Young earth vs Old earth?

[Job 33:6]

Again, no one is saying that God didn't create ex nihilo. The question is, is that the specific creation event that Genesis is describing? Hebrews is not a retelling of Genesis. It's a completely different book of the Bible written several hundred years later by a different author. So it's an assumption that because the idea is in Hebrews, that Genesis therefore is saying that specific idea.

And Psalm 33:9 says nothing of ex nihilo creation. It just says that God spoke and it was done, which we all agree on. Also when Psalm 33:9 states "it stood fast" that does not imply ex nihilo creation, rather it implies that God spoke and something that already existed stood fast.

As a matter of fact, just read the passage:

Psalms 33:6-9 NASB1995
[6] By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host. [7] He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deeps in storehouses. [8] Let all the earth fear the Lord; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. [9] For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.

The passage parallels Genesis, but as we can see, in creation of the heavens, the waters were separated and restrained just like in Genesis day 2, and the earth stood fast when He spoke.

The objects of creation are already present in these verses. And you can search the entire old testament high and low, this is how it is always described, as including pre existing material.

I'll just add clarity for any YEC that is actually willing to engage the text.

Many YECs will look at passages such as:

Psalm 68:18
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.

And Ephesians 4:8
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]

And theyll say "wow, He Ascended on High", I guess that means that Ephesians 4 and Psalm 68 are describing the same event and the same concepts and meanings.

Or they'll look at
Hosea 11:1
1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

and Mathew 2:15
15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”[a]

And they'll say "out of egypt I have called my son, I guess this is talking about the same thing".

And they'll stretch that logic between Hebrews or John and Genesis, and they'll say, well Hebrews sounds a lot like Genesis, therefore Hebrews must be re-telling Genesis. Hebrews describes ex nihilo creation, therefore Genesis must also be.

All the while they're failing to acknowledge that the new testament was written centuries later by different authors describing different concepts and events. So quoting Hebrews 11:3 and saying "well that sounds like ex nihilo creation to me" is not a valid argument for why Genesis should be interpreted that same way. That's out of context reading of the old testament. @throughfierytrial

The new testament authors, when they quote the old testament (and Hebrew's doesnt even quote Genesis, but I'm spelling out the point for you), when the new testament authors quote or reference the old testament, they never actually re-tell the original story, rather they tell a new story in light of the one who is to come (Jesus). And as an example above, Hosea 11:1 is about the Isrealites leaving Egypt while Mathew 2:15 is about Jesus leaving egypt. Psalms and Ephesians are similarly different.

All this to say, it's actually an unreasonable assumption to say that because Hebrews describes a concept, that Genesis must therefore be saying the same thing. Especially when Hebrews doesnt even quote Genesis.

 

[CoreyD]

I gave you that answer too. Hebrews 4:8

You never did give me Hebrews 4:8. This is the first time you mentioned Hebrews 4:8.
Before, you gave me Hebrews 11:3 and Hebrews 11:9-10.
You said...

Hebrews 4 iexpounds this and Hebrews 11:3 upholds this interpretation. In my view it reaffirms the literal account of Genesis creation. There too can be found the illustration this provides for heaven in Hebrews 11:9-10.

These refer to God's rest that began after creation, and continues till now.
The seventh day is actually then about 5,995 years long.

Therefore that rules out the erroneous view that each day in Genesis is 24 hours long, thus disproving any claim that the earth is only 6,000 years young.
It also disproves the claim that the "7th day became the Israelites Sabbath Day", because since the seventh day, is actually nearly 5,995 years today, it could not possibly be a single day. The Israelites Sabbath was a single 24 hour day.

So, your answer says you are incorrect. Thank you.


Thank you for the scripture.
Hebrews 4:8 reads... For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.
This refers to the designated day, in Hebrews 4:7.

God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts

What day are you saying that is? Thank you.

 

[CoreyD]

I'll just add clarity for any YEC that is actually willing to engage the text.

Many YECs will look at passages such as:

Psalm 68:18
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.

And Ephesians 4:8
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]

And theyll say "wow, He Ascended on High", I guess that means that Ephesians 4 and Psalm 68 are describing the same event and the same concepts and meanings.

