Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[Dan1988]

There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm not saying that it can be both, but that it can be neither, or maybe, better, that there may be a perspective/understanding that encompasses both.

Your descriptions are dependent on some form of time passage. And we don't know how to think otherwise, so I think that is partly why the terminology of Scripture. But when one looks at the attributes of God —particularly his singularity of purpose —his Aseity— and his Omnipotence and Sovereignty, we have to conclude that time is only one of his "inventions", one of his tools, and not necessarily something that governs the life/death to come, which is his economy —his realm.

When I consider that Christ took our punishment for us, I have to conclude that he suffered EVERYTHING we would have, not just temporal torment and death, but the torments of hell for every one of us who have our sin forgiven. He 'survived' it because he is God. "Hell could not hold him". I can't say that my conclusions are accurate —much less my descriptions— but I think there is something to them: That what happened to him, and to everyone of the reprobate, is a matter of what we in this life might term, "INTENSITY", where time passage does not apply. In this, complete destruction is going to happen, and is never over with (because there is no time passage), yet not ongoing in the sense that "time" would imply. Their hopelessness, anguish, despair, pain, regret, anger, hatred for God all "at once" knowing what it is to have lost all virtue with which we once knew them here, lost it because God has abandoned them.

 

[Dan1988]

I'm not saying that it can be both, but that it can be neither, or maybe, better, that there may be a perspective/understanding that encompasses both.

Your descriptions are dependent on some form of time passage. And we don't know how to think otherwise, so I think that is partly why the terminology of Scripture. But when one looks at the attributes of God —particularly his singularity of purpose —his Aseity— and his Omnipotence and Sovereignty, we have to conclude that time is only one of his "inventions", one of his tools, and not necessarily something that governs the life/death to come, which is his economy —his realm.

When I consider that Christ took our punishment for us, I have to conclude that he suffered EVERYTHING we would have, not just temporal torment and death, but the torments of hell for every one of us who have our sin forgiven. He 'survived' it because he is God. "Hell could not hold him". I can't say that my conclusions are accurate —much less my descriptions— but I think there is something to them: That what happened to him, and to everyone of the reprobate, is a matter of what we in this life might term, "INTENSITY", where time passage does not apply. In this, complete destruction is going to happen, and is never over with (because there is no time passage), yet not ongoing in the sense that "time" would imply. Their hopelessness, anguish, despair, pain, regret, anger, hatred for God all "at once" knowing what it is to have lost all virtue with which we once knew them here, lost it because God has abandoned them.

If we consider the fact that God is outside of time, and He is not bound or governed by any laws of nature as His creation is. Then if we consider that God created time, at the same time that He created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning", this is when time began. And God has appointed an end to time itself as well.

I'm not suggesting that God had a begging, we know He is outside of time and He is not a part of anything He created, He is separate to His creation so He is nothing like we are.

The reason, those who are cast into hell will be tormented in fire for ever and ever, is because they continue to sin while they are being punished and that means they are heaping more coals of fire on their head.

They actually blaspheme the name of God while He punishes them, just like we hear unbelievers blaspheme the name of God when they burn themselves with a hot coffee or hit their thumb with a hammer, but the pain is much worse in hell so their blasphemy is much worse, and they never reach a time when they find the peace in their heart to repent.

It's actually impossible to find peace in your heart which would allow you to repent while you are in excruciating pain, so all they can do is scream out blasphemies against God, and that keeps their condemnation building up perpetually forevermore.

Time will cease to exist, when Christ returns to judge the world. All of mankind will step into eternity, and time won't exist anymore. Those who abide in the spiritual realm (the Angels) are already outside of time.

At the end of this age, Christ will return, the dead will be resurrected, the final judgment will occur, and the eternal state (new heaven and new earth) will begin immediately.

Matthew 24:35: Jesus states, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away".

2 Peter 3:10: This verse describes the "day of the Lord" when "the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed".

Revelation 21:1, 4: John's vision describes a definitive end to the current order: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away... He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away".

