If God can replace Israel, He can replace the Church, too

[Clare73]

Your purpose seems to be to question the authority of all Scripture if it does not agree with your sense of "NT didactics?" Of course, Scripture agrees with itself, Law, History, Poetry, Prophecy, etc. But the idea that Scripture agrees with NT fundamentals is as old as the hills, though it does not tend to marginalize any of these categories. Harmonizing them with a NT perspective merely helps us to understand them as a whole.

It is the means of correct interpretaton.
If interpretation is not in agreement with NT teaching, that interpretaton is incorrect.

 

[RandyPNW]

All of the NT is didactics, except for Revelation, which is prophecy, which God says he speaks in riddles (dark sayings) and not cleary (Nu 12:6-8)

I'm not sure how you're defining "didactics" here? In the OT most of the categories of Scripture are viewed as "not didactical." In the NT we have the Gospels as history and the book of Acts as history. Do you then see these as "didactical" too?

I think what you're really aiming at, respectfully, is doctrine? If so, please recognize that doctrine can be carried by a wide variety of literary styles, from Law to Poetry to Prophecy. Your attempt at marginalizing Prophecy in the book of Revelation is shameful, inasmuch as Jesus himself emphasized its importance, to be both read and kept.

Prophecy can be interpreted in more than one way, and which way being correct, if any, not really being known until its fulfillment.

Yes, Jesus can be interpreted in more than one way. Paul's letters can be read in more than one way, except that we can all agree it was the New Testament, and it was Christian. I think you are trying to use an illegitimate argument to disprove the value of Prophecy and the book of Revelation, particularly as it relates to Israel and the Millennium.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not sure how you're defining "didactics" here? In the OT most of the categories of Scripture are viewed as "not didactical." In the NT we have the Gospels as history and the book of Acts as history. Do you then see these as "didactical" too?

I think what you're really aiming at, respectfully, is doctrine? If so, please recognize that doctrine can be carried by a wide variety of literary styles, from Law to Poetry to Prophecy. Your attempt at marginalizing Prophecy in the book of Revelation is shameful, inasmuch as Jesus himself emphasized its importance, to be both read and kept.

Yes, Jesus can be interpreted in more than one way. Paul's letters can be read in more than one way, except that we can all agree it was the New Testament, and it was Christian. I think you are trying to use an illegitimate argument to disprove the value of Prophecy and the book of Revelation, particularly as it relates to Israel and the Millennium.

All I'm saying is that any interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8) which is not in agreement with NT teaching is incorrect interpretation, for God does not contradict himself in his word written.

 

[RandyPNW]

All I'm saying is that any interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8) which is not in agreement with NT teaching is incorrect interpretation, for God does not contradict himself in his word written.

I of course agree with that! But that brings us full circle--I believe that NT apostolic teaching does, in fact, teach the future salvation of national Israel, following the return of Jesus. Rom 9-11.

All of OT Scripture points to this, as well as to the fulfillment of nations of faith, promised to Abraham. The Law was given built upon the predicate of Abraham's promise, to the Israeli nation as well as to many nations of faith. The Prophets, also, were devoted to this end, to begin with Israel who was to be a light to the nations.

The Law was to safeguard Israel in righteousness until Christ came. And then, the Gospel would guide the nations until the time when all of them would be restored.

All this was promised to be the end of Christ's mission, to bring grace to fallen Israel, as an example of God's grace to the entire world. This is apostolic teaching, even if it has only started in this age and will only be fulfilled in the next age.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

[NRSVUE NU 12:6-8] 6 And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. 7 Not so with my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. “Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

*** a Catholic perspective

A Catholic Commentary on Numbers 12:6-8


Dear brother or sister in Christ, as you contemplate these sacred words from Numbers, you are witnessing God's own testimony to the unique relationship He established with Moses—a relationship that prefigures and points toward the ultimate revelation in Jesus Christ.

The Hierarchy of Revelation (v. 6) Notice how the Lord distinguishes between the ordinary means of prophetic revelation—visions and dreams—and something far more intimate. The Catholic Church teaches that while God has always communicated with His people through various means, He reserves His most direct communication for those whom He chooses for the most sacred missions. As you read this, consider how God still speaks to you today through Scripture, the Magisterium, and the sacraments, though perhaps not with the same immediacy Moses experienced.

Moses as Type of Christ (v. 7) When God declares Moses "faithful in all my house," you should see this as a foreshadowing of Christ, who is faithful as Son over God's house (Hebrews 3:5-6). The Catechism teaches us that the Old Testament prefigures the New, and Moses' unique faithfulness points to the perfect faithfulness of Jesus. As you strive for faithfulness in your own Christian walk, you have Moses as an example and Christ as your perfect model and source of grace.

