Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

[durangodawood]

.....
These people are also more likely to struggle with depression, anxiety, borderline personality disorder, post-traumatic stress, and anger issues than the general population. That is my focus. Stricter gun control laws are another, valid focus.

Terrific. So while trans people commit this minuscule fraction of all the murders out there, they are your focus when it comes to thinking about murder.

This can only be because you have some sort of other axe to grind that doesn't relate to murders or gun violence at all.

 

[rjs330]

What?

We have to get rid of guns Riley if we want to stop gun violence. We have no idea who is a responsible gun owner and who isn't. One can be responsible for years and then suddenly kill. Then hes no longer a responsible gun owner. But its too late by then. The ONLY way to stop gun deaths is to outlaw guns. Period.

 

[rjs330]

Bombay does all it can to reduce abuse.

Lol I hate fat fingering stuff. The UK has very few gun deaths because they cant have guns. Its that simple.

 

[rjs330]

While it wouldn't be practical, if the government really wanted to, they could find out who many of the gun owners in the country are. When a gun is purchased from a licensed dealer, a Form 4473 is filled out, and the dealer has to keep that form on record until they go out of business. If or when the dealer goes out of business, those forms are sent to the National Tracing Center, where they are stored indefinitely. These records go back to 1968. While it would be extremely time-consuming and expensive, the government would be able to track down most people who legally purchased a gun from a gun dealer over the past 57 years.

Yes lets have a federal law banning gun ownership, get rid of the 2nd Ammendment and end this scourge once and for all. As we've seen in California if everyone had California laws we would have very few if any gun deaths. Its the only way. Since one child killed by a gun in one too many. We have to do this.

 

[rjs330]

Terrific. So while trans people commit this minuscule fraction of all the murders out there, they are your focus when it comes to thinking about murder.

This can only be because you have some sort of other axe to grind that doesn't relate to murders or gun violence at all.

Its not trans people, its mentally ill people and trans people are mentally ill. I think we all agree that mentally ill people should not have guns. Weve seen far too often what happens when they do.

 

[RileyG]

We have to get rid of guns Riley if we want to stop gun violence. We have no idea who is a responsible gun owner and who isn't. One can be responsible for years and then suddenly kill. Then hes no longer a responsible gun owner. But it’s too late by then. The ONLY way to stop gun deaths is to outlaw guns. Period.

Ummm…..I’m speechless

 

[rjs330]

Fair enough. But how do we screen for mental health problems before gun purchases? The honor system: a question on a form? Identification is the problem.

Hey we gotta start somewhere right? We have to do something. How about a required psych examination? Or if you are on any psych drugs of any sort? Im sure there are records of that. Its an easy one if you are trans. No guns. You are mentally ill. I think anyone who has been prescribed psych drugs certainly would be disqualified. A psych test ot psych exam would be good. Might actually discourage people from buying a gun in the first place. That would be good.

 

[rjs330]

Of course.

Of course they could just leave us alone and we'd leave them alone. Honestly, NO ONE CARES IF THEY THINK THEY ARE THE OPPOSITE SEX. NO ONE.

It only matters when they decide to force the rest of us to believe it too. That's where the battle started. They have a mental illness. And we have no problem with them being ill. Its a real tragedy.

They are welcome to live however they wish. No one cares.

Its about time we realize the problem is theirs not ours. They are ill and should not be treated as if they are not and society should noy be required to bow down to their illness.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There's no conflict in trying to reduce the number of gang members and the number of guns, why are you putting them against each other in this discussion? Does the 95% confidence interval for the gang member / homicide slope contain 0? In other words, was it significant? Why didn't you also plot the underlying data points? With 12 data points and an r2 of 0.09, I wonder how they were distributed. If you point out the dataset I can do the calculations myself.

It's not that I'm putting them "against each other" (if you noticed, I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'm okay with some gun control measures), it's that the proposals are often very single-threaded, both in the "cause identification" and "what we need to do to fix it"

The conversation always seems focused on "We need to ban guns like <insert country here>" (that often has a very different culture and existing level of gun proliferation).


And that narrow view of "we need to just focus on the guns, all the guns, and nothing but the guns" without addressing the other factors is part of the reason why there's resistance to the idea. (because it's those other factors that are often the reasons why people may want to own/carry one in the first place)


To put it in more "common terms" -- So the expectation should be that I need to give up my ability to carry a gun first, because it's the "civil" thing to do...for what? So I can have someone pull a knife on me in Cleveland and have zero recourse but to grit my teeth and hand over my wallet?

I know national attitudes on this are different...but from my perspective, if I'm minding my own business and not bothering anyone, I should never have to be at a force disadvantage to someone who wishes to do me harm or forcibly take my stuff.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

Terrific. So while trans people commit this minuscule fraction of all the murders out there, they are your focus when it comes to thinking about murder.

This can only be because you have some sort of other axe to grind that doesn't relate to murders or gun violence at all.

