Recent content by WrongClub_Lucius

Hopefully we all have the best intentions, and I thank you for this comment above. It leads me to the next key point! All of Western thought is dominated by "reductionist" methodology. It is an accompanying idea of materialism (i.e. the philosophy of) and the scientific method. This belief...

It all seems the same to me--Jesus suffered and died equally as much, whether or not we say it was a punishment or something else. The various atonement theories all have the same problem--they lack an antagonist! Because they lack an antagonist, they become circular, and they try to create...

1) You say, "Satan has no right to demand anything." What is your validation for this statement? This is a very broad statement that requires support if it is going to be the basis for an argument! Your statement is the idea I've seen attributed to Anselm of Canterbury, and I find it...

Okay, but I'm not Orthodox. I'm not talking about Orthodoxy! ----Nobody believes that Jesus and God have "opposing purposes"--Jesus died at the father's bidding. Jesus begged to be spared, but then he said, "Not my will, but yours be done." Jesus isn't scheming and conniving to trick God...

I want to have a productive discussion, and your response doesn't do a good job explaining your position. What is your point? The Bible passages you quote don't speak for themselves. Besides, do you think I haven't read them before? It is no revelation! If it is so important to say penal...

Huh??? (What is the phonetic spelling of Scooby Doo's vocalization when he's just seen a ghost?) How about this: Penalty + Substitution + Atonement "Penal Substitution" and "Substutionary Atonement" are the same concept. Maybe there is an arguement that these terms are used in different...

My point of view is to understand in the way I would understand how a machine works. It is one thing to say that the wheels are spinning and the linkages are moving back and forth. But it is quite another thing to say which wheel and pulley is linked to which shaft and lever, and to explain...

Unless there is a text that pre-dates the adoption of penal substitution, which came in at around 1000AD, I doubt there will be a fair representation of the idea. I see the case for the ransom part, but references I have found to the theory are almost always refutations. And the biggest...

The Garden is about choosing allegiance. There were two trees--one for God and one for Satan. And both God and Satan talked to Adam and Eve about which tree they should or should not eat from. The inclusion of two things in a story always represents a choice, and the conversation about...

It is well know within the field of psychology that people are very bad at being truly objective. Our perception is influenced by all sorts of things, and because of the way our minds work, it is very hard to discover our own limitations and preconceptions. Culture has a huge impact on our...

Please tell me which points are not facts? It's easy--hit reply to the post, then bold or highlight the ones you want to draw attention to. I would hate to think this is a pre-emptive defense. .

I have to call BS. I don't like to start out like this, but you are forcing my hand. Here is a verse that seems to squarely contradict your first paragraph: "I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times...

There is some nuance separating "penal colony" from what I have in mind. In the big picture, I see this phsyical reality as the opportunity for Satan to test his accusation. A penal colony, as I understand it, is the place to send the convicted criminal. But in this case, the judgement has...

oops...

To paraphrase, it seems you are saying that God wants or needs us to have knowledge/ maturity/ wisdom? God does tell us to pursue wisdom and to standing up to injustice and all the rest, so there really is no doubt that God wants us to be strong and mature. So the next question: why does God...