Does morality exist without God? Why would it? OR/ Why would it not?

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

Does morality exist without God? Why would it?
OR/
Why would it not?
There is secular morality and there is God's morality.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 56: 8-9


we can treat people who we can see with respect n treat GOD with disarray and

how can we treat each other with no love whom we see daily but loves GOD whom we can not

vice versa ,,,...

 

[Paradoxum]

If there is a reason for why morality is the way it is, that reason will be there whether the is a God or not. If there is no reason, and it is just based on God's commanded, then that is just opinion, and so doesn't matter anyway.

 

[poolerboy0077]

If there is a reason for why morality is the way it is, that reason will be there whether the is a God or not. If there is no reason, and it is just based on God's commanded, then that is just opinion, and so doesn't matter anyway.

Reminds me of the Euthyphro dilemma: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

Either answer should be unsatisfactory to a believer. If the former, one can simply skip the middle man and appeal to that higher morality. If the latter, morality becomes a matter of divine whim, something is simply right or wrong based on God's mood and not grounded on anything more fundamental. The dilemma, however, cannot be ignored.

 

[Paradoxum]

Reminds me of the Euthyphro dilemma: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

Either answer should be unsatisfactory to a believer. If the former, one can simply skip the middle man and appeal to that higher morality. If the latter, morality becomes a matter of divine whim, something is simply right or wrong based on God's mood and not grounded on anything more fundamental. The dilemma, however, cannot be ignored.

As a Christian I thought morality was more than opinion, yet connected to God. I also thought logic was separate from God (the heavy rock problem was nonsense). In my opinion, then and now, was when people say God is above those things, it simply shows they are more obsessed with power and authority, rather than truth and morality.

 

[RealityCheck]

Reminds me of the Euthyphro dilemma: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

Either answer should be unsatisfactory to a believer. If the former, one can simply skip the middle man and appeal to that higher morality. If the latter, morality becomes a matter of divine whim, something is simply right or wrong based on God's mood and not grounded on anything more fundamental. The dilemma, however, cannot be ignored.

And this problem may be highlighted easily. It's been hashed out endlessly on "The Atheist Experience" and numerous other forums.

If god comes to you, points to a 10 year child, and says, "I want you to go kill that child right now," would it be morally correct to do so? One cannot escape this by countering that god would never order anyone to do that - the Bible is rife with god commanding his people to do that, or worse. If you would not do so, even though it was commanded of you, then you are using your own judgment of what is right and wrong, and rejected God's. If you obey God, then you're not being moral - you're merely being obedient.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Nothing would exist without God.

 

[Cearbhall]

There is secular morality and there is God's morality.

Sort of. There's God's morality (keeping in mind that there are many different interpretations of this), and then there's the morality of all the other gods and supernatural beings. In addition, you have the morality of each individual person, which may or may not be influenced by belief in a god.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I view morality as conceptual and nothing more. As such it changes from person to person, situation to situation, and so on. That's all it's ever been and likely ever will be, regardless of any individual's attempts to connect it to something beyond themselves.

 

[poolerboy0077]

Nothing would exist without God.

Presumably God can exist without another creator God to create that God, right? It seems like special pleading to say everything requires a creator (namely, a conscious entity like God) but not God Himself.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Presumably God can exist without another creator God to create that God, right? It seems like special pleading to say everything requires a creator (namely, a conscious entity like God) but not God Himself.

It doesn't just seen like special pleading....

It is.

 

[poolerboy0077]

It doesn't just seen like special pleading....

It is.

Sorry. I get too caught up in E-prime sometimes.

 

[Eudaimonist]

There is secular morality and there is God's morality.

There is human morality, and there is other human morality.

If morality has any prescriptive punch, it does so because of what human beings are.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Strathos]

Hasn't this thread been done before, several times?

 

[variant]

Nothing about morality seems to require a god to exist.

 

[variant]

.

 

[RealityCheck]

Hasn't this thread been done before, several times?

It comes up all the time, because one wannabe apologist after another stumbles across this for this first time from WL Craig or some other such person, thinks it's a brilliant argument that surely no non-believer has heard before, and decides to post it here.

 

[RealityCheck]

In any case, the answer to the OP is:

Morality isn't a "thing" that exists. Morality is a convenient label for our concepts of right vs. wrong behavior. And they are *our* concepts of right and wrong, no matter what theists protest that morality can't be so subjective like that.

Who decides what's right or wrong? We do, as a group, as a society. We generally start - whether consciously and willfully or without even really thinking about it - from very basic axiomatic principles - such as, life is generally preferable to death, pleasure is generally preferable to pain, etc. We add in a very simple empathetic element - would I want what I'm about to do / doing/ have done, done to me? Yes that's the golden rule, which is not particularly unique to Christianity, western religions in general, or any religion at all.

That gives us basic moral principles. Do we want our stuff stolen from us? No. So we don't go around stealing from others. Do we want someone to kill us? No. So we don't go around killing others. We are social creatures that depend on mutual survival for personal survival, we derive personal benefit from mutual benefit. We live then in a society where we mutually understand basic moral principles, and when there is someone that refuses to live by those moral principles, that person is generally labeled "immoral" for whatever reason.

And we do all that without having to refer to a God.

All god does is demand obedience to his rules, he does not demand moral behavior. The god that many Christians believe in is "good and always good no matter what." And that means that God defines what is good - but that's entirely subject to God's whim. Is murder immoral or not? Well it depends - did God tell you to murder? If so, then it must be moral to carry out his command. If not, then no, it's not. Did god tell you to massacre every last man, woman, and child in the town you just conquered, aside from the virgins? If so, then doing so must be perfectly good and moral behavior.

So morality not only can exist without god, it *must* exist without god.

 

[Paradoxum]

Nothing would exist without God.

Why does God exist?

I'd just skip the God step...

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

Does morality exist without God? Why would it?
OR/
Why would it not?
There is secular morality and there is God's morality.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 56: 8-9


we can treat people who we can see with respect n treat GOD with disarray and

how can we treat each other with no love whom we see daily but loves GOD whom we can not

vice versa ,,,...

pray ...

 

[durangodawood]

Human morally has a perfectly good atheistic explanation. Sure, it may be prescribed by divine decree. But if not, there's plenty of social, biological, psychological reasoning to explain it.