The truth of wicca

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Not so. You could simply be following him as a moral teacher.

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Apparently you are using some definition of the word "lord" with which I am unfamiliar.

The Savior part is also paramount.

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If Jesus saves them, then he is their savior. Strictly speaking, Jesus can't be your savior until you are dead.

Wiccans don't pay much attention to Jesus' teachings, and don't consider them divine.

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Well, very few people pay attention to Jesus's teachings. I could say the same thing about people claiming to be Christian if I just lumped them all together. But there are Wiccans who happen to obey his teachings, even if they are "a law unto themselves."

Wiccans sin by violating the first commandment

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Not all of them though. What's a schima? I don't recall Jesus giving any rules regarding doing magic, plus Jesus went around performing magic. Jesus's teachings about idolatry mostly concerned working for and desiring money. Why would some Wiccan who can perform magic work for money?

You will continue to sin until you are dead or glorified, whether you are wiccan or not.

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OK, so maybe some Wiccans are already glorified then, whatever that means. To deny that a person can stop sinning is to deny the power of God's grace to overcome sin. Jesus asks nothing from us which God does not give us the grace to accomplish.

You have no reason to suspect that there is anyone who will be sinless for any length of time.

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Other than the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church? Other than the testimony of Holy Scripture? Other than those whom I've known who have been sinless for any length of time? Well, I guess if I can't believe my Church, or my Bible, or my own two eyes, then I would have no reason to suspect this.

If a wiccan casts a spell by the power of the Goddess Isis, this is not God.

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A rose by another name. There's only one God/Goddess, no matter what you choose to call him or her.

Wiccans don't serve Jehovah God!

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Anyone who obeys Jesus's teachings serves God.

This is a grievous sin, whole nations were judged/destroyed in the OT because of similar idolatry!

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Well, you should really review Jesus's teachings about idolatry. The only graven image Jesus talked about was money.

And you don't think this is idolatry?

Why are you defending idolatry?

The truth about wicca is this: It is idolatry.

Stop defending idolatry! God is jealous, and he hates
idolatry!

Rather, spend your time winning wiccans to Christ rather than the other way around.

I've talked to wiccans who have no problem with black magic. They eschewed it primarily because the spells tend to come back on them in some karmic fashion. It wasn't a desire to do good that made them refrain, but self-interest. I'm sure there are "white" wiccans who just feel they are good in themselves, of course. Is there anything "good enough" in you, good_news, to warrant you being saved by God? Have you earned his approval? If you think so, than like many wiccan, you underestimate the grievous nature of sin.

"Anyone who obeys Jesus's teachings serves God."

Jesus said that He is the only way to God. He also said "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and stregnth."

In the second quote He was speaking of a particular Lord and God. It was not a goddess.

Also Jesus often quoted the OT and believed that the OT was true. So even if Jesus did not say anything directly about idolatry it really does not matter since He did believe it was a sin because the OT said it was. Of course this is not like the customary laws of the Isrealites that the Bible says that we do not have to keep any longer. i.e. circumsism (physical)

The same thing goes for magic. A miracle is not magic. We do no miracles. God does them all. God actually condemns magic in the Bible.

Basically what I want to say is that Wiccans do not serve God. They can't because they do not know who the right God is. It is like me saying I am a Muslim but I worship Jesus as God. I am not Mulim I am Christian. Likewise Wiccans can't change God's nature and attributes and then say we worship the Christian God.

BH6

Hi Dave_Ulchers,

Truly, we cannot seem to agree about anything.

I'm not inside of anyone's head to know whether they're sinning, but I know from looking in my own that I sin continually, despite being saved. Is it not so with you? I would cite Paul's admissions of his own sinful warrings as my proof text.

"Lord" is someone in authority over you. *sheesh* What definition do you use? Christ is my savior now and perpetually, continuously being my High Priest before God.

Sorry, it's "Shema": Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart & mind & soul. Jesus did no magic, he did all the miracles through the Holy Spirit of God. Anyone who does the same things not through God is condemned in the Bible. Do you actually contest this? It's ok to call on spiritual powers other than God?

Idolatry is not only love of Mammon / money, it is anything that takes the place of God in your heart. Like Mother Earth is to the wiccan.

Any other Catholics out there? Dave's views don't seem very Catholic to me - could anyone of that faith verify their veracity / soundness? I thought I knew Catholic doctrine pretty well, and Dave's ideas don't match up with my understanding at all.

I don't believe that the Pope has said that it's ok for wiccans to simply follow Christ's teachings, but continue in the practice of wicca. Is that what you are saying, Dave_Ulchers?

Wiccans use the power of their Goddess to perform spells

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Now who the heck would she be?

God is one!
He is the Alpha and Omega!

Tell her to go find her own Creation!

I am sorry , I know I am being rude but this is way too funny!!!

People actually buy into this crap?
Your dancing with the Devil!

Dave Ulchers??? I am surprised at some of your comments on this thread. I thought you had it together better than that.

