Ted Cruz torches Tim Kaine for describing God-given rights as 'very, very troubling'

[RileyG]

In the context they were discussing, the law and government.

So not from God? Only from secular authority? That’s fine, since our nation indeed is a secular nation.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

So not from God? Only from secular authority? That’s fine, since our nation indeed is a secular nation.

Again:

In the context they were discussing, the law and government.

 

[RileyG]

Again:

In the context they were discussing, the law and government.

Got it! I’m aware.

 

[Michie]

Another pov:

Senator Flunks Civics 101: Governments Secure Rights, God Grants Them

COMMENTARY: Sen. Tim Kaine’s declaration of dependence on our political leaders misses the point of America’s founding: Governments are instituted to secure our rights, not grant them.

www.ncregister.com

 

[Michie]

Tim Kaine doubles down on comments about God-given rights, responds to criticism

Sen Tim Kaine, D-Va , has doubled down on his criticism of the idea that people s rights come from God and not the government, as his recent remarks during a United States Senate hearing have drawn

www.christianpost.com

 

[A New Dawn]

It is. Rights are granted to all in the US regardless of religion, so one religion telling another religion it’s wrong doesn’t matter in the context of the rights bestowed upon us.

While true, not all religious beliefs are equal. There are religions whose beliefs create 2nd and 3rd class citizens who they have a right to destroy. Gays, women that the men rape who they then consider unclean and dishonorable. So while the law protects their religion, it prevents the practice of many of their beliefs. That is the problem we are now seeing in many western nations where islamists have invaded.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

While true, not all religious beliefs are equal.

In the eyes of our government, they are, so your argument is moot.

There are religions whose beliefs create 2nd and 3rd class citizens who they have a right to destroy.

Like Christians and gays, trans people, other religions (like you did above), non-Americans…?

Gays, women that the men rape who they then consider unclean and dishonorable. So while the law protects their religion, it prevents the practice of many of their beliefs. That is the problem we are now seeing in many western nations where islamists have invaded.

And fundamentalist or extremist Christians, which is why it’s great to have a government that delivers fundamental rights to all who adhere to the tenants of the law and not one specific religion. Which was this guy’s point.

 

[A New Dawn]

In the eyes of our government, they are, so your argument is moot.

Like Christians and gays, trans people, other religions (like you did above), non-Americans…?


And fundamentalist or extremist Christians, which is why it’s great to have a government that delivers fundamental rights to all who adhere to the tenants of the law and not one specific religion. Which was this guy’s point.

Christianity doesn’t teach hate or violence, its core beliefs are love. The only commandments that Christ gave was to love God and to love others as He loved us. So extremists don’t get to decide for Christianity what our beliefs are. Far right extremism only accounts for a minuscule fraction of Christians. But those are beliefs and practices that are mainstream to Islam, and if allowed, they would do so here.

 

[Fervent]

Far more dangerous to believe that the government grants rights, since if they are granted by the government they can be revoked by the government at any time.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Christianity doesn’t teach hate or violence, its core beliefs are love. The only commandments that Christ gave was to love God and to love others as He loved us. So extremists don’t get to decide for Christianity what our beliefs are. Far right extremism only accounts for a minuscule fraction of Christians. But those are beliefs and practices that are mainstream to Islam, and if allowed, they would do so here.

Islam mainstream beliefs are no more violent than the Christian core beliefs. A select few have converted it to evil means, for both religions, and that’s all.

 

[Fervent]

Islam mainstream beliefs are no more violent than the Christian core beliefs. A select few have converted it to evil means, for both religions, and that’s all.

This isn't true in the slightest, and it is obvious when looking at the lives of the founders of the two religions. While there are various degrees of religiosity in both, the basic beliefs of Islam center on following the commands of a warlord.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

This isn't true in the slightest, and it is obvious when looking at the lives of the founders of the two religions. While there are various degrees of religiosity in both, the basic beliefs of Islam center on following the commands of a warlord.

Islam is soon to be the majority religion in the world. It’s also well-represented stateside. An overwhelming majority of people who are Islamic are law-abiding people who want nothing more than to practice their faith in a peaceful, lawful way. This idea that two billion+ people are living by the sword is preposterous.

I might add that outside of the US, the things you’re saying about Islam are the things people say about Christianity. My German relatives keep asking what’s wrong with American Christians and I’m tired of saying *shrug.*

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, ripped his colleague Sen. Tim Kaine, D-Va., on Wednesday for describing the idea that human rights come from God and not the government as "very, very troubling."

"I have to say, it is stunning to me that the principle that God has given us natural rights is now deemed by Democrats some radical and dangerous notion," Cruz said during a nominations hearing of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Kaine, who unsuccessfully ran as former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's vice presidential candidate in 2016, had earlier described himself as "a devout person" before likening the concept of God-given rights to the Iranian regime.

Continued below.