Or they'll look at
Hosea 11:1
1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

and Mathew 2:15
15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”[a]

And they'll say "out of egypt I have called my son, I guess this is talking about the same thing".

And they'll stretch that logic between Hebrews or John and Genesis, and they'll say, well Hebrews sounds a lot like Genesis, therefore Hebrews must be re-telling Genesis. Hebrews describes ex nihilo creation, therefore Genesis must also be.

All the while they're failing to acknowledge that the new testament was written centuries later by different authors describing different concepts and events. So quoting Hebrews 11:3 and saying "well that sounds like ex nihilo creation to me" is not a valid argument for why Genesis should be interpreted that same way. That's out of context reading of the old testament. @throughfierytrial

The new testament authors, when they quote the old testament (and Hebrew's doesnt even quote Genesis, but I'm spelling out the point for you), when the new testament authors quote or reference the old testament, they never actually re-tell the original story, rather they tell a new story in light of the one who is to come (Jesus). And as an example above, Hosea 11:1 is about the Isrealites leaving Egypt while Mathew 2:15 is about Jesus leaving egypt. Psalms and Ephesians are similarly different.

All this to say, it's actually an unreasonable assumption to say that because Hebrews describes a concept, that Genesis must therefore be saying the same thing. Especially when Hebrews doesnt even quote Genesis.

I may be wrong here, but I think you are missing what @throughfierytrial is saying.
Also, the Bible is authored by a single Person - God,
God used different writers to create one unified message in one book. In the same way a company uses different programmers to create one movie, or game.
Each programmer gets a script, or a part to work on, but all these portions when combined is one project.
This is the way it is with the Bible.

It has one message; and one theme, that is related from Genesis to Revelation.
I think now that this has come up, I will create a thread to cover this.
I can let you know when I do, if it is of interest to you.

Regarding ex nihilo, we already established, by several posters in this thread, that is not relevant to the question of young earth vs old earth.
@throughfierytrial is using Hebrews in an effort to prove the earth is young.
Paul refers to the scriptures in the Psalms and Genesis, so we cannot ignore the fact that these books were used as references by both Jesus and his apostles.

The scriptures are from God - 2 Timothy 3:16.
They are not different works by different men, as if men wrote unrelated stories, and someone collected them into one book.
The Bible is a package of little book, that are all about God, and his purpose from beginning to end.
More on that, when I create the thread.

 

[Job 33:6]

I may be wrong here, but I think you are missing what @throughfierytrial is saying.
Also, the Bible is authored by a single Person - God,
God used different writers to create one unified message in one book. In the same way a company uses different programmers to create one movie, or game.

I agree, but I would say that the one story, that one unified story, doesnt somehow force the old testament to therefore say what the new testament says. Hosea 11:1 and Mathew 2:15 both say "out of egypt I have called my son", and Mathew explicitly quotes hosea. But that doesnt mean that Hosea is therefore about Jesus. In fact it was just about the exodus. There is a context that differs between the two books, and so we cant simply force the old testament to say what the new testament says, any time the new testament authors speak about something similar to the OT.

This is context 101, you cant force the old testament to say exactly what the new testament says, just because the Bible is a unified story. We still have to acknowledge that these are different books and they say different things, even if they sometimes use the same words or similar words.

Regarding ex nihilo, we already established, by several posters in this thread, that is not relevant to the question of young earth vs old earth.
@throughfierytrial is using Hebrews in an effort to prove the earth is young.
Paul refers to the scriptures in the Psalms and Genesis, so we cannot ignore the fact that these books were used as references by both Jesus and his apostles.

But it is of course relevant, because if its not ex nihilo creation being described in Genesis, then that would suggest that earth was present before God began to create it. Much like a pizza can be formless before I began to create it, so too can the earth be such. And that means that we wouldnt know how long the earth was formless before God began to make it.

And as noted above, just because the new testament authors reference the old testament, that doesnt necessarily mean that they are telling the same story or re-telling it. And I gave a couple examples above where the new testament authors reference the OT but are in fact telling completely different stories, thats actually what they typically do.

