MARK OF THE BEAST - REVELATION 13-14; 17; 18

[Douggg]

I think from our discussion we will have to agree to disagree because from my view your trying to add to the words of Revelation that not there

You are being ambiguous.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are being ambiguous.

Well I see it the other way around. We must be careful not to read into the scripture what is not there or to add to the book of Revelation according to the warning given in Revelation 22:18

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, on your chart you have the third woe as being the great earthquake of Revelation 16 I presume.

But it is actually not called a woe in the text.

The third woe mentioned in Revelation, in the text, refers to Satan being cast down to earth having only a time/times/half time let, in Revelation 12:12.

Hi Dougg,

while I posted it I thought, `something is wrong about the woes.` So thank for that. Will go and correct.

I couldn`t find my article so just had to block out the wrong `woe.` Now saying that I have made the Great earthquake the 6th woe according to Rev. 11: 14 which tells us that it is the second woe.

The third woe I believe is when the Lord descends and the flesh melts off the bodies of the armies surrounding Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 12)

Now I know you think the second woe is when the dragon is cast out of the universal heavens, for it is called a woe to the inhabitants.... however that is in the middle of the trib, and is part of the first woe. (Rev. 9: 1 - 12) See Rev. 12: 14 where the dragon still is persecuting for `time, times and half a time. (3 1/2 yrs)

Marilyn.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Dougg,

while I posted it I thought, `something is wrong about the woes.` So thank for that. Will go and correct.

I couldn`t find my article so just had to block out the wrong `woe.` Now saying that I have made the Great earthquake the 6th woe according to Rev. 11: 14 which tells us that it is the second woe.

The third woe I believe is when the Lord descends and the flesh melts off the bodies of the armies surrounding Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 12)

Now I know you think the second woe is when the dragon is cast out of the universal heavens, for it is called a woe to the inhabitants.... however that is in the middle of the trib, and is part of the first woe. (Rev. 9: 1 - 12) See Rev. 12: 14 where the dragon still is persecuting for `time, times and half a time. (3 1/2 yrs)

Marilyn.

My view is we should be more worries about understanding what the mark of the beast is so that we can avoid receiving Gods' judgements.

 

[Timtofly]

My view is we should be more worries about understanding what the mark of the beast is so that we can avoid receiving Gods' judgements.

Accept the Atonement of the Cross. Christ received that Judgment on our behalf. We need no other judgment besides that one in Christ.

 

[FredVB]

My view is we should be more worries about understanding what the mark of the beast is so that we can avoid receiving Gods' judgements.

Any disobedience to God is what we should be concerned with. We are alienated from being in relationship with God with having that still. We would still have salvation with being believers, so we would not have the mark of the beast, if it were already coming. There are things yet to come, ahead of that. We should not remain here, with any of the cities of civilization, it is not meant for the people of God. To have the image of God we should obediently have good stewardship to the earth, God's dominion is not destructive. God hates the destruction from people to this earth, see Revelation 11:18. It will all collapse, see Isaiah 24. This is what the fall of Mystery Babylon is about, and meanwhile so many argue their position like arguing how many angels can dance together on a head of a pin. We have responsibility and we can't just stay here, with doing those things still needed. The one prophesied to be like a beast will come still, with promises to rebuild everything and will deceive many, with not having any godliness in what would be brought, that one should not be followed, and the people of God should not be fooled by him. Staying away from centers of civilization is much much better.