Ted Cruz torches Tim Kaine for describing God-given rights as 'very, very troubling'

Sen Ted Cruz, R-Texas, ripped his colleague Sen Tim Kaine, D-Va , on Wednesday for describing the idea that rights come from God and not the government as very, very troubling

www.christianpost.com

As fate has it, the inherent philosophical elements of modern Human Rights theory is a bit more complicated than what either Ted Cruz or Tim Kaine all too briefly express in the cited article.

It's best to take all of this with a grain of salt since anyone can do the homework and come to understand how easily it is to throw the idea of Human Rights around as easily as one would throw a rag-doll.

In other words, I wouldn't get too uptight over all of this either way. There's a lot to sift through.

 

[Fervent]

Islam is soon to be the majority religion in the world. It’s also well-represented stateside. An overwhelming majority of people who are Islamic are law-abiding people who want nothing more than to practice their faith in a peaceful, lawful way. This idea that two billion+ people are living by the sword is preposterous.

While a minority are involved in the violence personally, violence is inherent in the fundamentalist form of Islam. It's baked into the qu'ran, the sira, and the sunnah. When violence is used to forward it, it is in keeping with the basic teachings of the religion.

I might add that outside of the US, the things you’re saying about Islam are the things people say about Christianity. My German relatives keep asking what’s wrong with American Christians and I’m tired of saying *shrug.*

They say that the basic teachings of Christianity are violent because Christ was a violent warlord who taught His followers through both His words and actions to spread the religion by violence?

 

[A New Dawn]

Islam mainstream beliefs are no more violent than the Christian core beliefs. A select few have converted it to evil means, for both religions, and that’s all.

Wildly untrue. Islam is built on war and jihad. It is in the Koran. Later in the Koran are some temporizing passages that speak to peace. But you likely haven’t seen the videos of people considered moderate Muslims here in the US who state right out that if given a choice, they’d rather institute sharia law here in the US rather than live under US law that prohibits them from being able to do those barbaric customs.

 

[A New Dawn]

I might add that outside of the US, the things you’re saying about Islam are the things people say about Christianity. My German relatives keep asking what’s wrong with American Christians and I’m tired of saying *shrug.*

Just an off-the-cuff suggestion, you could correct them by telling them the truth. Or at least defend Christianity the way you defend Islam.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

While a minority are involved in the violence personally, violence is inherent in the fundamentalist form of Islam. It's baked into the qu'ran, the sira, and the sunnah. When violence is used to forward it, it is in keeping with the basic teachings of the religion.

They say that the basic teachings of Christianity are violent because Christ was a violent warlord who taught His followers through both His words and actions to spread the religion by violence?

That’s like saying violence is inherent in fundamentalist Christianity. Stoning homosexuals, witches, adulterers, talks about dashing infants against the rocks, Canaan, Jesus setting fire to the world… There’s plenty of retribution and violence commanded of followers of Christ at various points. If you were to take that devoid of context, it would be super easy to say that Christianity is built on war and violence. And in Europe, there are like eight crusades to back up that belief.

Yes, people outside of the US look at our gun culture, our murder and death rates, the events like Pulse and hear the perpetual lines of the dominant right who make clear they are Christian and ask questions. They question the tangling of people who claim to be good Christians, but also pro-guns. Or pro-life, but not pro-lunches in schools or medical care that doesn’t financially ruin people. They hear “CHRISTIAN NATION!!” and then doctors being shot, look at Jan 6th, and arrive at the conclusion that Christianity is certainly pretty tolerant of a degree of death and violent retribution that other countries aren’t. Heck, some hardline Christians here said “well, when you speak hate, you can’t be surprised when people try to assassinate you” about a Democrat government official, but pound their fists and scream for blood when it’s said by the other side about Charlie Kirk. A fair amount of Americans don’t understand that level of supreme cognitive dissonance, much less non-Americans.

 

[Fervent]

That’s like saying violence is inherent in fundamentalist Christianity. Stoning homosexuals, witches, adulterers, talks about dashing infants against the rocks, Canaan, Jesus setting fire to the world… There’s plenty of retribution and violence commanded of followers of Christ at various points. If you were to take that devoid of context, it would be super easy to say that Christianity is built on war and violence. And in Europe, there are like eight crusades to back up that belief.

Yes, people outside of the US look at our gun culture, our murder and death rates, the events like Pulse and hear the perpetual lines of the dominant right who make clear they are Christian and ask questions. They question the tangling of people who claim to be good Christians, but also pro-guns. Or pro-life, but not pro-lunches in schools or medical care that doesn’t financially ruin people. They hear “CHRISTIAN NATION!!” and then doctors being shot, look at Jan 6th, and arrive at the conclusion that Christianity is certainly pretty tolerant of a degree of death and violent retribution that other countries aren’t. Heck, some hardline Christians here said “well, when you speak hate, you can’t be surprised when people try to assassinate you” about a Democrat government official, but pound their fists and scream for blood when it’s said by the other side about Charlie Kirk. A fair amount of Americans don’t understand that level of supreme cognitive dissonance, much less non-Americans.

