Father, sons drowned teen daughter over her ‘Western lifestyle’

[Hans Blaster]

Are we noticing any themes or patterns here?

They were all invaded by Alexander the Great?

 

[Nithavela]

Are we noticing any themes or patterns here?

The countries are all in this region of the world, which points to overarching cultural reasons instead of religion. North africa and large parts of southeast asia are majority muslim, but they are not on that list.

For example, Indonesia is VERY muslim. 87% of the population are muslims. If you go by total population, it's the country with the most muslims. And yet they have no culture of honor killings, with the first recorded honor killing in 2020.

Indonesia Records Its First Honor Killing

A schoolgirl was reportedly hacked to death after admitting to dating

thediplomat.com

 

[BCP1928]

Not being 100% restricted to a certain ideology isn't the same thing as not being related to something about that ideology.


AI disclaimer (with sources linked, since it saves me some typing)

Countries with Highest Documented Rates:​

1. Pakistan - Consistently reports around 1,000 cases annually NCBI, with the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan reporting 1,100 cases in 2015 Sage Journals. Pakistan is widely believed to have the highest absolute numbers globally.

2. India - Records approximately 1,000 honor killings per year Hbv-awareness, with nearly one-third of worldwide honor killings occurring in India and Pakistan combined Asu.

3. Iran - Reported 8,000 honor killings between 2010 and 2014 Sage Journals, with academic estimates citing 375-450 such killings occurring annually GOV.UK.

4. Turkey - The Council of Europe estimated over 200 women were murdered in honor killings in 2007 Wikipedia, with reports of one honor killing per week in Istanbul alone.

5. Syria - Some estimates suggest more than 200 honor killings occur annually Wikipedia, with increases reported during the civil war.

6. Jordan - An average of 23 women are killed annually for honor, representing approximately 30% of total murders Sage Journals.

7. Iraq/Iraqi Kurdistan - The Free Women's Organization of Kurdistan reported 6,082 women killed or forced to commit suicide in 2015 Wikipedia, with many attributed to honor-related violence.

8. Afghanistan - 243 cases were registered between March 2011 and April 2013 according to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission NCBI.

9. Yemen - 400 women were victims of honor killings in 1997 NCBI.

10. Egypt - 52 cases were reported in 1997 NCBI.



Are we noticing any themes or patterns here?



If we were looking at the aspects surrounding negative attitudes toward contraception access, comprehensive sex ed, or stem cell research in the US...

Me being able to find a relatively tiny handful of liberal non-Christians who oppose those things wouldn't negate the reality that those attitudes are predominately found within (and outgrowths of) conservative Christian culture.

That would be a better analogy if there were more than a tiny handful, but I get your point.

The question is, are Muslim immigrants coming here to impose that aspect their culture on us or to escape it?

Why must we assume the former?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Are we noticing any themes or patterns here?

Is it that they are all Muslim countries? Nope. India isn't. Perhaps the patern isnt the country of origin, but the people.

 

[iluvatar5150]

It's okay. Everytime you guys derail one of my threads, I'll just create another one.

I asked what the topic was. I was sincere in asking. I generally try to be pretty accomodating when folks chide me to get back on topic.

So I ask again: what is the topic?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That would be a better analogy if there were more than a tiny handful, but I get your point.

The question is, are Muslim immigrants coming here to impose that aspect their culture on us or to escape it?

Why must we assume the former?

I think it varies by country of destination...

For instance, after the incident involving the Danish Cartoonist, in a survey of British Muslims, some 60% said they thought the cartoonist should be prosecuted. That doesn't sound like the kind of results that would be indicative of escaping the dogmatic and draconian aspects of Islamism...at least not completely.

It could very well be a combination of both.

There probably are many folks who want to escape the aspects that would negatively impact them personally, but still agree with other aspects that impact other people.

I think Sam Harris said it pretty well:
"There are Muslims who can look at a bus bombing and rightfully think it's horrific and don't want to be a part of that, and can honestly look at what ISIS is doing and say that doesn't represent me and want to distance themselves from it -- but still hold many of the same troubling views to a lesser extreme, that still keeps women immiserated in that culture"

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Social conservatives when faced with more extreme social conservatism:

 

[durangodawood]

Is this the cultural enlightenment and enrichment people keep telling us?

