It is true that God is the law (ie it is the PERSON of God himself which is the law), but it is not true that the law is God. You keep confusing the two, and this is what the SDA church does.
The SDA church is irrelevant to the conversation! I am not part of the SDA church!
The statement that Paul gave no offense to the Jews was in line with the emphasis of his life: all things to all men. So "to the Jews I became as a Jew" has everything to do with it.
Concerning you lack of response to my other rebuttals, this indicates you have no response: you are defeated point by point.
No I was not joking these things have nothing to do with each other, why?and No I did not indicate anything other then my feelings of the matter. If you would like I will go over each one of your statements one by one, but I rather not consistering you never address my point on any of your rebuttals.
As for my example,
Your statement refers to why he kept doing Jewish traditions!
The statement I used had to do with respect for the law!
Hence comes the problem with your statements, I will quote my self on the purpose, now I want you to think really hard, does anything you put relate to what I said!
datsar said:
These are only here to show his respect for the law, I am not trying to use them to explain any other principle!
Now really do you think you are refuting his respect for the law or another principle?
See why I said what I did yet (in this regard)?
Concerning the few responses you have made (eg the one where I asked you whether you obeyed the speed limit in Algiers on your own roads), you have displayed what I have found all legalists display: a lack of ability to constrain your answer according to the terms of a philosophical concept so that it is both consistent with that concept, AND in harmony with the word. Instead, you simply repeat your dogma.
The point being made was that if you are not under the law, then obeying it would be tantamount to obeying the speed limit of a country whose law you were not under in the human realm.
Rather than reconcile your belief with this apparent inconsistency, you simply repeated your dogma "because my Lord said He wanted it done",
thus denying the basis of the challenge: that he said he didn't want it done by virtue of his telling us we are not under the law. All you have done therefore is to say "yes we are". This is no argument.
I am very sorry you feel that why, but just to tell you it sounds more like you then me? I offered many philosophical arguments and examples, most of which you never responded to at all, or took piece by piece and thus missing the context and thus the philosophy!
However, I do respect your misunderstanding on the answer I gave to where you asked me whether you obeyed the speed limit in Algiers on your own roads, because of your way of thinking I see how this could have become a problem.
Allow me to explain further:
The flaw with this analogy is it misrepresents God! For in regard to speed limit it is made in a legal setting taking on the form presented of God by the many of the wrongful Pharisee teachings of Jesus time!
God is not a just a lawgiver, he is much more including a life giver, we only have one word for this in are simplistic not defiant language, this being Father! A father does not impose this type of rule system on to his son! You see instead a father, out of love, makes rules to protect his children, this rules made out of love are the same as God laws, accept of course being that these law are as you say too Good!
So you see since the laws are not as the laws of a state but as the laws of a father we can understand where and how the Pharisee of the time went wrong! And you and your analogy went wrong. A better analogy would be one involving a father figure:
So For this I assume you have the best possible dad, I do not know how true this is but you understand that god is that, I hope!
Suppose you father tells you do not go play in traffic, he tells you this many time and thus it is made a law of his house, and if you go on to a road to play, he will stop you will all the force necessary which may even include punishment (but still all these laws come of love, and thus they are not like a speed limit law)! We also know that the natural punishment for sin is death, as it is with the traffic. But what happened, through Jesus Christ we grow up, we saw what we should be, in flesh, we were given the spirit (wisdom of God), and we where release of the law of the house. Yet would you go play in traffic even if you were freed of the punishment of the father? The spirit teaches us the same thing as the law, if they are different, then that spirit is not of God.
Of course I bet you right now, your going to say, "Law is not of faith', but you need to start understanding that they both teach the same thing, except one gives salvation,and one does not make the other void, nor makes it sinful! that which is in the law is good, but cannot bring salvation (which is like growing up and being like your father! Do not get me wrong I am not saying you are equal or greater then the father, just like), that which is in faith can bring salvation but can more easy be counterfeited, and can only give wisdom not instruction?
Do you see yet, how love and faith would bring you to do what is in the law? Not that we are under the law, or that if we do against the law we are condemned! For remember most of what is good fruits is in the law (word), and faith can not survive without good fruits!
Legalists do not have the ability to delimit their arguments along philosphical lines. They merely simplistically quote scripture.
Paul often lays down his teaching based on logic/philospohy. Eg, "was Abraham considered righteous after circumcision or before?" thus arguing within the confines of the concept of "precedent". If your dogma is not consistent with the philosophical and logical 'universals' of the secular realm (the shadow realm ) it is wrong.
I think you re confused who is using what; it is you who is skipping over my logic/philosophy arguments/questions, and concentrated your time ripping apart my ideas which are not one liners, then making them one liners and then responding to something out of context!
I will do my part to try and stop this, if I am doing it, by I would need you to do the same!
So you agree the law is not of faith, and then you assert that the Law = the Word of God. This should put you on notice that your doctrine is wrong, for in so asserting you declare the Word of God to be not of faith.
Who said it was faith that writes the laws? I never said that.
I said it was God who writes the laws, hence Gods word
In-less you are saying that God is faith, which of course is a lie, for our faith is in God, not God is faith! So by saying ?law is not faith? he is not saying, ?law is not God? thus there is nothing wrong with my logic but your understanding and nitpicking!
What you don't see is that the Word of God is not laws, but a person
What you do not see is the bible, if you think this, where does the law come from then hell? That is your logic.
If all you are saying is that the law was only made for Jesus to prove Jesus, which is what I believe your point is! I say unto you three things:
- You call a man good you do that by which you call that man good!