LOVE

Goodnews, I am asking you this seriously, what do you think a Christian is? How do you know YOU are a Christian?

good_news,

I'm quite familiar with the Wiccan rede. Why do you assume I have done no research? I stated earlier that I have had many in depth conversations with wiccans. The first person who told me this rede immediately followed with, but if a "novice" or evil wiccan transgressed this by doing black magic, there is a force in the universe which tends to direct your evil intent back at you. There is no wiccan bible, or absolute authority within wicca, so your stating that so-and-so may claim to be a wicca, but really isn't, becomes very nebulous. There's no standard, only a loose set of somewhat optional rules that individuals are allowed to accept or not.

Why are you offended as a Christian when I discuss wicca? You are not wiccan, there is nothing to be offended by. You would be offended against a child of God for contending with an idolatrous people? Methinks thou dost protest too much.

goodnews, I do love my nieghbor. I have not said or done anything to make anyone think otherwise. I love the sinner, not the sin. I am asking you a question, I am happy to answer the same. I am not questioning if you are a Christian or not, just what you believe a Christian is, and how you are sure of your Christianity. I think a Christian is a person who has a personal relationship with God, believes the Bible is the Word of God, lives by the two most important commandments, love your God with all your heart soul and mind, love your neighbor as yourself. I know I am a Christian because my faith is in Christ's sacrifice for my sins, that He is the Son of the One True Living God, that He rose again, and is sitting on the right hand of the Father interceeding for ME!! (I still am in awe of that). I believe that a persons walk in this life, what fruits they produce, show where they are spiritually. I could go on forever, but these are the main ones. Now it is your turn.

good news : Just maybe, I am one of the ones you think is not showing Christ-Like Love.

Love is more than saying what you think someone wants to hear. Jesus had very little tolerance for the hypocrites. He often showed righteous anger!

There is, like you said, a difference between knowing and not knowing. You little one...KNOW Better!
If they are truly your friends then how can you not help them?

God Bless You!!

LOVE

Originally posted by blackhaw6
Jesus said that He is the only way to God. He also said "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and stregnth."

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Yes, Jesus's teachings are the only way to God. Jesus said anyone who obeys his teachings loves Him and is loved by God.

It was not a goddess.

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We know God isn't really male or female. There's nothing wrong with refering to God with a female pronoun.

So even if Jesus did not say anything directly about idolatry it really does not matter since He did believe it was a sin because the OT said it was.

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We're not under the old law, but the new law of love. The laws of the OT no longer apply.

A miracle is not magic.

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Of course it is. Two words for the same thing.

Wiccans do not serve God.

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Whoever obeys Jesus's teachings serves God. How can you say someone who does God's will doesn't serve God?

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
I'm not inside of anyone's head to know whether they're sinning, but I know from looking in my own that I sin continually, despite being saved.

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The children of God do not sin. See 1st John chapter 3. You ought to repent.

I would cite Paul's admissions of his own sinful warrings as my proof text.

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You mean from Romans 7? That is just Paul talking about before he came to Christ. See the footnote from the NAB. Also, in Romans 8 he says he and his audience are children of God. Since we know the children of God don't sin, we know what he says in Romans 7 must not be about himself.

"Lord" is someone in authority over you. *sheesh* What definition do you use?

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If someone is in authority over you, then you obey them. At least we agree on something.

Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart & mind & soul.

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Yes, and keeping Jesus's teachings is how you do that.

Jesus did no magic, he did all the miracles through the Holy Spirit of God.

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So he did white magic. What's your point?

Idolatry is not only love of Mammon / money, it is anything that takes the place of God in your heart. Like Mother Earth is to the wiccan.

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I don't see how respect for the work of the Creator is incompatible with love of the Creator.

I don't believe that the Pope has said that it's ok for wiccans to simply follow Christ's teachings, but continue in the practice of wicca.

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As a set of beliefs, Wicca does not have full access to the truth, as can be said about all non-Catholic religions. That doesn't preclude the salvation of individuals of any faith though. God created the sacraments, but he isn't bound by them.

Galatians 6:3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself without comparing himself to somebody else for each one should carry his own load.

Galatians 5:19-26 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery: idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkeness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passion and desires Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

"We're not under the old law, but the new law of love. The laws of the OT no longer apply."

Wrong. We are free from the law meaning that we have grace. And Jesus came to fulfill the law also. But to say that the law is meaningless is not correct. The law still is correct. (besides the customary laws) We still should not murder. It is still a sin. By your standards many things would no longer be wrong because the NT does not declare that they are. This is just not true.

BH6

Jesus said "do not kill" is one of the commandments. Jesus never said anything about obeying the Old Testament laws, only His teachings, which are a fulfillment of the law. Circumcision is a good example: Jesus gave no commandment regarding circumcision, or keeping kosher, etc.

Goodnews, Jesus said that if one were embaressed about Him before man, He would be embaressed about them before the Father. I do love my neighbor. Am I supposed to except thier sin? What about child molesters? Do YOU love THEM? If so, do you feel you should defend thier actions in order to show your love for them?