Face-to-Face Communication (v. 8) The intimacy of Moses speaking with God "face to face—clearly, not in riddles" anticipates the Beatific Vision promised to the faithful. The Catholic tradition understands that while Moses enjoyed extraordinary intimacy with God, it was still veiled compared to the direct vision of God's essence that awaits the blessed in heaven. Your own prayer life, nourished by the Eucharist and guided by the Church's wisdom, participates in this same divine intimacy, though in a different mode.

Respect for God's Chosen (v. 8b) The Lord's rebuke—"Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"—reminds you to show proper reverence for those whom God has established in authority. The Church teaches that we must respect the hierarchy God has established, whether in the family, the Church, or civil society, recognising that legitimate authority comes from God Himself.

In your meditation on this passage, let it deepen your appreciation for how God has progressively revealed Himself, culminating in the face-to-face encounter with the divine in Jesus Christ, whom you receive intimately in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Clare73]

I of course agree with that! But that brings us full circle--I believe that NT apostolic teaching does, in fact, teach the future salvation of national Israel, following the return of Jesus. Rom 9-11.
All of OT Scripture points to this, as well as to the fulfillment of nations of faith, promised to Abraham. The Law was given built upon the predicate of Abraham's promise, to the Israeli nation as well as to many nations of faith. The Prophets, also, were devoted to this end, to begin with Israel who was to be a light to the nations.

The Law was to safeguard Israel in righteousness until Christ came. And then, the Gospel would guide the nations until the time when all of them would be restored.

All this was promised to be the end of Christ's mission, to bring grace to fallen Israel, as an example of God's grace to the entire world. This is apostolic teaching, even if it has only started in this age and will only be fulfilled in the next age.

But we have the apostolic teaching (Ro 11:16-23) of Christ (Lk 10:16) which makes it conditional, (IF), and not certain (WHEN).

 

[The Liturgist]

[NRSVUE NU 12:6-8] 6 And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. 7 Not so with my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. “Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

*** a Catholic perspective

A Catholic Commentary on Numbers 12:6-8


Dear brother or sister in Christ, as you contemplate these sacred words from Numbers, you are witnessing God's own testimony to the unique relationship He established with Moses—a relationship that prefigures and points toward the ultimate revelation in Jesus Christ.

The Hierarchy of Revelation (v. 6) Notice how the Lord distinguishes between the ordinary means of prophetic revelation—visions and dreams—and something far more intimate. The Catholic Church teaches that while God has always communicated with His people through various means, He reserves His most direct communication for those whom He chooses for the most sacred missions. As you read this, consider how God still speaks to you today through Scripture, the Magisterium, and the sacraments, though perhaps not with the same immediacy Moses experienced.

Moses as Type of Christ (v. 7) When God declares Moses "faithful in all my house," you should see this as a foreshadowing of Christ, who is faithful as Son over God's house (Hebrews 3:5-6). The Catechism teaches us that the Old Testament prefigures the New, and Moses' unique faithfulness points to the perfect faithfulness of Jesus. As you strive for faithfulness in your own Christian walk, you have Moses as an example and Christ as your perfect model and source of grace.

Face-to-Face Communication (v. 8) The intimacy of Moses speaking with God "face to face—clearly, not in riddles" anticipates the Beatific Vision promised to the faithful. The Catholic tradition understands that while Moses enjoyed extraordinary intimacy with God, it was still veiled compared to the direct vision of God's essence that awaits the blessed in heaven. Your own prayer life, nourished by the Eucharist and guided by the Church's wisdom, participates in this same divine intimacy, though in a different mode.

Respect for God's Chosen (v. 8b) The Lord's rebuke—"Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"—reminds you to show proper reverence for those whom God has established in authority. The Church teaches that we must respect the hierarchy God has established, whether in the family, the Church, or civil society, recognising that legitimate authority comes from God Himself.

In your meditation on this passage, let it deepen your appreciation for how God has progressively revealed Himself, culminating in the face-to-face encounter with the divine in Jesus Christ, whom you receive intimately in the Holy Eucharist.

Very nice. By the way I get so ticked at people who claim Roman Catholics are discouraged from reading Scripture, since not only did the Church in Rome develop Lectio Divina, but also grants a plenary indulgence for the reading of Scripture (I along with many others have a copy of the Challoner revision of the Douai-Rheims that includes a table and other detailed information on that aspect).

Likewise those who would suggest the same about my church ignore our long history of making scripture available to the laity.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Very nice. By the way I get so ticked at people who claim Roman Catholics are discouraged from reading Scripture, since not only did the Church in Rome develop Lectio Divina, but also grants a plenary indulgence for the reading of Scripture (I along with many others have a copy of the Challoner revision of the Douai-Rheims that includes a table and other detailed information on that aspect).

Likewise those who would suggest the same about my church ignore our long history of making scripture available to the laity.