You're comparing apples and watermelons. The fundamentalist form of Christianity, taken to mean the form consistent with the teachings and actions of Christ, leads to aggressive pacifism and self-sacrifice. That there exist within the Bible violence, at points commended, is not the same as what is present in Islam. Muhammad was a warlord, and is taken to be the best of humanity by Islam. He tortured people for wealth, took slaves by violence, had multiple sex slaves, beheaded people for not recognizing his prophecy and accepted converts at the threat of beheading. In short, Muhammad was everything that Islam is criticized for.

As for the opinon of people outside the US' opinion, it remains completely removed from what I am pointing out since they aren't looking at what is actually taught by Christianity, instead looking at what a minority do/say that gets sensationalized and then forming an ignorant opinion. When Christians act in violence, they are acting out of character with the central figure; when Muslims act in violence they are acting perfectly in line with the "best of people" according to their religion.

I am not saying this based on an ignorant appraisal of how a minority of Muslims act, but based on actually reading the koran, hadiths, and sira. It's not that violence is present in the texts, but that everything the terrorists do are in keeping with the life and teachings of Muhammad.

 

[A New Dawn]

That’s like saying violence is inherent in fundamentalist Christianity. Stoning homosexuals, witches, adulterers, talks about dashing infants against the rocks, Canaan, Jesus setting fire to the world… There’s plenty of retribution and violence commanded of followers of Christ at various points. If you were to take that devoid of context, it would be super easy to say that Christianity is built on war and violence. And in Europe, there are like eight crusades to back up that belief.

Yes, people outside of the US look at our gun culture, our murder and death rates, the events like Pulse and hear the perpetual lines of the dominant right who make clear they are Christian and ask questions. They question the tangling of people who claim to be good Christians, but also pro-guns. Or pro-life, but not pro-lunches in schools or medical care that doesn’t financially ruin people. They hear “CHRISTIAN NATION!!” and then doctors being shot, look at Jan 6th, and arrive at the conclusion that Christianity is certainly pretty tolerant of a degree of death and violent retribution that other countries aren’t. Heck, some hardline Christians here said “well, when you speak hate, you can’t be surprised when people try to assassinate you” about a Democrat government official, but pound their fists and scream for blood when it’s said by the other side about Charlie Kirk. A fair amount of Americans don’t understand that level of supreme cognitive dissonance, much less non-Americans.

And what of this isn’t present in every country and every religion in the world? Or every political party? The left has been loudly vocal of its hate of the right and claims the moral high ground that allows them to rain hate and anger and violence at who they perceive to be their enemies and then act shocked when their enemies start reacting to the vitriol. The left has no moral high ground. They are the 20% side of every 80-20% issue from abortion to wanting to mutilate children for the trans god, to allowing men in women’s sports, to refusing to keep repeat violent criminals in jail to keep society safe, to refusing to take action on closing the border and allowing millions upon millions of illegals aliens into the country which include terrorists on the terrorist watch list, drug runners, child traffickers, violent gang members, etc. They choose to make children vulnerable instead of taking the precautions necessary to protect them and then blame the problems on guns instead of their own failed policies and the worsening mental health of the nation.

See. I can do it, too.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Wildly untrue. Islam is built on war and jihad. It is in the Koran. Later in the Koran are some temporizing passages that speak to peace. But you likely haven’t seen the videos of people considered moderate Muslims here in the US who state right out that if given a choice, they’d rather institute sharia law here in the US rather than live under US law that prohibits them from being able to do those barbaric customs.

And plenty of Christians, if given a choice, would enact their own version of conservative law. One Christian here was using the Bible to explain why women shouldn't vote. In the marriage section, you get people talking about how divorce shouldn't be allowed. These are peers we talk with regularly. The same problems of persecution, violence, and perversion of the word happens to all major religions, Christianity included. The same conversations you're having about the inherent violence of Islam are the same discussions others are having about Christian nationalists. Before 2040, the dominant religion in the world will be Islam, not Christanity. To claim that your religion is the one you choose because you believe it to be true, to allege 2 billion people are following an inherently violent religion despite the majority's ability to live quite peacefully and while ignoring the inherent violence in our own religious text is foolish and hypocritical.

Just an off-the-cuff suggestion, you could correct them by telling them the truth. Or at least defend Christianity the way you defend Islam.

Just an off-the-cuff response, you could assume I do talk about Christianity and defend it as I do about misinformation on Islam or any other religion. Being educated and honest does way more to spark discussions with people than just labeling and dismissing them, especially using inaccurate information. You think somebody who's Muslim will find you to be a good ambassador or witness to the Christian faith if you call them violent and their beliefs rooted in violence, then listen to what you have to say about Christianity? You're listening to a Christian talk about the violent aspects of Christianity and you've shut down, gotten rude, and are being snarky. You think doing that will yield different results to somebody who's Muslim?