 

[CoreyD]

I agree, but I would say that the one story, that one unified story, doesnt somehow force the old testament to therefore say what the new testament says. Hosea 11:1 and Mathew 2:15 both say "out of egypt I have called my son", and Mathew explicitly quotes hosea. But that doesnt mean that Hosea is therefore about Jesus. In fact it was just about the exodus. There is a context that differs between the two books, and so we cant simply force the old testament to say what the new testament says, any time the new testament authors speak about something similar to the OT.

I agree we cannot just up and say something without a substantial reason for taking that position.
However, we do have a solid basis for applying these verses to the Messiah.

1. The first book of the scriptures started with the fall of man, and God's promise of a Messiah. Genesis 3
2. Jesus, the Messiah, said that all these prophecies and sayings apply to him Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39

When they are quoted, they are quoted as references to the Messiah.
Matthew 2:14, 15
14 So [a]Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. 15 He [b]stayed there until the death of Herod; this happened so that what had been spoken by the Lord through [c]the prophet would be fulfilled: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

Lots of scriptures, especially in the Psalms, are quite detached from anything we can find in Israelite events.
For example...
Psalm 22:18
They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

We can without question and confidently, apply the fulfillment to the Messiah.
Luke 23:34
And Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they cast lots, dividing His garments.

But it is of course relevant, because if its not ex nihilo creation being described in Genesis, then that would suggest that earth was present before God began to create it.

So, was your house created ex nihilo?
Since it was not, does that suggest to you that it was present before it was created?

Much like a pizza can be formless before I began to create it, so too can the earth be such. And that means that we wouldnt know how long the earth was formless before God began to make it.

Does a formless pizza exist?
How then can you create it, if it is already present?

Your "unformed" pizza is in existence. It is still a pizza.
If you want one that is empty and waste, just remove the paste. <------> Earth is formless and waste, but it exists.

Your pizza is not out of nothing, but created from something. <------> Earth is created from existing essence, or energy.

Your pizza is now completed.. <------> Earth is completed when God finishes creating everything in it.

That's not too hard for us to understand J.
The argument that YEC present, is that Genesis 1:2 is from day one, and day one is 24 hours long, so according to them, the earth was created in six twenty four hour days, starting from when it was formless and ending when it was completed.
That is a period of six literal days when both the heavens and earth were made.

Your argument is actually saying... I contend that the earth could have been formless for three or four days before God finished it, and this is because you think the earth was only created after it was in existence... which is not correct.
If something exists, it is already created.
I thought I made that clear.

When I asked, was the earth in existence when God's spirit was moving on the waters? you said It doesn't say that the earth didn't exist yet. It says that the earth was formless or in a chaotic state, so... aren't you confusing yourself, and us?
For example, you said, He takes something that already materially exists, and creates it
That is not a correct statement to make.

And as noted above, just because the new testament authors reference the old testament, that doesnt necessarily mean that they are telling the same story or re-telling it. And I gave a couple examples above where the new testament authors reference the OT but are in fact telling completely different stories, thats actually what they typically do.

They are applying the same scripture to the Messiah, because those scriptures either had a two-fold application... that is, they had a double fulfillment, or they applied to the Messiah, though it was not known to the Jews.

Paul said this secret was later revealed to the apostles. Ephesians 3:3-7
So, when they quoted the texts, in the Hebrew scripture, they understood that the application was either present, or future.
In other words, they were given the hidden knowledge that was in the old text.

 

[Job 33:6]

I agree we cannot just up and say something without a substantial reason for taking that position.
However, we do have a solid basis for applying these verses to the Messiah.

1. The first book of the scriptures started with the fall of man, and God's promise of a Messiah. Genesis 3
2. Jesus, the Messiah, said that all these prophecies and sayings apply to him Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39

When they are quoted, they are quoted as references to the Messiah.
Matthew 2:14, 15
14 So [a]Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. 15 He [b]stayed there until the death of Herod; this happened so that what had been spoken by the Lord through [c]the prophet would be fulfilled: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

Of course Mathew is referring to Jesus. But that doesnt mean that Hosea 11:1 was.