 

[eclipsenow]

Any disobedience to God is what we should be concerned with. We are alienated from being in relationship with God with having that still. We would still have salvation with being believers, so we would not have the mark of the beast, if it were already coming. There are things yet to come, ahead of that. We should not remain here, with any of the cities of civilization, it is not meant for the people of God. To have the image of God we should obediently have good stewardship to the earth, God's dominion is not destructive. God hates the destruction from people to this earth, see Revelation 11:18. It will all collapse, see Isaiah 24. This is what the fall of Mystery Babylon is about, and meanwhile so many argue their position like arguing how many angels can dance together on a head of a pin. We have responsibility and we can't just stay here, with doing those things still needed. The one prophesied to be like a beast will come still, with promises to rebuild everything and will deceive many, with not having any godliness in what would be brought, that one should not be followed, and the people of God should not be fooled by him. Staying away from centers of civilization is much much better

As a Christian environmentalist concerned about climate change - I am sympathetic to your argument that we should not be 'destroying the earth'. There are plenty of good gifts we can use in this material world - but we need to champion both people AND planet - both human life and the biosphere - and my (mostly secular) blog is all about how we can do that. But avoiding big cities is NOT one of them. Why? Because it is both a good environmental strategy and gospel opportunity to live in cities. I have seen missionary organisations with good hearts go out and serve people in various far flung villages - and those people were grateful for the medical charity care they received but only a few responded to the gospel (for various ethnic and local cultural reasons.) But if the same mission had focussed on the young people going through university age in that country, I'm sure if converted those smart university people would have gone on to do great things for promoting the gospel in their country that would eventually feed out to the villages as well. It's just more strategic.

So here I can only conclude that something in your eschatology has so overwhelmed you that you may have forgotten the Great Commission and urgency of the overall thrust of the whole bible? God acting to save human beings. The gospel! The message we need to share. That's the real priority - NOT some weird end-times table that may nor may not play out according to whatever events you are imagining.

 

[FredVB]

I don't say anything about not sharing the gospel. It can be with everyone we speak with. Many were mistaken with their expectations before, when prophecy was yet to be fulfilled, and when prophecy was being fulfilled, and this seen now that those prophecies are already fulfilled. Bible passages not noted by others that I see do give support to what I said, that I can give that weight to, Isaiah 24 does that. I do not dismiss what is really actually happening in this world, nor what God required of humanity from the very start, in which their is failure, noted in Revelation 11:18.

 

[Jipsah]

My view is we should be more worries about understanding what the mark of the beast is so that we can avoid receiving Gods' judgements.

Just make sure you don't offer a sacrifice to an image of Caesar.

 

[contratodo]

Mark of the beast = literal mark on forehead or hand used primarily for buying and selling.

Most likely advanced technology, most likely a symbol that many hold dear now, I refrain from writing specifically about it for that reason. (Amos 5:26) So called Jesus will convince many that he has arrived with his angels to seal many with the seal of God in their forehead. "Your supposed to put it on your head and not on your hand, that is why it is not the mark of the beast " is what many will likely say.

Image of the beast = a hologram of a man speaking, a man seemingly healed from death Rev 13:3, talking blaspheme about what is outside of the sky Rev 13:6. Projected hologram technology, coming up from even phones. A.i. inside of the phones will keep track of who watches and who does not, and will be able to send out a signal to kill those who don't. Most live their lives around/with the device already today. The technology that would allow for such an interactive signal to be sent out is in place as of today, the a.i. is being trained today, the hologram technology is being perfected today.

Abomination of desolation = a special quantum computer put in a newly built temple, one connects to it via the mark, the computer will actually store and monitor consciousness, and be able to transfer it into hosts, one would be able to be conscious inside of the computer without a body, or even transfer into a robot body, causing literal desolation as humanity connects to it and lives in it. It is the devil's offer of seeming eternal life, most will go along with it, those who don't will be killed. The second resurrection serves to also resurrect souls out of the abomination. (No we're not in it now, there would be no touch, and it would likely be first presented as that you can go to 'heaven' and back, after half the time he comes out and admits he's the devil hoping people will simply accept his offer, believing the lie that they will not die)

 

[Jipsah]

Image of the beast = a hologram of a man speaking, a man seemingly healed from death Rev 13:3, talking blaspheme about what is outside of the sky Rev 13:6. Projected hologram technology, coming up from even phones. A.i. inside of the phones will keep track of who watches and who does not, and will be able to send out a signal to kill those who don't. Most live their lives around/with the device already today. The technology that would allow for such an interactive signal to be sent out is in place as of today, the a.i. is being trained today, the hologram technology is being perfected today.

