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Although I don't believe this apparently scientists believe life formed on its own

partinobodycular

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You want to stay an agnostic, don't you?

It's not really a matter of my 'wanting' to be an agnostic. I simply am what I am. You may be absolutely certain that there's a God, but I'm not.

What's odd, is that I still consider myself to be a Christian. Because there's an ideal hidden deep down beneath all the dogma, all the pretentiousness, and all the judgmentalism that says that this truth... 'that thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself' is an ideal that I do in fact choose to believe in.

For me, both God and Christianity exist in here... :heart: regardless of whether they exist anywhere else. And this is the standard to which I hold everyone... not what it says in your profile, or in your theology, or the lack thereof, but what it says in the way that you treat your fellow man.
 
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Gene2memE

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That molecules ended up hitting each other forming amino acids and biological matter and that by chance Earth just had just the right properties to help harbor life, and that these molecules turned into living things, and eventually just knew how to evolve into more complex sentient beings, like all this happened by mere accident.

There is plenty of evidence that simple chemicals spontaneously form more complicated bonds.

For instance, the teams looking at samples from the Bennu asteroid have found amino acids, nucleobases, ribose, glucose and carboxylic acids.

That would suggest that all of the basic elements needed to form simple self replicators (i.e. 'life') can form on their own. Even in an environment as adverse as an asteroid open to the vacuum of space.

I believe God was involved, he created life.

That's nice that you believe that, but science is about what you can demonstrate and have evidence for. What have you got?

We are sentient because of him, he knew where to put our fingers, our eyes, and how to make our eyes work, and our body digest food, he has made this all possible.

The problem here is that the evidence available lead to the conclusion that all of those things - sight, digestion, the shape of the primate hand - evolved over periods of tens of millions to billions of years and that humans and all other creatures are the result of natural biological processes.

But of course the scientists would say where is our proof for our belief in the existence of God, we point to Jesus and the testimony, however they want undeniable proof and facts. How do we give them that?

Scientists wouldn't say "where is our proof for our belief in the existence of God," for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, the beliefs of any particular individual has no bearing on the validity of an idea in the sciences.
Secondly, scientists would want evidence rather than "proof".

If you want "undeniable proof and facts" here's a suggestion:

Take you belief(s) and use them to make exclusive, novel and useful predictions about life. Then test it and share the finding with the rest of the world. Then make them and test them again, thousands of times daily.

That is, figure out an "if, X, then Y" statement that could only be true if your beliefs about God creating life are accurate. This forecast also cannot include anything that could be forecast from our current understanding of evolution.
 
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stevevw

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Life didn't "emerge."

It was implanted.

Anyone asking for how life got started scientifically is begging to be confused.
Yes I agree life has been introduced by God the creator of life.
 
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BCP1928

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Yes I agree life has been introduced by God the creator of life.
And now science is trying to discovered what that event looked like from our side of things.
 
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stevevw

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And now cience is trying to discovered what that event looked like from our side of things.
Yes thats how science began. To discover how Gods creation worked and was manifested to us.

But it seems the investigation to understand and describe Gods creation has become the creator itself. Gods creation is being used as the creator itself. The nature of Gods creation is itself being made the god so that God can be ommitted.

The strange thing is if God is the creator then this itself tells us that science cannot figure out what created Gods creation because, well its God and not His creation.

Science will have to admit it will never work this out and all its doing is describing Gods supernatural creation up to a certain point within that human made concept of methological naturalism.
 
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BCP1928

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Yes thats how science began. To discover how Gods creation worked and was manifested to us.

But it seems the investigation to understand and describe Gods creation has become the creator itself. Gods creation is being used as the creator itself. The nature of Gods creation is itself being made the god so that God can be ommitted.

The strange thing is if God is the creator then this itself tells us that science cannot figure out what created Gods creation because, well its God and not His creation.

Science will have to admit it will never work this out and all its doing is describing Gods supernatural creation up to a certain point within that human made concept of methological naturalism.
Scientists already have "admitted" this, In fact they insist on in in the face of Christian lies to the contrary.
 
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partinobodycular

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The strange thing is if God is the creator then this itself tells us that science cannot figure out what created Gods creation because, well its God and not His creation.

But if I buy the whole Orthodox Christian story of 'God the creator' then I have to ask myself... why in the heck did God do such a poor job? I mean just think about it, the earth that you and I live on is currently crawling with a 'multitude' of fallen angels and demons who are constantly trying to corrupt our very souls. Thank you God for the 'wonderful' world that you've created for me to live on. :doh:

That seems like a horrible plan to me, and therefore the Orthodox Christian God is somebody that I'm not really willing to accept as a worthy recipient of my undying praise and admiration. Surely that's not an unreasonable position for me to take.
 