Does a formless pizza exist?
How then can you create it, if it is already present?

You create it, by giving it form. Just as God took the formless earth, and gave it form.

Your "unformed" pizza is in existence. It is still a pizza.

Yes, exactly. And the unformed or formless earth was in existence, it was still the earth too. The earth was formless.

If you want one that is empty and waste, just remove the paste. <------> Earth is formless and waste, but it exists.
View attachment 373799

Correct.

Your pizza is not out of nothing, but created from something. <------> Earth is created from existing essence, or energy.


Your pizza is now completed.. <------> Earth is completed when God finishes creating everything in it.
View attachment 373801

The earth is finished when God created it and everything on it. That's why Genesis 2:1 NRSV says: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all their multitude.

Your argument is actually saying... I contend that the earth could have been formless for three or four days before God finished it, and this is because you think the earth was only created after it was in existence... which is not correct.
If something exists, it is already created.
I thought I made that clear.

That's incorrect. Throughout the Old Testament, God creates things that already physically exist. We've already covered this. God creates Israel (Isiah 43:1-15), God creates a blacksmith (Isaiah 54:16). Ezekiel creates a signpost. Did the signpost already materially exist in Ezekiel? Of course it did. Yet Ezekiel could still create it anyway. Physically and in material terms, the signpost already existed. Ezekiel didn't make matter appear out of nothing. Ezekiel created the signpost using material that is already there. When God creates Israel, God doesn't snap his finger and make Israel appear. Same with the blacksmith, it is not as though a human body appeared out of thin air as a blacksmith. God took something that was already physically there and created it. God opens rivers and plants trees and "creates" them in Isiah 41:20. This doesn't mean that God snapped his fingers and trees appeared out of thin air. The physical matter is already there.

Ezekiel 21:19 NIV
“Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take, both starting from the same country. Make a signpost where the road branches off to the city.

When I asked, was the earth in existence when God's spirit was moving on the waters? you said It doesn't say that the earth didn't exist yet. It says that the earth was formless or in a chaotic state, so... aren't you confusing yourself, and us?
For example, you said, He takes something that already materially exists, and creates it
That is not a correct statement to make.

The earth was there, it was formless. Nothing confusing about this. The earth was formless and empty, that is the state that it existed in when the spirit was moving upon the waters.

 

[CoreyD]

Of course Mathew is referring to Jesus. But that doesnt mean that Hosea 11:1 was.

I'm not getting you.
Which prophecy does Matthew refer to, if not Hosea 11:1?

You create it, by giving it form. Just as God took the formless earth, and gave it form.

Are you saying that God did not create the formless earth?
If yes, how did the formless earth come into existence? If no, I am not following your argument, since the formless earth would have been created, and if it was created, then completing it, by making hills, mountains, valleys, seas, trees, animals, and people, on it, is not creating the earth, as if it isn't already created.

Oh wait! You mean creating things on it. Is that correct?

Yes, exactly. And the unformed or formless earth was in existence, it was still the earth too. The earth was formless.

Right. Create - To cause to exist; bring into being [existence]: synonym: establish.
Since the "earth was in existence", though formless, it was created that way. Would you agree?

The earth is finished when God created it and everything on it. That's why Genesis 2:1 NRSV says: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all their multitude.

So, let me ask you a question. Well... a couple questions.

• If the earth did not have humans, is it a created earth?
• Take away the animals along with humans. Is it a created earth?
• Take every green thing off of it... that would be, every plant, along with the animals and humans. Is it a created earth?
• Drain the water off of it, and collapse every hill and mountain. Is it a created earth?

What exactly do you think the earth is?

That's incorrect. Throughout the Old Testament, God creates things that already physically exist. We've already covered this.

God creates Israel (Isiah 43:1-15),

There is no Isiah 43:1-15
Isaiah 43:1, 7

1 But now, this is what the LORD says - He who created you, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; you are Mine!​

7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”​

God created a nation, out of individuals who make up that nation.
Did that nation exist prior to God forming it?
Of course not.

How about Malachi 2:10

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?​

Did we exist, before we came into this world? Of course we did not.