I think I've seen a movie along those lines.
Still there's the problem of whom the Revelator was writing to. He says it was the seven churc hes of Asian Minor, we say no, it was us. Hmmm... All in very science-fictiony terms, too.

Now somehow I can't see the tech-jaded masses being swept away bu a talking hologram. That's kind of old school now, isn't it? As for tracking us, well, yeah, our phones are continuously shouting our names and locations everywhere we go, so that's a given. The "kill signal" thing will simply cause people tp turn to burner phones once they know that sofy of thing is happening, And anyway, who does any of that benefit? Cui bono? "The Beast"? How? This is all kind of harkening back to 60s-70s technophobia, where the tech-ignorant masses would be cowed by digital blue-smoke-and-mirrors. I don't ase that working in the 21st century.

Abomination of desolation = a special quantum computer put in a newly built temple, one connects to it via the mark, the computer will actually store and monitor consciousness, and be able to transfer it into hosts, one would be able to be conscious inside of the computer without a body, or even transfer into a robot body, causing literal desolation as humanity connects to it and lives in it.

IE, a Magic AI. Sorry, but when you invoke magic the whole scenatio kinda falls apart. If it's just magic, none of the techno-foolery is unnecessary, just magic it from end to end.

It is the devil's offer of seeming eternal life, most will go along with it

Because magic again.

, those who don't will be killed.

That's always an incentive, and this yime no magic necessary.

The second resurrection serves to also resurrect souls out of the abomination. (No we're not in it now, there would be no touch, and it would likely be first presented as that you can go to 'heaven' and back, after half the time he comes out and admits he's the devil hoping people will simply accept his offer, believing the lie that they will not die)

Yeah, at this point it's kind of kind of turned into a B movie.

And you still have the problem of who St. John was actually talking to in the first place.

 

[eclipsenow]

Just make sure you don't offer a sacrifice to an image of Caesar.

Word!

That's the AOD anyway.

But the mark of the beast that everyone goes on about could be a historical moment in Rome's persecution - mixed in with a bit of metaphor.

Consider that the mark was a mark on the back of their hand and forehead.

The imperfect number 6 is repeated 3 times.

Doesn't this indicate the participants were replacing the Mishnah prayer with trusting in wealth and worshipping the power of the state?

In the very next chapter we see Christians with a white stone on their forehead! That's instead of the mark of the beast.

End times types love to insist their favourite scary bits are literal - and brush over the very next scenes that compare and contrast one image with another so that we know they're not literal but theological statements.

Unless we belong to the church of the white stone forehead, I'm going to guess that's a metaphor as well.

 

[contratodo]

And you still have the problem of who St. John was actually talking to in the first place

Revelation 22:17-18
Revelation 13:8-9

 

[eclipsenow]

According to chapter 1, John was writing to Asia minor, these things were about to start soon, he said he himself shared in their tribulation, and that he wanted them to take to heart and meditate on and obey his teaching.

So it's not an end times table, but a figurative symbolic sermon on suffering. It teaches us how to endure when the governments of this world go bad. It's generic not specific. It's theology not a timetable.

Imagine I came to you with a vision from God, and said that in 2000 years there would be a terrible worldwide government on Mars. The death star would laser half the planet, so when you see these signs, don't be on that side of the planet. Now obey this message!

How do you? You would have been dead 30 human lifetimes before the events even start?!

When modern American futurists want to read revelation is being all about us today, the unintended consequence is that it has therefore been utterly meaningless and incomprehensible to the church for the last 2,000 years.

The nations and technologies of today were utterly irrelevant to the Christians about to be thrown to the lions.