That stuff is "reformation" anti-Catholic propaganda and people ought to have grown out of it by now.

 

[RandyPNW]

But we have the apostolic teaching (Ro 11:16-23) of Christ (Lk 10:16) which makes it conditional, (IF), and not certain (WHEN).

I already showed you that it is no contradiction to apply a condition, and then to establish that some will fulfill that condition. "If my People who are called by my Name will humble themselves and pray, and turn from their sins, then will I hear from heaven."

Then God said, in the Prophets, that not only will some repent and be restored, but that the entire nation will be restored, though the rebels among them will be removed.

Deut 30.1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you...
32.43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.

There are many promises that despite the conditions laid down for the blessings or the curse of the nation Israel there are many promises made for final national restoration in the Prophets. I will not quote them all.

Isa 50.1 This is what the Lord says:
“Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce
with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
because of your transgressions your mother was sent away....
51.16 I have put my words in your mouth
and covered you with the shadow of my hand—
I who set the heavens in place,
who laid the foundations of the earth,
and who say to Zion, ‘You are my people.’”

Hos 2.2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband....
2.14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the wilderness
and speak tenderly to her.
15 There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respond as in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.
16 “In that day,” declares the Lord,
“you will call me ‘my husband’;
you will no longer call me ‘my master.' "

 

[Clare73]

I already showed you that it is no contradiction to apply a condition, and then to establish that some will fulfill that condition.

Then we are in agreement. . .the promise is being fulfilled in a remnant, the same way salvation is fulflled among the Gentiles. . .all mankind are on the same footing; i.e., salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[RandyPNW]

Then we are in agreement. . .the promise is being fulfilled in a remnant, the same way salvation is fulflled among the Gentiles. . .all mankind are on the same footing; i.e., salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, we are agreed that at present there is a remnant fulfilling the condition necessary for at least part of Israel to fulfill God's promise to Abraham. But we are not agreed on the idea that God's promise to Abraham requires the complete political deliverance of the nation of Israel, "never more" to be oppressed by the nations.

That will happen, I believe, at Christ's Coming. It just isn't a reality in our time. In order to preserve a proper attitude towards the Jewish People I believe it is necessary to keep in mind God's message of "Grace" for the Jewish People, and as an example for the whole lost world.

If God intends to give them a full political deliverance then we must show proper respect for them as the nations of the world are driving against them. God loves them for the sake of their patriarch Abraham just as God may respect your children with you being their mother of faith (assuming you have children).

 

[Clare73]

Yes, we are agreed that at present there is a remnant fulfilling the condition necessary for at least part of Israel to fulfill God's promise to Abraham. But we are not agreed on the idea that God's promise to Abraham requires the complete political deliverance of the nation of Israel, "never more" to be oppressed by the nations.

That will happen, I believe, at Christ's Coming.

Christ's second coming is the end of time, and he comes to judge, not ro save.
Salvation was the purpose of the first coming, not the second, which purpose is judgment.

 

[RandyPNW]

Christ's second coming is the end of time, and he comes to judge, not save.
Salvation was the purpose of the first coming, not the second, which purpose is judgment.

You're just declaring your own Amillennial beliefs. There are many today who, like me, are Premillennialists.

I do think that there is a culmination of international response to the Gospel in our age, taking place at Christ's Return. I just don't think that mortal humanity or the message of Salvation ends at that point. I don't think there's any real proof of that.

On the contrary, there are promises God made to Abraham that have not yet been fulfilled in our age. So I do believe that mortal humanity must continue on, after the Return of Christ, so that everything can be completed at that time. My opinion only...

 

[Clare73]

The name "Israel" identified the people we are talking about. Paul was using the name "Israel" to reflect upon their calling to be a faithful people.

So, when Israel failed to become a Christian nation, they were viewed as "untrue, or unfaithful, Israel." They did not stop being identified as "Israel." They stopped being who they were called to be.

Since they didn't stop being identified as Israel, the hope was that they would eventually live up to their name.

Let me be perfectly clear here. "Israel" refers to the *Jewish People,* and not to international Christianity. Their failure does not rob them of the name "Israel." Paul simply called them out for not living up to their name, indicating that they could be cut off from that group of people if they did not follow through and become a Christian nation.

In the Wilderness many Israelites were cut off from the assembly of Israel by death for their unfaithfulness. But they did not stop being called "Israelites."

The Jewish People have indeed failed, as a nation, to become a Christian nation for 2000 years. But they are still being identified as "Israel," ie as the Jewish People who are still called to eventually become a Christian nation. The definition of "Israel" did not change from "the Jewish People" to "the International Church."

Not all Israel is Israel.

 

[RandyPNW]

Not all Israel is Israel.

That's like saying, "Not all soldiers are true soldiers." It has to do with who in Israel is acting like Israel is supposed to be acting.