- What about the laws for Adam, he got commanded by law, and how did that turn out for him
- If filling means to make void then how come Paul say the opposite
Christ = Word of God = God, which is of faith.
I believe that Jesus is the word of God, so why is it me who walks in his footsteps and you in another?
I have yet to understand your argument in this regard, if not the word of God (Christ/God) is not who you are listing to then who exactly are you listening to, that little voice in your head, or a wisdom that tells you that anyone who keeps the law can not have faith?
No, Follow God is to follow God. God is not his laws. God is His person.
First you clam Christ to be God, then God to be the word of God,
Yet, you think his laws came out of nowhere, very interesting, but very unfounded!
For if his laws did not come in his words then where did they come from?
Thus it says "as many as are led by the Spirit (the Person of the Spirit as he speaks directly to you, not via laws), they shall be the Sons of God".
That?s very interesting, you think he speak directly to you, and tells you do against the law? Very interesting, and this voice you say its Gods? Who ever told you the spirit speaks, the spirit gives you Godly wisdom which is much different then speaking, much more like understanding? Understanding what, I will give you a hint you called it Christ!
So lets see so far you proved that you hear a voice in your head that?s not your own, you should really get that look at!
A wife can follow her husband just by holding his hand and letting him lead.
Your right! but sadly the grooms away in heaven, and he has yet to come back to take his bride!
Can you not follow the Laws and still have faith,
No, because it does not take faith to follow laws. What do you think the whole NT was brought in for? Because "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH" (meaning "IT DOES NOT TAKE FAITH TO KEEP THE LAW")
You cannot join new cloth to old. One will tear the other.
The law schoolmastered us to marriage to Christ. Christ then does not lead us back to school. If you are looking at laws, then you are not looking at Christ. You cannot look at 2 things at the same time.
I realize you made a mistake, but did you know you just said your wrong! Sorry I left out an alternative questions, however for your answer, that very nice that you assume that you have Christ being the head of your church, I am very happy of you, so how did you guys take the revelations vision on Christ receiving his bride, that must work out very well for you, wait Christ can not take a new bride in till the old ones dead, lol? JK. That is very nice you think that, but I do not get why you go against what Jesus did which was the law, then you say your married to yet you do not do what is written of him!
Of course, since the laws are good you can also follow the laws and still have faith as long as it is out of faith that you follow the laws!
"THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH". (Meaning: "IT DOES NOT TAKE FAITH TO KEEP THE LAW"). This means that faith replaces the law, not that it assists us to keep it. We do not have faith to follow that which has none of itself.
See no, everyone one got salvation from faith, and many kept the law (David, Job)!Of course you say they all are getting the second death, because they could not have had faith because they also followed the law. So you saying that no one but a god believing pagan could be saved!
I find it funny how you condemn me, and I only say your wrong, I never said your so wrong you will loss your salvation, you see I said one can have faith and no law (as long all he does is out of faith, of course since Christ is the word, I would see no reason why one would not complete most of the law anyways and not even know it,)
I am just saying that if you do faith and law (which has be proven possible) that you are improving your odds of being acceptable, so I am not saying you are condemn as you said to me, only be careful for this idea leads you away from trust!
Yet you keep on saying it is impossible for law to come from faith?
No. God does: "(keeping) the law is not of faith Gal 3:12".
Would it be better for you if I said doing the law, J
So I guess Job/David was either magically saved, for they kept the law out of faith.
Of course they were part of and old covenant, right?
One that allowed for the keeping of the law?
Or was it that they were saved because of law?
Or did the spirit never give man wisdom back then?
Or did Christ death not justify them as much as us?
The answer of course in no to all of those, because the old covenant was a way of thinking, the next step in the puzzle,
The law does not bring salvation that was Paul point! I am sorry that in his wisdom he confused you of such? I thought James explains it best ?faith can not survive without good acts? the same way ?law cannot be done with out faith?, as to your theory that ?law can never be done in faith, now? it would mean God changed the Game plan, and that sir is ridiculous!
Paul point in short: justified before the law so to they are justified after the law.
You would understand that he could not just say this because at the time there was many judizer who never accepted this principle. Who nitpick in order to make points!
Do not discredited the other prophets to accept Paul they are all inspired in the same spirit in the same wisdom, one building upon the other!
You where baptized in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit not Paul, know that! One can not contradict the other, each has a part to tell or do or be an example of!
Just because the law is not of faith!
That's what the ramification of the law not being of faith is!
What if God was in between the two!
Law/word comes from God
Faith comes form God
Each has its purpose
You contradict yourself once again. Here you say you follow not the laws, but God, and yet up above you say "Follow God = Follow Gods .. (Laws)".
Hardly,
"Laws are not of faith?
this explains this
Laws with out faith = empty
"Laws are not of faith"
Does not explain this
We follow God who tells us to follow the laws
Law are not of faith
You keep on thinking that then anything to do with the law can not come of faith, but in order to believe that you would have to ignore all the lives of every single bible writer and you would have to ignore most of the rest of Pauls letters, and certainly not statements!
Remember: Pauls gift was wisdom not speech he says it himself
... grammatical property of the verb "to be", which does not take an object, but a complement.
If we say "God is love", we mean "love is what God is". But it is easy to misrender it and think it to mean "God is what love is", for "is " is like "=".
So too with God and the law.
Of course God is love, I have not misreadered it;
What you seem to miss, is I am not saying Law is need for salvation, no matter how many times I say it?
The point of the law: the wisdom on how to live a life in God, or as he would live it!
That is how law cannot be law but still a commandment!
Thank you,
God Bless,
Datsar