you would leave off trying to isolate this one little verse I would not have to choose my words so carefully and perhaps they would seem less curious to you. I wonder if you understand how curious it is to me that you seem to feel that truth in a matter can be best found by reading something entirely out of its context?

Your right Shane,
He was using the law to compare it with righteousness, which the two are completely different. Like comparing apples to tomatoes, one is sweet, and the other is not.

Matt. 5: 20 - "For I tell you unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Since when were the Pharisees righteous?? But everyone who is born again is righteous in Christ. So we are the apples, and the Pharisees are tomatoes. The Pharisees rejected Christ, and the entire gospel message. No wonder you will not enter heaven if you are no better than them, DUH !!

Shane Roach · Mar 28, 2002

Originally posted by GW
There are not two resurrections in Revelation 20, or anywhere in scripture for that matter.

Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: in such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Out of curiosity, what is the significance of believing we are past the second coming? What does this suggest to us that we ought to do any different than if we are waiting still for His coming?

parousia70 · Mar 28, 2002

Originally posted by Shane Roach

I have already pointed this out to you. There is a timeline explicit in Rev 20.

I'm sorry, but the notion that we must use a strict, literal interpratation of the 1000 year "time frame" sure sounds strange coming from someone who chooses to stretch and elasticize "shortly, soon, coming quickly, about to be, at hand, etc, etc," into 2000+years.

If 1000 years is as a day to God, and a Day is as 1000 years, and this is a correct mathmatical formula for interprating prophetic time, the the Millennium can last only one earth day and satisfy 1000 years to God.

2Peter 3:8 is a 2 way street!!

rollinTHUNDER · Mar 28, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70

I'm sorry, but the notion that we must use a strict, literal interpratation of the 1000 year "time frame" sure sounds strange coming from someone who chooses to stretch and elasticize "shortly, soon, coming quickly, about to be, at hand, etc, etc," into 2000+years.

If 1000 years is as a day to God, and a Day is as 1000 years, and this is a correct mathmatical formula for interprating prophetic time, the the Millennium can last only one earth day and satisfy 1000 years to God.

2Peter 3:8 is a 2 way street!!

Hello parousia,
This is exactly why we are still in the age of "Grace". I am going to start a new thread soon that will show why we have gone way past your 1000 years, and 2000. It was fortold my friend. Be patient, I still have some more studying to do on it, I mean finding all the scriptures to back it up. This is something new, that the Lord just recently revealed to me. So, hold that thought.........

parousia70 · Mar 28, 2002

Originally posted by Shane Roach

Out of curiosity, what is the significance of believing we are past the second coming? What does this suggest to us that we ought to do any different than if we are waiting still for His coming?

Shane that is an excellent question! I'm sure you will get several responses, for it seems to have varying implications.

For me, it liberated my "world view" from the bondage of the idea that: "it has to get worse before it can get better, so why polish the brass on a sinking ship if I'm on the "next flight out"?" into the sure belief that it is my job to work every day of my life to advance Gods never ending Kingdom on earth. Scripture confirms my confidence that at this task, I can not fail!

Since I am confident in the knowledge of the fact that God said His creation is "very good," and remembering that God promised to never again curse the ground or destroy mankind as He did in Noah's day, I cannot possibly expect that God will bring a cataclysmic judgment to end the generations of mankind. The truth is that the Scriptures tell us the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

The Bible describes the Kingdom of Christ on earth as a kingdom that will increase until it covers "the whole earth" "as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9; Dan 2:35; cf. Matt. 13:33). According to the Scriptures, it will increase on earth until all of God's enemies are "under His feet" (I Cor. 15:25). The Scriptures further say that the Kingdom will bring blessing to "all the families of the earth" (Gen. 12:3; Ps. 22:7); to "all the nations" (Matt. 28:19; Ps. 72:17; Ps. 86:9); to "all men" (Isa. 66:23), even to "the very ends of the earth" (Ps. Ps. 2:8; 22:27; 72:8; Isa. 11:9; Zech. 9:10; Acts 1:8; 13:47).

The Church was born conquering, it was established conquering and it forever conquers to the glory of Christ! As the Scriptures teach:

"May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun shines...." (Ps. 72:17).

"There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore...." (Isa. 9:7).

Christians do not know future events, but we must be fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).

YBIC,
P70

Shane Roach · Mar 28, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70

I'm sorry, but the notion that we must use a strict, literal interpratation of the 1000 year "time frame" sure sounds strange coming from someone who chooses to stretch and elasticize "shortly, soon, coming quickly, about to be, at hand, etc, etc," into 2000+years.

If 1000 years is as a day to God, and a Day is as 1000 years, and this is a correct mathmatical formula for interprating prophetic time, the the Millennium can last only one earth day and satisfy 1000 years to God.

2Peter 3:8 is a 2 way street!!

I have quite frankly and openly stated that I have no idea if there will be a literal 1000 years. What I have stated is that it IS referred to and that the time LINE of the statement indicates that it is before the destruction of our present earth and the creation of a new earth.

There are descriptions of the nature of the new heavens and earth that do not match our present age. For one, there is no sea in the new heavends and earth. (Rev 21:1)

My goal here is not to prove or disprove anyone's ideas about the end times, but to point out that what some people have been saying about the Bible never says this or that are simply not true. It is not true to say that Bible never speaks of a 1000 year reign on this earth, and it is not true to say the Bible never mentions a first and second resurection. You mat honestly debate the exact proper interpretaion of the verses, but they are there, and to say they are not there is simply not true.

So far it seems to me that this idea that Christ has already come depends largely on huge and obvious errors in the use of common grammar. Perhaps I'm wrong, but so far all I get is "this particular word is missing from this particular spot so therefore the whole understanding of the present Christian church as waiting for Jesus to retrun is false".

Again, what is the relevance of this belief? Do we no longer have to believe in Christ? Are we supposed to do something different if you're correct? Or is this just a case of discussing something esoteric and interesting?

Woops! I just saw that you slipped a post in before me so belay that last paragraph.

Shane Roach · Mar 28, 2002

So what happens when you die?

Phoenix · Mar 28, 2002

Christians do not know future events, but we must be fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be
"exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

What an outstanding post Parousia70 .. i may be missing something or have missed it-where do you stand on a full preterist interpretation of end-time events ?

GW · Mar 28, 2002

Hi Shane.

Have you ever read any preterist books? What view of endtimes are you most familiar with?

I always recommend Gary DeMar's books: "Last Days Madness" and also "Endtimes Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." DeMar is a well-known preterist author who has been initiating public debates with Tommy Ice and other dispensationalists. The reviews and sample pages at Amazon.com are very helpful:

Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church with the Last Days
by Gary DeMar
--A classic.

End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology
by Gary DeMar
*click on title to read reviews
*or click here to listen to interview with author using Real Audio.

These links could be of interest:

The Beast of Revelation -- Identified!
by Kenneth Gentry
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/gentry-ken_pp_02.html
--article identifies that St. John clearly spoke of Nero as the man-beast (6-6-6) of Revelation.

The Destruction of Jerusalem
- George Peter Holford (1805)
"Absolute and irresistible proof of the divine origin of Christianity : including a narrative of the calamities which befel the Jews, so far as they tend to verify Our Lord's predictions."

The Parousia
James Stuart Russell
-- important historic work in the past 150 years

The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

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