In this context, yes. Both shooters (Aiden and Robin) referenced their transgender identity, gender dysphoria, and unhappiness with how they looked as a cause of their depression, anger, and (in Aiden's case) a desire to hurt others and to end their life.

This should worry people, especially people who care about the mental health, welfare, and status of transgender people. And who care about the people who may be targeted because of the mental health issues a transgender stranger is facing. Many, many, many of these people are not well.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Hey we gotta start somewhere right? We have to do something. How about a required psych examination? Or if you are on any psych drugs of any sort? Im sure there are records of that. Its an easy one if you are trans. No guns. You are mentally ill. I think anyone who has been prescribed psych drugs certainly would be disqualified. A psych test ot psych exam would be good. Might actually discourage people from buying a gun in the first place. That would be good.

There isn't any psych test that can accurately predict if someone is going to become a mass murderer. The best you might do is look for evidence of psychosis or possibly someone with combinations of impulsivity, anger, and antisocial traits. The problem is the vast majority of persons in those categories aren't going to hurt a flea. So, you would be ruling them out, too. I'm in the business and I don't want to have to give an opinion on who will and who won't. Same applies to anyone taking psych drugs. Millions of Americans are on psychotropic drugs and pose no risk. I do think red flag laws have some promise, though, if someone reports someone of concern.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

It's not that I'm putting them "against each other" (if you noticed, I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'm okay with some gun control measures), it's that the proposals are often very single-threaded, both in the "cause identification" and "what we need to do to fix it"

The conversation always seems focused on "We need to ban guns like <insert country here>" (that often has a very different culture and existing level of gun proliferation).


And that narrow view of "we need to just focus on the guns, all the guns, and nothing but the guns" without addressing the other factors is part of the reason why there's resistance to the idea. (because it's those other factors that are often the reasons why people may want to own/carry one in the first place)


To put it in more "common terms" -- So the expectation should be that I need to give up my ability to carry a gun first, because it's the "civil" thing to do...for what? So I can have someone pull a knife on me in Cleveland and have zero recourse but to grit my teeth and hand over my wallet?

I know national attitudes on this are different...but from my perspective, if I'm minding my own business and not bothering anyone, I should never have to be at a force disadvantage to someone who wishes to do me harm or forcibly take my stuff.

Ok, can we talk about your little statistics exercise now?
Here in #497 you post a plot of a trendline but no data points, where the y-axis start at 14 (the intercept is crazy high, the world average homicide rate is 5.2 in 2024, Homicide rate ). Were you zoomed in? If you don't have any data between 14 and 28 homicides per 100k, its likely that your points are skewed and then you will have some points being more influential than others. The legend says you used 12 countries, but with an r-squared of 0.09, I doubt that the slope was significant (I would guess you got an p-value close to 0.3). Do you have two columns of data for homicide rate (from UNODC?) and estimated number of gang members (source?)?

 

[DaisyDay]

Of course they could just leave us alone and we'd leave them alone. Honestly, NO ONE CARES IF THEY THINK THEY ARE THE OPPOSITE SEX. NO ONE.

If that were true then why are they victimized so much more?

Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault, according to a new study by the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law. In addition, households with a transgender person had higher rates of property victimization than cisgender households.​

It only matters when they decide to force the rest of us to believe it too. That's where the battle started. They have a mental illness. And we have no problem with them being ill. Its a real tragedy.

A real tragedy is how they are treated by society.

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/117016/documents/HMKP-118-JU00-20240321-SD011.pdf

The number of trans people who were murdered in the U.S. nearly doubled between 2017 and 2021, according to data released Tuesday by the non-profit Everytown for Gun Safety. Of the total victims, 73% were killed with a gun.​

​

Everytown's Transgender Homicide Tracker found that there was a 93% increase in tracked homicides of trans and gender-nonconforming people in the United States and Puerto Rico over the last four years. In 2021, 56 people were killed, compared to 29 reported deaths in 2017.​

​

Notably, while only 13% of the transgender community is estimated to be Black, according to UCLA School of Law's Williams Institute, Black trans women accounted for nearly three-quarters of the known victims.​

They are welcome to live however they wish. No one cares.

That's obviously untrue:

https://reports.hrc.org/an-epidemic-of-violence-2024

This report comes amidst an overwhelming wave of anti-transgender legislation. In 2023, for the first time in their 40+ year history, the Human Rights Campaign declared a National State of Emergency for LGBTQ+ Americans, in response to the over 550 anti-LGBTQ+ bills introduced into state houses across the country, more than 85 of which were passed into law. This trend continued into 2024, where over 500 additional anti-LGBTQ+ bills were introduced, and over 40 passed into law across 14 states.​

​

Its about time we realize the problem is theirs not ours. They are ill and should not be treated as if they are not and society should noy be required to bow down to their illness.