It's just not possible to obey a message about people in some incomprehensible future world 2,000 years hence.

This is in stark contrast to John writing to his friends in Asia minor, who he wanted to obey to take comfort in his message as things started to get bad.

And as we look back from 2000 years in the future, we can see a history of God's people being persecuted, or living through terrible natural disasters, or living through nature in chaos and the chaos of war. We can see where Christians got it right, and suffered boldly and joyfully for the gospel, and we can see where they got it wrong.

We can learn from revelation just as we learn from letters to the Corinthians and Ephesians and Romans.

But if a letter was addressed to them about suffering 2,000 years in the future, isn't John basically telling them to toughen up Princess because check out what's coming!? It's just so patronising and unlike the concern we read that John had in chapters 1 and 2

 

[contratodo]

So it's not an end times table, but a figurative symbolic sermon on suffering

So you say it all happened already? Christ returned already?

 

[eclipsenow]

You haven't answered the above issues.
John clearly said the events were starting soon, in 4 different ways.
"near", "soon", he "Shared in their tribulation" - and he wanted them to obey his message.
That's NOT possible for THEM if we narcissistically assume it's all about US!

John wrote in a genre called apocalyptic symbolism which was common to 200 BC to about 200 AD.
Have you read any of the other works of the period? I've read snatches - years ago.
Enough to be convinced by those theologians that show it's a style that comments on the period the author lives in.

It's like dressing up the day's political events in the language of comic book heroes.

It's not a linear timeline of the future, it's a waltz around certain themes.
It's not a timeline, it's a circular thematic sermon.
And sermons often encourage us to consider the promised return of the Lord!

This does so by not just theologically asserting the promise of the Lord's return in judgement and salvation - as Paul might.
It does it by picturing it. But if you look closely - we see the Lord's return in judgement at a number of different points!

EG: In the end of Chapter 6, and multiple times, from multiple different points of view, at the end.
How can it be a timetable of the future if it's got Jesus returning at the end of Chapter 6, and multiple points at the end?
That doesn't make sense.

Anyone approaching it with today's trendy interpretive goggles of "What do me, myself, and I all think this means for the next decade?" is going to end up a bit...

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Hello all this is a thread for sharing scriptures on MARK OF THE BEAST.

WHAT IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST CLICK ME?

There is a simple study from God's WORD * DANIEL AND REVELATION and history here beastsmark.com for those who may be interested in the scriptures and some more detail.

God's WORD teaches that GOD'S PEOPLE ARE IN EVERY CHURCH! Theye are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD as much as God has revealed to them. *JOHN 10:16; ACT 17:30-31.

I would like to discuss the following scriptures here in this OP.

REVELATION 14:6-12
[6], And I saw another angel fly in midheaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,
[7], Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
[8], And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
[9], And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10], The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11], And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.
[12], Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

...............

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION (linked to scripture studies in this thread)

Q1. WHAT IS THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL? v6 linked
Q2. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO FEAR GOD? v7 linked
Q3. HOW DO WE GIVE GLORY TO GOD? v7 linked
Q4. WHAT IS THE JUDGMENT ABOUT? v7 linked
Q5. WHO DOES BABYLON THE HARLOT WOMAN REPRESENT? v8; 17:1-5; 18:1-9
Q6. THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS OVER WHORSHIP v8-12
Q7. WHO IS GOD’S TRUE CHURCH IN GOD’S WORD? v12
Q8. WHAT DOES A BEAST OF KINGDOM REPRESENT IN DANIAL AND REVELATIONS?
Q9 WHAT ARE THE SYMBOLS AND MEANING OF MARK, SIGN AND SEAL?
Q10. WHAT IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WHEN DO PEOPLE RECEIVE IT?
Q11. THE SEAL OF GOD HOW DO WE GET IT?
Q12. DID YOU KNOW THAT THE CIVIL SUNDAY LAWS HAVE ALREADY PASSED?
Q13. WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST, THE MAN OF SIN, THE BEAST AND 666?
Q14. WHO DID THE EARLY REFORMERS BELIEVE THE ANTICHRIST WAS? 1/2
Q15. WHO DID THE EARLY REFORMERS BELIEVE THE ANTICHRIST WAS? 2/2