If those in Israel act like they're worshipping a foreign god, and not worshipping the God of Israel, then they are not acting like Israel. They are no better than Ishmael or Esau, who were not chosen to represent the Law of God.

But it is patently absurd to say that not all Israel is ethnic Israel. They most certainly are!

Please understand here that Paul is sometimes difficult to understand, as Peter noted. Paul freely uses here a literary convention in which a specious element seems to invalidate a reality. To say "you're not a Christian" would not be true, even though I may be right by insinuating that you're not *acting* like a Christian.

This is just an example--I'm not referring to you!

 

[Hawkins]

The concept is a bit different. The true Church is the body of Christ which was built in 3 days and is not corruptable. Physical entities such as the Great Sanhedrin with Pharisees, RCC with Pope are corruptable, and thus replacable.

 

[RandyPNW]

The concept is a bit different. The true Church is the body of Christ which was built in 3 days and is not corruptable. Physical entities such as the Great Sanhedrin with Pharisees, RCC with Pope are corruptable, and thus replacable.

The concept that "Israel is not Israel" is obviously a "loaded statement," and is not to be taken literally. It is a reflection upon the fact that not all Jews are acting as Jews were called to act, namely as Christians.

Ths has little to do with the "true Church," which is not national Israel, but rather, an international entity. But it is true that not all of Christianity are truly "Christian" in belief or in practice. But generally, we identify *all who call themselves "Christian" as "Christianity."

 

[Hawkins]

The concept that "Israel is not Israel" is obviously a "loaded statement," and is not to be taken literally. It is a reflection upon the fact that not all Jews are acting as Jews were called to act, namely as Christians.

Ths has little to do with the "true Church," which is not national Israel, but rather, an international entity. But it is true that not all of Christianity are truly "Christian" in belief or in practice. But generally, we identify *all who call themselves "Christian" as "Christianity."

You reply is actually confusing. Ancient Israel is more about ancient Judaism which was forfeited after AD 70, along with the disappearance the Pharisees (enforcing Judaism, in Moses' seat as Jesus put), and destruction of the Second Temple (a sign of authentication from God). Modern Judaism is irreevant as it's a new establishment more than 200 years after the AD 70 Siege. It's re-established by a group of rabbi popping up from no where. It's without actual authentication (from above).

As for today's Israel, it's no different than a Caesar such as Herod, there are however 10% of its population are orthodox Jews still being loyal to God by keeping the Mosaic Law the best they can (May God have mercy on them).

 

[RandyPNW]

You reply is actually confusing. Ancient Israel is more about ancient Judaism which was forfeited after AD 70, along with the disappearance the Pharisees (enforcing Judaism, in Moses' seat as Jesus put), and destruction of the Second Temple (a sign of authentication from God). Modern Judaism is irreevant as it's a new establishment more than 200 years after the AD 70 Siege. It's re-established by a group of rabbi popping up from no where. It's without actual authentication (from above).

As for today's Israel, it's no different than a Caesar such as Herod, there are however 10% of its population are orthodox Jews still being loyal to God by keeping the Mosaic Law the best they can (May God have mercy on them).

This may be "confusing" to you because you reject my premise, that Israel is still the "Israel of promise?" I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do accept their notion that Israel is still part of God's prophetic plan for the future.

Rabbinic Judaism has taken over the "Jewish People" in the present age, primarily, but God has promised Abraham that He will make Israel His "Chosen People" among the many "chosen peoples" that have now been in the world. That is, God has plans to make Israel a "Christian nation," just as He has already made many Gentile peoples "Christian nations."

It's quite obvious that all the nations that have been called by God to be a "Christian nation" have failed to establish the fulfillment of their calling on a permanent basis. And so, I think God's promises to Abraham remain only partly fulfilled, and destined to be fulfilled completely when Christ returns.

So, to reiterate, not all Israel has yet fulfilled what being "Israel" was meant to be--only a relative few Jews have converted to Christianity. That is, "not all Israel is Israel" as God intended Israel to be.

This is not saying that the Jewish People in Israel are not "Israel." That is obviously absurd unless we take Paul's statement in some kind of idiomatic fashion, as a literary convention expressing something less literal.

Paul uses a lot of shortcuts in his statements and leaves it to us to figure out his meaning. Otherwise, his letters would be too long. He is saying, in a nutshell, that not all Israel presently acts like Israel is supposed to act. They are acting just like the ones God excluded from the promise who became other nations not under the Law, such as Ishmael.

Read it this way, and you will understand my meaning. Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

That's like saying, "Not all soldiers are true soldiers." It has to do with who in Israel is acting like Israel is supposed to be acting.

Not all (ethnic) Israel is (true) Israel.

Don't confuse the two in your understanding of NT doctrine.