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BCP1928

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But if I buy the whole Orthodox Christian story of 'God the creator' then I have to ask myself... why in the heck did God do such a poor job? I mean just think about it, the earth that you and I live on is currently crawling with a 'multitude' of fallen angels and demons who are constantly trying to corrupt our very souls. Thank you God for the 'wonderful' world that you've created for me to live on. :doh:

That seems like a horrible plan to me, and therefore the Orthodox Christian God is somebody that I'm not really willing to accept as a worthy recipient of my undying praise and admiration. Surely that's not an unreasonable position for me to take.
Don't concern yourself. Steve's ideas on the subject are certainly not orthodox.
 
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AV1611VET

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But if I buy the whole Orthodox Christian story of 'God the creator' then I have to ask myself... why in the heck did God do such a poor job? I mean just think about it, the earth that you and I live on is currently crawling with a 'multitude' of fallen angels and demons who are constantly trying to corrupt our very souls. Thank you God for the 'wonderful' world that you've created for me to live on. :doh:

That seems like a horrible plan to me, and therefore the Orthodox Christian God is somebody that I'm not really willing to accept as a worthy recipient of my undying praise and admiration. Surely that's not an unreasonable position for me to take.

God, Who owns and has all the gold and silver and gems in the entire universe at His disposal, is willing to give it all up for something He doesn't have yet.

You.
 
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stevevw

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But if I buy the whole Orthodox Christian story of 'God the creator' then I have to ask myself... why in the heck did God do such a poor job? I mean just think about it, the earth that you and I live on is currently crawling with a 'multitude' of fallen angels and demons who are constantly trying to corrupt our very souls. Thank you God for the 'wonderful' world that you've created for me to live on.
But is not this just your belief itself. You claiming to be God and having all knowledge. Your own fallible little imagination making up stuff according to your experiences, biases and worldview beliefs.

It seems to me you are an observer from the outside looking in and do not even know Gods Word as a believer. Surely this must be tainted compared to those who know God closely.
That seems like a horrible plan to me, and therefore the Orthodox Christian God is somebody that I'm not really willing to accept as a worthy recipient of my undying praise and admiration. Surely that's not an unreasonable position for me to take.
Please refer to above
 
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stevevw

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Scientists already have "admitted" this, In fact they insist on in in the face of Christian lies to the contrary.
Then some have forgotten when they use this to beat down Christian beliefs and God with that very science lol.

Whenever someone demands evidence or otherwise a Christian is deluded and a fool. They are using material science as a belief and not science. You only have to look at threads like this and you will see it everywhere.

Fervent atheists and other materialists saving the deluded Christians with preaching naturalistic beliefs of how there was no need for God lol. Almost like a religion itself.
 
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partinobodycular

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But is not this just your belief itself.

Actually, no. I'm among the vast number of people that think that demons are purely metaphorical at best. But as you say, I'm just an outsider looking in so my opinion is worthless. Which is why I referred to the teachings of more mainstream Christian denominations among whom the belief in demons and their presence here on earth is quite prevalent.

If you have a problem with the teaching you'll have to take it up with them. And unless you're claiming some greater authority on the subject it's to them that I'll have to defer.

So my position holds, what kind of a loving God would place me in a world filled with fallen angels and demons, and then expect me to worship Him for doing so?
 
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stevevw

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Actually, no. I'm among the vast number of people that think that demons are purely metaphorical at best. But as you say, I'm just an outsider looking in so my opinion is worthless. Which is why I referred to the teachings of more mainstream Christian denominations among whom the belief in demons and their presence here on earth is quite prevalent.

If you have a problem with the teaching you'll have to take it up with them. And unless you're claiming some greater authority on the subject it's to them that I'll have to defer.
Ok I get you now. The first thing to say would be that you believe in angels and demons if you think that God put you in such a world. If you don't then whats the problem. Your complaining about something you don't believe. Your acting like its true and you are going to suffer.
So my position holds, what kind of a loving God would place me in a world filled with fallen angels and demons, and then expect me to worship Him for doing so?
The second is if angels and demons are true then your qualifying this from your point of view which is not the same thing and will definitely be misrepresented.

I mean how many versions of angels and demons are there including those besides Christian. If you grant the Christian version then you must grant all the other versions of what angels and demons represent in the world. So which one is true.