QUESTIONS TO THINK ABOUT

...............
FRIENDLY CHRISTIAN DISCUSSION AND SCRIPTURE ONLY PLEASE.
, Constantinople fell to the Ottomans.
God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

"The Beast" was already interpreted for us in Daniel as being the 4 gentile empires. Babylon, Medo\Persia, Greece and Roman. This was a time period of the worldwide oppression of the saints. It started in 597BC when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea and ended in 1453AD when what had been the capitol of the Roman Empire since 333AD Constantinople fell to the Ottomans. The importance of understanding the prophecy in Daniel and Revelation is so that one can know when the 100 or so chapters of a promised age of billions coming to Christ and a growing free world pioneered by Christians would begin. Which was after the Roman Empire ends.

The reason this would not happen before the Roman Empire ended is that is the exact time when the general population (illegally) began to gain access to Bibles due to the invention of the commercial printing press. Thus began the fulfillment of this prophecy below about the overthrow of 7000 years' worth of despotic kings and emperors and the establishment of republics based in various degrees of biblical principle. This, as a process not an event.

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. 19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. 20 For the tyrannical oppressor is brought to nothing, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

Now, to the question in the OP. Revelation is further illumination on the prophecies already spoken about and interpreted in the OT. Revelation 13 is further illumination about the Roman Empire. Since that is now what they were living out. The two horns on the lamb beast is a prophecy of the Roman Empires split into and eastern and western branch. The lamb represents its claims of Christianity. It speaking the words of the dragon is self-explanatory. Remember the OT already prophesied the invisible kingdom of God would fill the earth after the fall of the Roman Empire. So it is not adding a new empire on the backside thereby invalidating the Bibles prophecy. It demonstrates this by making sure the reader knows this lamb like animal is still prophesying about the Roman empire.

How? Rome already enrolled the empire for taxation . That is at the very beginning of the gospels. That is the can't buy and sell part. The number 666 is the number of years from the beginning of the times of the gentiles when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Ancient Isreal in 597BC until Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD ending the 1st covenant age. There is no year -0- making it 666 years.

 

[eclipsenow]

"The Beast" was already interpreted for us in Daniel as being the 4 gentile empires. Babylon, Medo\Persia, Greece and Roman. This was a time period of the worldwide oppression of the saints. It started in 597BC when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea and ended in 1453AD when what had been the capitol of the Roman Empire since 333AD Constantinople fell to the Ottomans. The importance of understanding the prophecy in Daniel and Revelation is so that one can know when the 100 or so chapters of a promised age of billions coming to Christ and a growing free world pioneered by Christians would begin. Which was after the Roman Empire ends.

I was with you until you projected past the New Testament era. The REALITY amongst theologians that matter is Daniel's 4 kingdoms are REALLY complex to interpret - but that it's past. It's either fulfilled by Rome or not - and the complicated apocalyptic symbolism around the end of this sequence is pointing to Jesus. Or not. It's very, very tricky.

I was lucky enough to have a Professor of Old Testament at my church for years - and even he says it's very, very tricky.
There are debates about how it might unfold around Antiochus - or up to Jesus. The years don't work as years either way - but might work as chunks - as rough fractions of time in a symbolic sense.

And Revelation borrows from this imagery, but John does his own thing with it. The 4 beasts are amalgamated into one - representing ALL God's enemies.

Trying to get literal with calendars just makes me yawn.
It's just. Not. True!

That's the way of endless disputes amongst various tribes of futurist - and is why I leave this forum for 6 months at a time.