God creates a blacksmith (Isaiah 54:16).

Isaiah 54:16

“I have created the blacksmith who fans the coals beneath the forge and makes the weapons of destruction. And I have created the armies that destroy.​

Did that blacksmith exist before? No.
What about the weapons he forged, and the destructive armies? No, they did not.

Ezekiel creates a signpost. Did the signpost already materially exist in Ezekiel?

Let's take a look.

Of course it did. Yet Ezekiel could still create it anyway. Physically and in material terms, the signpost already existed. Ezekiel didn't make matter appear out of nothing. Ezekiel created the signpost using material that is already there. When God creates Israel, God doesn't snap his finger and make Israel appear. Same with the blacksmith, it is not as though a human body appeared out of thin air as a blacksmith. God took something that was already physically there and created it.

Ezekiel 21:19 NIV
“Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take, both starting from the same country. Make a signpost where the road branches off to the city.

Where do you see the signpost existing before?
This mark is new. Something God told Ezekiel to make. It didn't exist before.

The earth was there, it was formless. Nothing confusing about this. The earth was formless and empty, that is the state that it existed in when the spirit was moving upon the waters.

What's confusing is you saying this, and then saying God creates the earth, even though it's already created.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm not getting you.
Which prophecy does Matthew refer to, if not Hosea 11:1?

It refers to Hosea 11:1, but Hosea 11:1 is not about Jesus, it's about the exodus of the Israelites.

Are you saying that God did not create the formless earth?
If yes, how did the formless earth come into existence? If no, I am not following your argument, since the formless earth would have been created, and if it was created, then completing it, by making hills, mountains, valleys, seas, trees, animals, and people, on it, is not creating the earth, as if it isn't already created.

God did create the formless earth ex nihilo. But that's not what Genesis is about. Genesis is a different story. Genesis is the story in which God creates by doing things like separating waters, gathering waters, establishing roles and functions etc. Genesis is not about ex nihilo creation.

So, let me ask you a question. Well... a couple questions.

• If the earth did not have humans, is it a created earth?
• Take away the animals along with humans. Is it a created earth?
• Take every green thing off of it... that would be, every plant, along with the animals and humans. Is it a created earth?
• Drain the water off of it, and collapse every hill and mountain. Is it a created earth?

What exactly do you think the earth is?

In Genesis, before the earth was filled with life, it was bohu, or empty. Before the waters were gathered to reveal the earth, it was tohu or formless and uncreated.

Isaiah 43:1, 7

1 But now, this is what the LORD says - He who created you, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; you are Mine!​

7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”​

Isaiah 45:1-15.
But now, this is what the Lord says—
he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush[a] and Seba in your stead.
4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight,
and because I love you,
I will give people in exchange for you,
nations in exchange for your life.
5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”
8 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind,
who have ears but are deaf.
9 All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”

God’s Mercy and Israel’s Unfaithfulness​

14 This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon
and bring down as fugitives all the Babylonians,[b]
in the ships in which they took pride.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
Israel’s Creator, your King.”


God creates Jacob and Israel, yet neither were created ex nihilo.

God created a nation, out of individuals who make up that nation.
Did that nation exist prior to God forming it?
Of course not.

Materially, it did. It is not as though God snapped his fingers and buildings appeared out of thin air. The matter was already there.

How about Malachi 2:10

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?​

Did we exist, before we came into this world? Of course we did not.

Materially, we do. Your human body did not appear out of nothing. You were born from your mother, formed out of matter that already exists.

Isaiah 54:16

“I have created the blacksmith who fans the coals beneath the forge and makes the weapons of destruction. And I have created the armies that destroy.​

Did that blacksmith exist before? No.
What about the weapons he forged, and the destructive armies? No, they did not.

Of course he did, he did not appear out of thin air, nor did the weapons he forged. He made them using matter that already existed.

This mark is new. Something God told Ezekiel to make. It didn't exist before.

Materially, the sign was already there. Ezekiel didn't make physical matter appear out of nothing.

When God creates the earth, the material, just like in every other instance in which God creates in the old testament, is already there. It's just tohu.