No. This is just about one family and not larger cultural issues, apparently.

(But Im open to being corrected on this).

 

[BCP1928]

I think it varies by country of destination...

For instance, after the incident involving the Danish Cartoonist, in a survey of British Muslims, some 60% said they thought the cartoonist should be prosecuted. That doesn't sound like the kind of results that would be indicative of escaping the dogmatic and draconian aspects of Islamism...at least not completely.

It could very well be a combination of both.

There probably are many folks who want to escape the aspects that would negatively impact them personally, but still agree with other aspects that impact other people.

I think Sam Harris said it pretty well:
"There are Muslims who can look at a bus bombing and rightfully think it's horrific and don't want to be a part of that, and can honestly look at what ISIS is doing and say that doesn't represent me and want to distance themselves from it -- but still hold many of the same troubling views to a lesser extreme, that still keeps women immiserated in that culture"

Sounds like home.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

People that break the law should be punished. Also, the reason religion should not be law.

 

[wing2000]

People that break the law should be punished. Also, the reason religion should not be law.

The sons are being punished by the Dutch justice system.

The Public Prosecution Service demanded prison sentences Friday of up to 25 years for three suspects in the murder of 18-year-old Ryan Al Najjar, including her father, Khaled Al N., 53, and her brothers, Mohamed and Muhanad, 23 and 25. Khaled, who remains a fugitive in Syria, will be tried in absentia.

Prosecutors said Khaled orchestrated the killing, directing and instructing his sons. “He fled to Syria immediately after the murder and left his sons to take the blame. Cowardly,” the prosecutor said. “Khaled has completely destroyed his family.” The sons each face 20-year sentence demands.

“Honor killings are completely unacceptable,” the prosecutor said. “This is a form of femicide.”

Prosecutors seek 25 years for father, 20 years for sons in teen daughter’s honor killing

The Public Prosecution Service demanded prison sentences Friday of up to 25 years for three suspects in the murder of 18-year-old Ryan Al Najjar, including her father, Khaled Al N., 53, and her brothers, Mohamed and Muhanad, 23 and 25. Khaled, who remains a fugitive in Syria, will be tried in...

nltimes.nl

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The countries are all in this region of the world, which points to overarching cultural reasons instead of religion. North africa and large parts of southeast asia are majority muslim, but they are not on that list.

View attachment 373866
For example, Indonesia is VERY muslim. 87% of the population are muslims. If you go by total population, it's the country with the most muslims. And yet they have no culture of honor killings, with the first recorded honor killing in 2020.

Indonesia Records Its First Honor Killing

A schoolgirl was reportedly hacked to death after admitting to dating

thediplomat.com

Are we denying that the prevailing religion of the region shapes culture more times than not?

You can always find some outliers. But when 9 out of the top 10 have a glaring similarity (and that similarity involves a doctrine, from which, you can draw a straight line to the behavior in question) it's not unreasonable for one to conclude that it's a factor.

 

[BCP1928]

Are we denying that the prevailing religion of the region shapes culture more times than not?

You can always find some outliers. But when 9 out of the top 10 have a glaring similarity (and that similarity involves a doctrine, from which, you can draw a straight line to the behavior in question) it's not unreasonable for one to conclude that it's a factor.

Still when you look at that map it is hard to imagine that honor killing is a fundamental tenet of Islam.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Are we denying that the prevailing religion of the region shapes culture more times than not?

eh...

The trappings of religion? Maybe? True religious doctrine? eh, not really.

Western culture is shaped more by the enlightenment and other secular philosophies (including capitalism) than it is by the Christianity it likes to tell itself that it believes. That region has always been predominantly Muslim, but it's only more recently that religious violence has become a thing.

What you're doing confusing is religion with fundamentalism. It's fundamentalism (of any sort, not just religious), not religion, that gets you this violent, illiberal authoritarianism.

 

[JosephZ]

Are we denying that the prevailing religion of the region shapes culture more times than not?

Honor killing pre-dates Islam.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Still when you look at that map it is hard to imagine that honor killing is a fundamental tenet of Islam.

It stems from their interpretations of "Zina" laws

Zina - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nithavela]

Are we denying that the prevailing religion of the region shapes culture more times than not?

