when did life start and continue on the planet?

Michali · Sep 1, 2003

lucaspa said:
We don't know exactly how energy is borrowed from the vacuum. We can only see the effects. No, not from the "walls outside the vacuum", since the same effect would happen in deep space where there are no walls.

Apparently, there is no piece of space with zero energy.

Now, what you are saying in this post and the previous one is that virtual particles are appearing in an existing spacetime. However, at the Big Bang spacetime itself comes into existence.

The answer is that one of the attractions of String Theory is that the calculations show that spacetime itself can be a quantum fluctuation (virtual particles are quantum fluctuations). So now we have the theoretical means to get a spacetime out of quantum fluctuations.

So, if we don't know how matter is made from nothing, but it does occur, then have we refuted the law of conservation of energy?

I do understand that spacetime itself had to, at some point come into existence as well. If it came from quantum fluctuations, then there had to be some sort of space and time that the quanta were in. Meaning space time was already existant. So long as there is a peice of anything in existence, there becomes moments, chances, recordings, and all sorts of mathematical classifications. If your on the existance exists rung on the ladder, you have atleast one more rung to go. Where there is absolutely nothing. It is inconceivable that there would be no existence, but is existence itself within another system? Will we run into a constant? The floor on which the ladder sits? It is the creation of existence itself that we are questioning.

lucaspa · Sep 1, 2003

Michali said:
So, if we don't know how matter is made from nothing, but it does occur, then have we refuted the law of conservation of energy?

Remember, energy and matter are different forms of the same thing -- E = mc^2. What we have is that, for a time, the energy of the vacuum manifests itself as matter.

I do understand that spacetime itself had to, at some point come into existence as well. If it came from quantum fluctuations, then there had to be some sort of space and time that the quanta were in. Meaning space time was already existant.

That's where String Theory comes in. Instead of having an existing spacetime (one word), spacetime can come into existence from nothing via quantum fluctuations. So now you have an Uncaused Cause.

Now, you would have to review the math to see how exactly how this happens. All I can do is report what the physcists say in ordinary language. However, several physicists have checked the work and report the same thing.

It is the creation of existence itself that we are questioning.

Since "existence" that we know of is the physical universe, we are questioning the creation of the universe. If there is another level of "existence", i.e. spiritual, science can't (at the moment anyway) know about it.

revolutio · Sep 1, 2003

LorentzHA said:
must be a duck!

She's a witch! Burn her!

Michali · Sep 1, 2003

lucaspa said:
Remember, energy and matter are different forms of the same thing -- E = mc^2. What we have is that, for a time, the energy of the vacuum manifests itself as matter.

That's where String Theory comes in. Instead of having an existing spacetime (one word), spacetime can come into existence from nothing via quantum fluctuations. So now you have an Uncaused Cause.

Now, you would have to review the math to see how exactly how this happens. All I can do is report what the physcists say in ordinary language. However, several physicists have checked the work and report the same thing.

Since "existence" that we know of is the physical universe, we are questioning the creation of the universe. If there is another level of "existence", i.e. spiritual, science can't (at the moment anyway) know about it.

Thank you for all the information. I need to look into String theory, as well as the No Boundary theory. I have learned a lot in this thread. I used to think that scientists had not delved so deep as to question the complete origin of existence. Including a time when there was not spacetime. The reason I don't use the word universe is because most people will assume I'm including spacetime with universe.

webboffin · Sep 2, 2003

OneLargeToe said:
Given the near infinite size of the universe, even with incredibe odds of something happening, it had to happen somewhere.

A good analogy is the lottery: What are the odds of someone winning the lottery? Like 1 in 21 million. Now, imagine someone winning the lottery and claiming God made them win. Do you actually think God intervened to have that person win? Or did they just get lucky? Given the number of people playing, someone, somewhere is going to win.

Same applies to life on Earth. We won the lotto!

The lotto has a relatively a small set number of combinations to near "infinity". The more closer to combination "infinity" the the lotto is the less chance there would be a winner.
So infinity or closer to it in fact in this instance would reduce your chances of jackpot.

Q. Is the universe of exhaustive random infinity?

webboffin · Sep 2, 2003

double posted

Jet Black · Sep 2, 2003

webboffin said:
The lotto has a relatively a small set number of combinations to near "infinity". The more closer to combination "infinity" the the lotto is the less chance there would be a winner.
So infinity or closer to it in fact in this instance would reduce your chances of jackpot.

Q. Is the universe of exhaustive random infinity?

remember the lottery only has one winning solution. we don't. abiogenesis (more than likely) doesn't either.

lucaspa · Sep 2, 2003

Michali said:
I used to think that scientists had not delved so deep as to question the complete origin of existence. Including a time when there was not spacetime. The reason I don't use the word universe is because most people will assume I'm including spacetime with universe.

