Father, sons drowned teen daughter over her ‘Western lifestyle’

[Valletta]

Not so long the very christian nation of Ireland basically enslaved women who got pregnant out of wedlock and let their children die from neglect.

Less enlightened societies tend to treat their vulnerable members badly. Nothing new.

Please no hoaxes.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Okay, so if that stuff was going on at that level in Arkansas (it's obviously not, a woman or gay person wanting better treatment would obviously be better off in Little Rock than they would in Tehran), you're saying you wouldn't have any issues with frankly and bluntly identifying the cause and effect.

I don't see how "it would be worse in Tehran" is an appropriate response to your hypothetical about Arkansas.

So why do so many have an issue issuing the same blunt critiques against Islam and instead opt to shill for them and offer "other religions have extremists too" defenses to deflect?

Obviously there's the cynical theory, which is "if a religion is primarily comprised of people with more pigment, we need to defend them against bad racist white people at all costs", but to give the benefit of the doubt, do you have any alternate theories on that?

Your analogy is a perfect match, but you don't seem to get why. Even if the local offenders are invoking their religion for their atrocities, that it doesn't occur throughout the religion indicates that it is not strictly a problem with the religion. (OTOH, there is a strong correlation between the SBC and slavery and segregation. It's "weird" how they happen in the same places...)

Sam Harris said it pretty well "My fellow liberals have failed us on the topic of theocracy, they'll only criticize white theocracy. They'll still get agitated about an abortion clinic bombing that happened in 1994, but when you point out that the Muslim world is lacking even more in this area, they'll accuse you of Islamaphobia"

I think Islamophobia is a silly term for bigotry. But talking about Islamic theocracy when the subject is Christian theocracy (not sure what "white theocracy" is) is ... what-about-ism. (or vice versa)

 

[iluvatar5150]

And why does our society have have the kind of provisions that hold guys like that "in check"?

Because we have a bunch of rules built on centuries of mostly secular philosophy. It wasn't Christianity that spawned our pluralism and egalitarianism.

I'll argue that there are not "hoards of Christians in the US that praise strict rules like that" in comparison to our overall population size.

The fact that one has to find a random congressmen from Michigan that most people literally have never heard of to invoke a myth of equivalency is telling.

So because 1 congressmen out of 435 supports a particularly draconian version of LGBTQ discrimination means that "it's a wash"?

Politely: You have no idea what you're talking about.

I seem to recall having had similar arguments with you in the past (though it's possible I'm mixing you up with a different post who hasn't been around in a while). You didn't grow up fundamentalist. You didn't live in an illiberal religious environment. I did. And these folks are way more numerous and way more crazy than you think. Until recently, they weren't making a lot of headlines, but they're starting to now that these folks have essentially taken over the Republican party. It's similar to various online subcultures, where if you're not in them, you're unlikely to ever hear about them. How many people knew what qanon was before the pizzagate shooting? How many had ever heard the term "groyper" prior to Charlie Kirk's murder?

Likewise, how many people had heard of Dominionism or the New Apostolic Reformation prior to Jan 6?

If you had a scenario where a third of republican congressmen, a quarter of the senate republicans, most of the SCOTUS, and the president all praised Uganda's treatment of gays and "sexual infidels", then you may have something remotely approaching what's the "status quo" in Islamic theocracies (to enough of a degree that it's even worth bringing up as a point of comparison)

I didn't say we're equal in number. I said that there are a lot of Christians who would go that way if given the chance. And there are. Maybe they wouldn't jump to executing gays right away, but give it a couple generations and who knows.

Heck, how many conservative states have tried to make it easier to run over protestors? Last I recall, it was several. Greg Abbot couldn't wait to pardon that guy in Austin who blew a red light, drove into a crowd, and essentially instigated his own "self-defense" encounter. A current, active staff member of this board has argued to me that James Alex Fields was defending himself when he ran down Heather Heyer in Charlottesville. How far down the slippery slope is it from turning a blind eye towards political violence to executing people you believe are committing abominations against God? It doesn't look that far from where I sit.

Why can we not acknowledge that and just admit that certain cultures are superior to others?

Because I don't think the cultures you're putting at the top are as virtuous as you think they are. They're just as power-hungry and hypocritical as anybody else. Put them in a failed state with a bunch of guns and in a couple decades, they'll turn out just as bad.

To be clear - I'm not excusing anything that happens in Muslim countries. The context here was not a general survey of the qualities of various world cultures; it was the OP's constant drum beating about how bad and evil Muslims are. I engaged in whataboutism because I wanted to push back specifically against his ongoing campaign of propagating of anti-Muslim bigotry.

 

[Nithavela]

Please no hoaxes.

I don't know if you're thinking of Canada and the supposed mass graves of native american babies, but the atrocities of the mother and baby homes in Ireland are well documented and acknowledged by the protestant church of ireland and the irish government.

And my point is not that the christian religion caused this alone. This was a phenomenon specific to ireland of that time period. The point is that culture can shape actions against vulnerable people, not just religion.

 

[Hans Blaster]

A fabulous post. I didn't grow up in the space that much of this stuff arose, but I have been following the far right in the US since the 2016 election. You conclusion is absolutely correct. I offer one small correction.

And these folks are way more numerous and way more crazy than you think. Until recently, they weren't making a lot of headlines, but they're starting to now that these folks have essentially taken over the Republican party.

The "normie" conservative's last realistic chance to wrest the GOP back from Trump/MAGA was the release of the Access Hollywood tape and the week that followed. As for the party itself, it was largely captured by the MAGA movement by the end of Trump's first term.

It's similar to various online subcultures, where if you're not in them, you're unlikely to ever hear about them. How many people knew what qanon was before the pizzagate shooting?

Qanon is a successor to pizzagate. It starts about a year after the Comet Pizza shooting when an anonymous 4chan posting from a "Q clearance patriot" promised a resolution to the fevered conspiracies of the pizzagate community.

How many had ever heard the term "groyper" prior to Charlie Kirk's murder?

Spotted their flags live in the crowd attacking the Capitol.

Likewise, how many people had heard of Dominionism or the New Apostolic Reformation prior to Jan 6?

And the Boogaloo bois, 3%ers, Oathkeepers, proud boys, New Tang Dynasty, Rod of Iron, 1st amendment preatorians, jericho march, et al.

Because I don't think the cultures you're putting at the top are as virtuous as you think they are. They're just as power-hungry and hypocritical as anybody else. Put them in a failed state with a bunch of guns and in a couple decades, they'll turn out just as bad.

exactly

 

[Valletta]

I don't know if you're thinking of Canada and the supposed mass graves of native american babies, but the atrocities of the mother and baby homes in Ireland are well documented and acknowledged by the protestant church of ireland and the irish government.

You're mistaken. The mass grave story of 400 or so and the septic tank story were hoaxes. Realize that both Al Jazeera and the New York Times have an anti-Judeo/Christian bent and sadly are not above publishing fake religious tales.

 

[Nithavela]

You're mistaken. The mass grave story of 400 or so and the septic tank story were hoaxes. Realize that both Al Jazeera and the New York Times have an anti-Judeo/Christian bent and sadly are not above publishing fake religious tales.

I assume you have a reason for me to believe that except genetic fallacies?

 

[Valletta]

I assume you have a reason for me to believe that except genetic fallacies?

The stories were debunked long ago.

 

[Nithavela]

The stories were debunked long ago.

Nothing then. Thought so.

Moving on.