This shows that if angels and demons are tru then you are grasping at straws over subjective conceptions of angels and demons and cannot really know which one is a true representation.

I don't think anyone knows. We can have a guess or maybe draw out some truths from the bible or from other beliefs as to what they represent. But I don;t think you have done that.

That would be an effort in itself to go through every version there is and break them down, categorise them, find common themes and what they actually represent. Rather than the misrepresented assumptions that you think Christians mean.

But if you have then thats fair enough. But there would need to be some evidence. Just by the fact that you are not a Christian is one sign that we should be cautious as a non Christian understand this different to a Christian. But even then some Christians disagree. So then the question is which version of Christian meaning are you referring to lol.

Its not that simple.

Another aspect is that by believing those who believe in angels and demons your lending support for the overall truth of angels and demons. It seems there is a natural inclination for humans to believe in gods, the soul and afterlife and angels and demons.

So we could say that the idea of angels and demons may have some truth and the evidence is humans persistent belief and inclination. But as humans we are completely incapable of fully understanding this.

So the concepts we come up with are never a true representation and therefore cannot be relied upon fully. But there may be some aspects we can draw out based on common experiences and beliefs.
 
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BCP1928

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Then some have forgotten when they use this to beat down Christian beliefs and God with that very science lol.
A person who tries to "beat down God with science" can easily be shown to be wrong. Even atheist scientists like Hans have tried to show you that it can't be done. As for Christian beliefs you rarely, if ever, present any, so I don't see what you are complaining about.
Whenever someone demands evidence or otherwise a Christian is deluded and a fool. They are using material science as a belief and not science. You only have to look at threads like this and you will see it everywhere.

Fervent atheists and other materialists saving the deluded Christians with preaching naturalistic beliefs of how there was no need for God lol. Almost like a religion itself.
It's not our fault that you know so little of Christian theology that you think such a thing is even possible. On the contrary, we're 1500 posts into a thread in which you are promoting pagan ideas about "transcendent knowlege" and "mind out of body" that we are trying to talk you out of. You should thank us.
 
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NxNW

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So you abandon 1100+ photos and reported sightings because a few are found to be hoaxes?
None have been found to be authentic. There is a TV series from a few years ago called Drain the Oceans, in which they use sonar and other electronic imaging to investigate shipwrecks, the Bermuda Triangle, and Nessie. They've got a pretty good explanation of the visual phenomenon that people likely saw.
Most only on paper.
Tell that to cancer and transplant patients who survive, or the military who use weapons designed by science. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are pretty impressive results, wouldn't you say? Or multiple trips to the moon? (Oh, wait, you think that's fake).
Then what are these?

1. the Bible
2. time divided into BC & AD
3. organizations such as the Red Cross and Salvation Army
4. hospitals built by Christian organizations
5. Christian artwork, edifices, statuary, and literature
6. IN GOD WE TRUST on our coins
7. UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance
8. the Ten Commandments and other literature displayed in public
9. Christmas & Easter
10. symbols on bumper stickers and flags
11. public debates in the name of Christianity
12. crosses and billboards erected to testify of Jesus Christ
13. two major nations founded on His existence
14. martyrs
15. Christians & Jews
And before you say, "They are cause and effects stemming only from a BELIEF in Christianity,"
That's exactly what they are.
let me ask you this:

Which came first?

Christ or Christianity?
I don't believe Christ ever existed, just as you don't believe Zeus, Ra, or Dionysus or a thousand other gods never existed.
 
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AV1611VET

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You don't know me very well, do you, NxNW?

Tell that to cancer and transplant patients who survive, or the military who use weapons designed by science.

There's a good side to science, and there's a bad side to science.

I lift the good side up to a Higher Standard that no unbeliever can do; and I abase the bad side down to a level that no unbeliever can.

It's that simple.

Science is a gift from God.

Given to us in stages to make our lives better.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are pretty impressive results, wouldn't you say?

I would indeed.

Or multiple trips to the moon?

Waste of time and money, in my opinion.

(Oh, wait, you think that's fake).

That's why I said you don't know me.

The trips to the moon and back were not fake.

You must have me mixed up with someone else.

That's exactly what they are.

Cause-and-effect ... yes indeed.

Footprints in the sand.

I don't believe Christ ever existed,

Interesting, in light of ...

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically.

SOURCE

... just as you don't believe Zeus, Ra, or Dionysus or a thousand other gods never existed.

I don't?

What's this then?

You do know I think Zeus is real, do you not?

You don't know me very well, do you?
 
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