You're welcome. Why shouldn't you include spacetime with universe? That's correct. The universe is matter/energy/spacetime.

webboffin · Sep 2, 2003

Jet Black said:
remember the lottery only has one winning solution. we don't. abiogenesis (more than likely) doesn't either.

I accept your note that is true too.

Life from a non-creationalist point of view of how it started is still largely unknown. Some may suggest an asteriod with life compounds entering Earth somehow created life. Whether or not it is scientifically unknown, and it would beg the question so far as we know - why only Earth?

Michali · Sep 2, 2003

lucaspa said:
You're welcome. Why shouldn't you include spacetime with universe? That's correct. The universe is matter/energy/spacetime.

In my opinion, existence is an outside system in comparison to the universe. The universe exists, but existence does not exist. It is existence. Plus, when describing a void (before the beginning) there was not matter/energy/spacetime. If that is what the universe is, then existence is the word I'll continue to use.

God's name being "I Am", means alot on this subject. That is his sole attribute unlike what he has created. (Its also the hardest thing for people to believe.) I believe he actually concieved and created existence. He is over existence. If this is true, then I guess he actually does not exist. He just lives.

Arikay · Sep 2, 2003

It may not only be just earth.

As far as our solar system, its been only earth because this planet is best suited, however we have no clue how many other planets have the correct chemicals, just not the correct temp to work.
However, it is possible that life or the beginings of life might be under the surface of one of Jupiters Moons. When the probe that is orbiting jupiter is retired, they are actually planing on crashing it into jupiter for fear that if left floating, it could run into one of the moons and screw up the begining life.

As far as outside our solar system, we really cant look too well, all we can really search for is inteligent life that uses radio signals.

We have only been able to transmit radio signals into outerspace for the last hundred years or so. If you figure life started around 3.8 billion years ago. We have been able to send out radio signals for 0.000003% of the total existance of life on this planet. And we have been looking for even less.

So, if another planet takes as long as ours to evolve to inteligent radio sending life, those two 0.000003% windows need to overlap, and someone would need to be looking for the radio signals.

So its a Very long shot that we will find anything, even if it is out there.

webboffin said:
I accept your note that is true too.

Life from a non-creationalist point of view of how it started is still largely unknown. Some may suggest an asteriod with life compounds entering Earth somehow created life. Whether or not it is scientifically unknown, and it would beg the question so far as we know - why only Earth?

Michali · Sep 2, 2003

Someone once brought up to me that: If there is an infinite amount of planets, but not every planet has life on it. Is there a finite amount of lifeless planets?

Infinity is very confusing

OneLargeToe · Sep 2, 2003

Michali said:
Someone once brought up to me that: If there is an infinite amount of planets, but not every planet has life on it. Is there a finite amount of lifeless planets?

Infinity is very confusing

It's not literally infinite. Just near-infinite due to the size.

Michali · Sep 2, 2003

What is on the outside? If people say that the universe is existence. Then the universe must be infinite because if you travel off the edge you would be existing outside of the universe. I believe that the universe is finite. Its the only way to explain why it isn't ruled by chaos. Still, if it is finite, it is in something else. Until you reach an infinite.

Michali · Sep 2, 2003

OneLargeToe said:
It's not literally infinite. Just near-infinite due to the size.

Oh wait. Did you mean planets?

No, they have to be infinite if the universe is infinite. Infact, everything is.

Arikay · Sep 2, 2003

They dont have to be infinite if the universe is infinite. If there is a finite amount of matter, then there is a finite amount of planets. However, the number is rather huge.

Michali said:
Oh wait. Did you mean planets?

No, they have to be infinite if the universe is infinite. Infact, everything is.

Michali · Sep 2, 2003

we were just talking earlier about how matter came about in a vaccum. its infinite.

Arikay · Sep 2, 2003

Was it matter as in atoms (like what a planet is made out of) or particles?
How long did they stick around?

Michali said:
we were just talking earlier about how matter came about in a vaccum. its infinite.

Michali · Sep 2, 2003

Arikay said:
Was it matter as in atoms (like what a planet is made out of) or particles?
How long did they stick around?

Long enough to create a universe, supposedly. Big Bang theory supposedly hangs on it.

I still don't know what exactly they are. Somehow matter just popped into existence as energy was drawn from the vaccum itself.

Arikay · Sep 2, 2003

A vacume is still Spacetime. We do not know what was before the big bang, but that it created spacetime itself.

Particles do pop into existance but they quickly pop back out (I believe it has something to do with Quantum Mechanics or such), However I believe the amount of matter, such as that that makes up Planets, is finite.

when did life start and continue on the planet?

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