I don't know what you are denying, but I would say that religion and culture shape each other. It's not like religion is completely static in it's expression and only influences culture with no exchange in the other direction. And often enough religion just gives rationalisation for what culture prescribes.

You can always find some outliers. But when 9 out of the top 10 have a glaring similarity (and that similarity involves a doctrine, from which, you can draw a straight line to the behavior in question) it's not unreasonable for one to conclude that it's a factor.

Then why doesn't that same doctrine influence shape the people of Indonesia into "honor killers"?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

eh...

The trappings of religion? Maybe? True religious doctrine? eh, not really.

Western culture is shaped more by the enlightenment and other secular philosophies (including capitalism) than it is by the Christianity it likes to tell itself that it believes. That region has always been predominantly Muslim, but it's only more recently that religious violence has become a thing.

What you're doing confusing is religion with fundamentalism. It's fundamentalism (of any sort, not just religious), not religion, that gets you this violent, illiberal authoritarianism.

But why is it that only one particular flavor of religious fundamentalism seems be the one that's most prone (more than the others) to advancing itself to the level of Authoritarian Theocracy in places where it's majority?

There are 5 full-blown actual recognized Theocracies on the planet right now, all are of the same religion (Afghanistan, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauretania)

And if you expand the scope look at nations that have an officially codified state religion (which is a slightly softer form of Theocracy):
Islam - 27
Christianity - 9 (used to be more, but many of disestablished in the past 70 years)
Judaism 1
Hinduism 0 (Nepal was the last one, but disestablished and went secular in 2006)


Islam seems to stand alone as the one that trends toward the direction of consolidation of religious and political power where the others trended away from it over the long term. (and that's a unique thing about their texts as well, their religion was one that was designed to be enforced with state power right from the get go, which makes sense considering Muhammed was doing double duty as both a religious and political leader)


The "all religions have their fundamentalists and their extremists", while semantically true, seems to do nothing more than obfuscate the issue.

If Mike is having 4 beers per day and occasionally shouts at his wife, and Dave is 15 beers per day and slaps his wife around on a weekly basis... simply saying "well, both households have someone with alcohol abuse issues that are impacting their marriages, so we can't really say that one is worse than the other" is intellectually dishonest.

 

[BCP1928]

Are we denying that the prevailing religion of the region shapes culture more times than not?

You can always find some outliers. But when 9 out of the top 10 have a glaring similarity (and that similarity involves a doctrine, from which, you can draw a straight line to the behavior in question) it's not unreasonable for one to conclude that it's a factor.

Honor killing is explicitly contrary to Islam and Sharia law. It is as much a problem for Islamic culture as it would be here.

 

[BCP1928]

But why is it that only one particular flavor of religious fundamentalism seems be the one that's most prone (more than the others) to advancing itself to the level of Authoritarian Theocracy in places where it's majority?

There are 5 full-blown actual recognized Theocracies on the planet right now, all are of the same religion (Afghanistan, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauretania)

Have you forgotten the Vatican?

And if you expand the scope look at nations that have an officially codified state religion (which is a slightly softer form of Theocracy):
Islam - 27
Christianity - 9 (used to be more, but many of disestablished in the past 70 years)
Judaism 1
Hinduism 0 (Nepal was the last one, but disestablished and went secular in 2006)


Islam seems to stand alone as the one that trends toward the direction of consolidation of religious and political power where the others trended away from it over the long term. (and that's a unique thing about their texts as well, their religion was one that was designed to be enforced with state power right from the get go, which makes sense considering Muhammed was doing double duty as both a religious and political leader)

A lot of that is nothing but reaction. For instance, I can remember when Iran was a secular state with a popular socialist prime minister who we overthrew and replaced with a secular dictator bent on imposing Western cultural values. How did that work out for us?

The "all religions have their fundamentalists and their extremists", while semantically true, seems to do nothing more than obfuscate the issue.

If Mike is having 4 beers per day and occasionally shouts at his wife, and Dave is 15 beers per day and slaps his wife around on a weekly basis... simply saying "well, both households have someone with alcohol abuse issues that are impacting their marriages, so we can't really say that one is worse than the other" is intellectually dishonest.