 

[Maria Billingsley]

There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

Do we take His parable of Lazarus and the rich man literal or symbolic? Parables are stories designed to conceal and reveal the truths of the Kingdom of God, making the hearer work to extract the spiritual meaning, they rely on symbolism. However, in some cases, like the good Samaritan and Lazarus and the rich man, there is nothing to extract and contemplate, the spiritual meaning is provided in the text. Afterall, we take the word " paradise " literal as a glimpse of the afterlife for those who are in Him. So what of those who are not?

Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

I'm not even worried about this particular issue of "either/or." This is a non-issue for me because either way, it's bad news for the unrepentant.

Have a nice day!

 

[BobRyan]

There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

Actually that would be the minority view not the majority. The majority of Christians view hell as infinite torment. A forever existing of maximum suffering in fire where the fire is some sort of supernatural "not like real fire in this life" process.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Matt 25:41 NASB 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Pet 2:6 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

No matter what someone wishes to believe. The Bible is true. In all its statements on the subject

1. God is a "consuming fire" in Heb 12 rather than a fire "that does not consume'
2. John does not use the term hell for burning but rather the lake of fire. the apostle John never uses the term hell to mean place of torment or fire. Rather he uses the term "lake of fire" that "devours them" vs 9 " fire came down from heaven and devoured them." NASB
3. Luke 12 says each person is punished according to deeds, some receive much punishment and some less. Very different from "infinite punishment for all"
4. Ezek 28 says that Satan "will be turned to ashes on the Earth, You will cease to be forever"


18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

5. Matt 10:28 says God totally destroys both soul and body in hell as compared to the first death where men can "kill the body but not the soul"

6. Not one text says the wicked have eternal life. In Ezek 18 the wicked die and the righteous do not die.

7. In Rev 20 the wicked are "consumed" by fire that comes from God

8. Malachi 4:3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

 

[Matt5]

The torment part is real but limited. It is the time period right after nuclear war. People will start wailing and gnashing of teeth days before death comes. Hundreds of millions of people will be in agony. But the time period is limited.

This kind of hell is only associated with the return of Jesus.

Other than torment, hell is just death (sleep.)

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The torment part is real but limited. It is the time period right after nuclear war. People will start wailing and gnashing of teeth days before death comes. Hundreds of millions of people will be in agony. But the time period is limited.

This kind of hell is only associated with the return of Jesus.

Other than torment, hell is just death (sleep.)

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. (2 Th 1:9–10)​

"Everlasting destruction" sounds long-lasting to me.

 

[Hentenza]

No matter what someone wishes to believe. The Bible is true. In all its statements on the subject

1. God is a "consuming fire" in Heb 12 rather than a fire "that does not consume'
2. John does not use the term hell for burning but rather the lake of fire. the apostle John never uses the term hell to mean place of torment or fire. Rather he uses the term "lake of fire"
3. Luke 12 says each person is punished according to deeds, some receive much punishment and some less. Very different from "infinite punishment for all"
4. Ezek 28 says that Satan "will be turned to ashes on the Earth, You will cease to be forever"


18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

5. Matt 10:28 says God totally destroys both soul and body in hell

6. Not one text says the wicked have eternal life. In Ezek 18 the wicked die and the righteous do not die.

7. In Rev 20 the wicked are "consumed" by fire that comes from God

8. Malachi 4:3 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Both the poor man and the rich man are very much alive. The rich man is suffering in hell.

The spirits in prison that Jesus made the proclamation during the time between the crucifixion and resurrection are alive not annihilated.

You are using symbolic language literally which is where you run into error.

 

[Matt5]

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. (2 Th 1:9–10)​

"Everlasting destruction" sounds long-lasting to me.

I just watched a video on everlasting destruction. Basically, it means total destruction, not destruction (torment) that lasts forever. But I guess that is his opinion in the video below. I agree with it.

Does Eternal Fire Mean Eternal Torment? - YouTube [Length: 3:43min]

 

[eleos1954]

There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

Gos is NOT a tortuous monster .... full stop. To even entertain the idea that God has a eternal torture chamber is totally non-sense.