 

[contratodo]

You haven't answered the above issues.
John clearly said the events were starting soon, in 4 different ways.
"near", "soon", he "Shared in their tribulation" - and he wanted them to obey his message.
That's NOT possible for THEM if we narcissistically assume it's all about US

And there are seven kings, five are fallen and one is, and one is not yet come, and when he comes he must continue a short while. And the beast that was and is not even he is the eighth and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. Revelation 17:10-11

In your view who are those five kings, and who is the one that was at the time of the writing of Revelation?

Did you know that five popes had come and gone, not including Peter, by the time John was writing Revelation?

When did Jesus ascend and sit at the right hand of the Father? Acts 1:9-11, Revelation 5:5 says Jesus prevailed to open the scroll that is at the right hand of the Father. Therefore the opening of the scroll began at that time when Jesus ascended and sat down, that is why the Bible is telling us He is at the right hand, connecting Hebrews 12:2 with Revelation 5 beautifully.

He opened the first seal around 30 ~ 50 ad. And what happened? Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad. Then again in 1090 it was surrounded by enemies and occupied, and again, and again, the ai will let you know that Jerusalem has been captured at least 41 times since Christ. Daniel tells us it would happen 70 times, "70 captivities are determined upon thy people......" Captivities, not weeks. "And after seven captivities and 62 weeks shall Messiah suffer the death penalty but not for Himself.". Daniel 9:1-2,24,26 plainly 490 years and 62 weeks. Some scribe took liberty and changed it all to weeks, but the context makes clear it is about captivity, Daniel was told that the captivity he was in would happen seventy times.

In 1948, May 15th 1948, armies once again surrounded Jerusalem, this time with tanks and such. Until 1967 half of Jerusalem was desolated and uninhabited. Then began a military 'defense' ( to be blunt it is a captivity, a military occupation, all the sincere in Israel have been in captivity since 1967, checkpoints at crossroads being one of the main agents of it ) that continues to this day, 2037 will mark 70 years.

And the office of the Pope is still with us, it was here during the writing of Revelation, laws that the popes have made are still in place today, January, Sunday, that we call the year 2000 is if the popes as well.

I tell you plainly dear one, for the times are upon us, one day a person in that office will seam to die, and then..... An alien mother ship will come beam him up, it will be big world wide news. The ship may linger for a while or what have you, and then... It beams him back down, alive! Ohhh ahhh, all the world will marvel, whose names are not in the book of life, when they see him. Half his face cyborg, ( the blinded by science card ) and speaking much about what is outside of the sky, supposed beings from other planets, humanoid aliens. Wow everyone will say, 'finally the Bible is explained, it's all about beings on other planets...' But dear one, it's all a grand deception, just as the Bible says Revelation 13:6

As we examine Scripture carefully and note what has happened as is happening, it is clear that Revelation is ongoing, it started when Christ ascended and will end when He returns.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I was with you until you projected past the New Testament era. The REALITY amongst theologians that matter is Daniel's 4 kingdoms are REALLY complex to interpret - but that it's past. It's either fulfilled by Rome or not - and the complicated apocalyptic symbolism around the end of this sequence is pointing to Jesus. Or not. It's very, very tricky.

I was lucky enough to have a Professor of Old Testament at my church for years - and even he says it's very, very tricky.
There are debates about how it might unfold around Antiochus - or up to Jesus. The years don't work as years either way - but might work as chunks - as rough fractions of time in a symbolic sense.

And Revelation borrows from this imagery, but John does his own thing with it. The 4 beasts are amalgamated into one - representing ALL God's enemies.

Trying to get literal with calendars just makes me yawn.
It's just. Not. True!

That's the way of endless disputes amongst various tribes of futurist - and is why I leave this forum for 6 months at a time.

When were you “with me.” You just disputed everything I said. None of which was futurism.
It’s only complicated when people try to make the Bible’s prophecy about the end of the world.