So, how about we pass the Red Flag laws?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Ok, can we talk about your little statistics exercise now?
Here in #497 you post a plot of a trendline but no data points, where the y-axis start at 14 (the intercept is crazy high, the world average homicide rate is 5.2 in 2024, Homicide rate ). Were you zoomed in? If you don't have any data between 14 and 28 homicides per 100k, its likely that your points are skewed and then you will have some points being more influential than others. The legend says you used 12 countries, but with an r-squared of 0.09, I doubt that the slope was significant (I would guess you got an p-value close to 0.3). Do you have two columns of data for homicide rate (from UNODC?) and estimated number of gang members (source?)?

Country	Guns per 100k	Gang members per 100k	Homicide rate (per 100k)
United States	133,000	250	5.5
United Kingdom	2,800	30	1.1
Canada	35,000	40	2.0
Mexico	15,000	1,000	25.0
Brazil	8,000	900	27.0
South Africa	13,000	800	33.0
Australia	14,000	20	1.0
Germany	19,000	25	0.9
France	15,000	35	1.2
Sweden	23,000	50	1.2
Japan	600	5	0.3
Czech Republic	12,000	15	1.0

(Values based on UN Small Arms Survey + UNODC crime stats, rounded)

 

[Belk]

Data is what research is composed of, Sir.

Again, the transgender community has far higher rates of mental health issues than the non-transgender population, and anti-Christian rhetoric is not uncommon on online transgender spaces (I have been there. It's unsettling).

I can understand not wanting to point fingers at an already misunderstood community. But... If we are going to talk about gun control and SSRI drugs (which we should and need to do), we must also realize when certain communities seem uniquely vulnerable to radicalization, violence, and severe mental health issues.

Uh huh. So where is this data and research?

 

[RileyG]

In this context, yes. Both shooters (Aiden and Robin) referenced their transgender identity, gender dysphoria, and unhappiness with how they looked as a cause of their depression, anger, and (in Aiden's case) a desire to hurt others and to end their life.

This should worry people, especially people who care about the mental health, welfare, and status of transgender people. And who care about the people who may be targeted because of the mental health issues a transgender stranger is facing. Many, many, many of these people are not well.

It should be studied further. More research is needed. But many, many trans people are victims of brutal violence, rather than causing it.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

It should be studied further. More research is needed. But many, many trans people are victims of brutal violence, rather than causing it.

As I've stated elsewhere, yes, definitely. All of the transgender people I've met so far have been victims of childhood physical abuse, sexual abuse, or neglect. They also seem to be very, very vulnerable to depression, anxiety, and borderline personality disorder. Passing, trying to figure out one's identity, and not being accepted socially can have further negative impacts. Then again, these kids are trying to do the impossible; change their sex.

The surge in gender dysphoria being diagnosed over the past 10-15 years is worrying. And the fact that many providers see a transgender label and transition as the solution to dysphoria is worrying. Living as the opposite sex didn't cure Aiden or Robin's depression, anti-social tendencies, or underlying fixations on violence. It's also quite possible that the stresses and tensions of how they lived (or cross-sex hormones, if taken) made their mental health worse.

Both things can be true. One can be a victim, and ultimately turn out to be an abuser / active shooter. Keeping transgender people safe should be a priority. Finding other ways to treat dysphoria should be a priority. Keeping people safe from mentally unstable transgender people should be a priority, too.

 

[Aldebaran]

It appears that there was some confusion on your part during our back-and-forth discussion. I was always talking about the shooting that took place in Dayton.

Now I see the confusion. You're talking about a shooting in Dayton, OH in a thread titled:

Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis​

 

[Aldebaran]

Of course it does! Look at what trans people have to content with in this world. Its no wonder theyre having a harder time of it than non trans people.

What I completely reject is that "solving" trans people is going to solve the school (and other) shooting issue. If we locked up all the trans people forever, gun violence in the USA would still feel just as bad as it does now.

How's that? How would we be feeling bad about what just happened in Minneapolis if the guy who did it had been locked up? It wouldn't have even occurred! Isn't that the goal; to prevent the mass shootings from occurring?

 

[RileyG]

As I've stated elsewhere, yes, definitely. All of the transgender people I've met so far have been victims of childhood physical abuse, sexual abuse, or neglect. They also seem to be very, very vulnerable to depression, anxiety, and borderline personality disorder. Passing, trying to figure out one's identity, and not being accepted socially can have further negative impacts. Then again, these kids are trying to do the impossible; change their sex.

The surge in gender dysphoria being diagnosed over the past 10-15 years is worrying. And the fact that many providers see a transgender label and transition as the solution to dysphoria is worrying. Living as the opposite sex didn't cure Aiden or Robin's depression, anti-social tendencies, or underlying fixations on violence. It's also quite possible that the stresses and tensions of how they lived (or cross-sex hormones, if taken) made their mental health worse.

Both things can be true. One can be a victim, and ultimately turn out to be an abuser / active shooter. Keeping transgender people safe should be a priority. Finding other ways to treat dysphoria should be a priority. Keeping people safe from mentally unstable transgender people should be a priority, too.

I agree completely. Well said.