Jesus himself describes death as a "sleep", why? because one day ALL will be resurrected from the first death.

It's ultimately about eternal life or eternal death. Death is non existence and we shouldn't be confused about it. The first death is temporary the 2nd death is for eternity.

 

[BobRyan]

Both the poor man and the rich man are very much alive. The rich man is suffering in hell.

parables are funny that way.

Luke 16 is great example of no one praying to God and asking Him for anything at all. A wonderful parable making the point (that almost no one who references Luke 16 chooses to mention) "IF they do not listen to Moses, neither will they listen if one rises from the dead".

The spirits in prison that Jesus made the proclamation during the time between the crucifixion and resurrection are alive not annihilated.

Again we read the full text, the spirits in prison, is limited in the text to those that were alive during the time the Ark was being built, and Noah was preaching.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually that would be the minority view not the majority. The majority of Christians view hell as infinite torment. A forever existing of maximum suffering in fire where the fire is some sort of supernatural "not like real fire in this life" process.




Matt 25:41 NASB 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Pet 2:6 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter


No matter what someone wishes to believe. The Bible is true. In all its statements on the subject

1. God is a "consuming fire" in Heb 12 rather than a fire "that does not consume'
2. John does not use the term hell for burning but rather the lake of fire. the apostle John never uses the term hell to mean place of torment or fire. Rather he uses the term "lake of fire" that "devours them" vs 9 " fire came down from heaven and devoured them." NASB
3. Luke 12 says each person is punished according to deeds, some receive much punishment and some less. Very different from "infinite punishment for all"
4. Ezek 28 says that Satan "will be turned to ashes on the Earth, You will cease to be forever"


18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

5. Matt 10:28 says God totally destroys both soul and body in hell as compared to the first death where men can "kill the body but not the soul"

6. Not one text says the wicked have eternal life. In Ezek 18 the wicked die and the righteous do not die.

7. In Rev 20 the wicked are "consumed" by fire that comes from God

8. Malachi 4:3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

You are using symbolic language literally which is where you run into error.

Actually I am merely quoting the texts that you seem to find inconvenient.

My statement was that we do not get to the meaning of the Bible teaching on this topic by ignoring every detail in the texts that speak to the topic.


"the wages of sin is death" not eternal life , see Rom 8.

"the soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4. That is speaking of the second death, seen in Rev 20. In Ezek 18 only the wicked die. That is not the case with the first death, the one that all die. It is only true of the second death , mentioned in Rev 21.

 

[Hentenza]

Actually I am merely quoting the texts that you seem to find inconvenient.

My statement was that we do not get to the meaning of the Bible teaching on this topic by ignoring every detail in the texts that speak to the topic.


"the wages of sin is death" not eternal life , see Rom 8.

"the soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4. That is speaking of the second death, seen in Rev 20. In Ezek 18 only the wicked die. That is not the case with the first death, the one that all die. It is only true of the second death , mentioned in Rev 21.

Funny that you don’t quote the verses that disagree with your doctrine. Let’s start with the obvious ones and work our way to others.

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭41‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

bible.com

Is the fire eternal but the people annihilated? So why the eternal fire?

 

[Hentenza]

parables are funny that way.

Luke 16 is great example of no one praying to God and asking Him for anything at all. A wonderful parable making the point (that almost no one who references Luke 16 chooses to mention) "IF they do not listen to Moses, neither will they listen if one rises from the dead".

Again we read the full text, the spirits in prison, is limited in the text to those that were alive during the time the Ark was being built, and Noah was preaching.

Parable? I thought you guys read the Bible literally when it comes to defending the sabbath but now symbolically for annihilation? That’s consistent.

This is not a parable and it does not state as such. In fact the story starts with “Now there was a rich man” so there was one because Jesus said so. Jesus even describes what he wears. And there was a poor man because Jesus said so. And the poor man even had a name, Lazarus. So this is an actual poor man named Lazarus. It’s not a figment of Jesus imagination but an actual person with a name.

““Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, enjoying himself in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 16:19-20 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, enjoying himself in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020)

“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, enjoying himself in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores

bible.com

I’ll start here. We’ll continue with the rest of the story ones we get the obvious out of the way.

 

[BobRyan]

Funny that you don’t quote the verses that disagree with your doctrine.

1. I am happy for anyone to quote whatever texts they like
2. I notice you objected to the texts I quote right out of the gate as though the mere quote of the text was a problem for your view.

I find that "instructive"

Let’s start with the obvious ones and work our way to others.

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;”Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭41‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hence my quote of the "eternal fire text in Matt 25 in my earlier post.

Matt 25:41 NASB 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Pet 2:6 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter


No matter what someone wishes to believe. The Bible is true. In all its statements on the subject

yep there it was with the added "eternal fire" texts that it seems you are still trying to avoid, even though they fit with Matt 25 perfect.

Is the fire eternal but the people annihilated? So why the eternal fire?

God is eternal and he has destroyed a number of people, animals and other things according to the Bible, without having to explain Himself and without having to first turn everything and everyone that he destroyed into an immortal. I am pretty sure both you and I would agree on that joint.

In short, I find your logic illusive just then.

 

[Hentenza]

1. I am happy for anyone to quote whatever texts they like
2. I notice you objected to the texts I quote right out of the gate as though the mere quote of the text was a problem for your view.

I find that "instructive"


Hence my quote of the "eternal fire text in Matt 25 in my earlier post.


yep there it was with the added "eternal fire" texts that it seems you are still trying to avoid, even though they fit with Matt 25 perfect.
How "instructive" for the reader

Matt. 25 is not talking about Sodom and Gomorrah hence the reason why I started with this verse. Your association between this verse and the verses in Jude and 2 Peter is pure speculation.

Secondly, the material burns and turns to ashes but not the immaterial. The same as our bodies decompose in the ground but our souls do not.

 

[BobRyan]

Both the poor man and the rich man are very much alive. The rich man is suffering in hell.

parables are funny that way.

Luke 16 is great example of no one praying to God and asking Him for anything at all. A wonderful parable making the point (that almost no one who references Luke 16 chooses to mention) "IF they do not listen to Moses, neither will they listen if one rises from the dead".

Parable? I thought you guys read the Bible literally when it comes to defending the sabbath

Actually we would say everything is literal in the Bible unless an obvious symbol or parable is being used. IN the case of the 10 commandments and the legal code it is written in.... pretty much all scholarship admits that legal code is not written in the form of parable , myth, fiction.

So then the Luke 16 parable where no one prays to God at all when seeking a way to get the rich man out of hell, not only a "parable" in my POV but a great many Christians in all denominations view it the same way. So then R.C. Sproul, , Albert Barnes, Burton Coffman, Matthew Henry ... These are your own "eternal fire" scholars , all of them immortal soul affirming, and all of them admitting that Luke 16 is a blatantly obvious parable.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt. 25 is not talking about Sodom and Gomorrah

It is talking about the destruction of eternal fire, the fate of those that are to be subjected to the "punishment of eternal fire" as Jude also points out. hence the reason why I started with this verse, I use actual exegesis to show how this concept is more fully addressed by related texts of scripture. Jude explicitly links the two events together.

So unless you are determined to get out the scissors when reading Jude as he connects Sodom and Gomorrah to the future destruction of the wicked, you have a problem there and simply telling us "not to look" is not a very compelling solution

Your association between this verse and the verses in Jude and 2 Peter is pure speculation.

hint. IT is called exegesis. We take a single topic and allow scripture to inform us on that topic even if it is not in the same chapter.

 

[BobRyan]

Secondly, the material burns and turns to ashes but not the immaterial. The same as our bodies decompose in the ground but our souls do not.

Matt 10:28 says that what you just described is accurate for the first death but is totally off in the case of the second death where "Both body AND SOUL" are destroyed in fiery hell. Your statement above would delete Matt 10:28 and make the first and second death , the same,

Instead of that Jesus Himself contrasts the first and second death using those terms as pointed out in my prior post here.

Matt 10:
"28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; (first death)
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (called second death in Rev 20).