Can Salvation be lost?

[Carl Emerson]

Revelation and reason are not enemies....

I never said they were, I said Revelation was primary.

(Sorry by the way, the website is down in the quotes department.)

 

[Carl Emerson]

“Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate.”

You seem to assume this refers to forward foreknowing of works.

It was however, a relational calling not associated with works at all.

The calling of Jacob before birth is conformation of this.

.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Recognizing that God gives man a real choice does not put man at the center.

Yes it does, this makes it Mans call, not God's calling.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That is a way to avoid dealing with the evidence.

No it's not - it is not joining in the endless destructive arguments so common here that rarely lead to fruitful enlightenment.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That may be true in some cases, but it is not universally true.

I didn't say it was.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Salvation is absolutely by grace. But grace is not coercion.

This denies God's prerogative to choose.

To the chosen God's Love is irresistable.

 

[Carl Emerson]

He does not arbitrarily exclude people from salvation.

Correct - His choosing is not arbitrary, it is a divine choice.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have raised the issue of Amazing Grace yet no one has responded.

John Newton was a brute of a man yet chosen of God.

He concludes Grace alone saved Him.

Was he wrong ???

Should we no longer sing "Amazing Grace"

 

[Carl Emerson]

Romans 9
Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.


That says it all - That is all I am saying.

 

[David Lamb]

I have raised the issue of Amazing Grace yet no one has responded.

John Newton was a brute of a man yet chosen of God.

He concludes Grace alone saved Him.

Was he wrong ???

Definitely not wrong.

Should we no longer sing "Amazing Grace"

Sing it and believe it. Like Newton, I can say, "I once was lost, but now am found; Was blind, but now I see."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"A belief in Grace alone makes God into a tyrant."

It’s not grace that makes God seem like a tyrant. It’s the distortion of grace into something irresistible and coercive that does. The Bible says, “The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11). That grace teaches and invites, but never forces. God offering salvation through grace to all, while holding individuals accountable for their response, is perfectly just and consistent with His love and holiness. Coercion is not grace.

"Revelation is primary."

Yes, revelation is primary. But reason is not its enemy. God calls us to reason with Him (Isaiah 1:18), and the Spirit of truth helps us understand divine revelation (John 16:13). Reason, under the light of revelation, leads to clarity, not contradiction. There is nothing spiritual about rejecting thoughtful, Spirit-led reasoning based on Scripture.

“You assume foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 means foresight of works. It’s relational.”

Romans 8:29 says, “Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate.” The Greek word proginōskō literally means to know beforehand. This is confirmed by 1 Peter 1:2, which says believers are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” That foreknowledge includes God's knowledge of how we would respond to His call. Jacob and Esau were chosen for roles, not salvation. Esau was rejected for his future rebellion (Hebrews 12:16 to 17). This is not about arbitrary love or hate, but God acting in perfect knowledge of future decisions.

“Giving man a real choice puts man at the center.”

This is a mischaracterization. God giving man a choice magnifies His sovereignty, not man’s importance. God is still the author of salvation, the initiator of grace, and the Judge of all. Joshua 24:15 says, “Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” God clearly honors human responsibility while maintaining His rule over all. Real love requires a real choice.

“It’s not evasion. It’s avoiding endless destructive arguments.”

Avoiding dialogue when Scripture is being presented is not wisdom. It is evasion. Proverbs 27:17 says, “Iron sharpeneth iron.” Paul reasoned with people from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2), and Peter told believers to be ready to give an answer (1 Peter 3:15). Truth does not fear discussion. It thrives in it. To avoid biblical challenges is to shield one’s position from correction.

“To the chosen, God’s love is irresistible.”

Scripture refutes the idea that God’s grace is irresistible. Acts 7:51 says, “Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost.” Jesus Himself lamented over Jerusalem, saying, “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). God’s love invites, but it does not override the will. Forced love is not love at all. It is control, which God does not use to bring about genuine faith.

“God’s choice is not arbitrary. It is divine.”

That is a distinction without a difference if God’s choice is disconnected from foreseen faith. According to Scripture, God judges every man according to his deeds (Romans 2:6). The elect are chosen through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13). If God’s choosing is not rooted in anything seen or known in the person, especially faith, then it is by definition arbitrary. Divine choice does not mean blind choice.

“Romans 9 says it all. That’s all I’m saying.”

Romans 9 does not say what you are claiming it says. It must be read in context with the rest of the book of Romans, especially chapters 9 through 11.

The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind, how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they believed they found favor with God based on their nationality, in that they were God's people, Israel.

Romans 9:6 to 8 is a refutation of the Israelites' false belief in salvific nationalism.

Romans 9:9 to 16 is a refutation of the Israelites' false belief in “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace), but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).

Romans 9:17 to 18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelites, being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms, in that we know a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens his heart, he can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (see Hebrews 3:12 to 15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening his heart against God on account of his sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).

Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining, asking how God can find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as Israelites.

Romans 9:20 is a voice answering the Israelite and criticizing him. The voice asks a question from the Israelite’s perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e., as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”

When reading Romans 9:21 to 23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge, His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do (1 Peter 1:1 to 2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18, about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation responds. If a nation does not hear His voice, He will turn back from the good He intended to do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil against them unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of the damned (the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (see Romans 2:6).

Romans 9:30 to 32 clarifies what was being said:

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone” (Romans 9:30 to 32).

Romans 11:11 reaffirms this conclusion:

“…rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”

So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.

Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 about God's calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person.

“For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14).

 

[Carl Emerson]

It’s not grace that makes God seem like a tyrant. It’s the distortion of grace into something irresistible and coercive that does. The Bible says, “The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11). That grace teaches and invites, but never forces. God offering salvation through grace to all, while holding individuals accountable for their response, is perfectly just and consistent with His love and holiness. Coercion is not grace.


Yes, revelation is primary. But reason is not its enemy. God calls us to reason with Him (Isaiah 1:18), and the Spirit of truth helps us understand divine revelation (John 16:13). Reason, under the light of revelation, leads to clarity, not contradiction. There is nothing spiritual about rejecting thoughtful, Spirit-led reasoning based on Scripture.



Romans 8:29 says, “Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate.” The Greek word proginōskō literally means to know beforehand. This is confirmed by 1 Peter 1:2, which says believers are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” That foreknowledge includes God's knowledge of how we would respond to His call. Jacob and Esau were chosen for roles, not salvation. Esau was rejected for his future rebellion (Hebrews 12:16 to 17). This is not about arbitrary love or hate, but God acting in perfect knowledge of future decisions.



This is a mischaracterization. God giving man a choice magnifies His sovereignty, not man’s importance. God is still the author of salvation, the initiator of grace, and the Judge of all. Joshua 24:15 says, “Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” God clearly honors human responsibility while maintaining His rule over all. Real love requires a real choice.



Avoiding dialogue when Scripture is being presented is not wisdom. It is evasion. Proverbs 27:17 says, “Iron sharpeneth iron.” Paul reasoned with people from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2), and Peter told believers to be ready to give an answer (1 Peter 3:15). Truth does not fear discussion. It thrives in it. To avoid biblical challenges is to shield one’s position from correction.



Scripture refutes the idea that God’s grace is irresistible. Acts 7:51 says, “Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost.” Jesus Himself lamented over Jerusalem, saying, “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). God’s love invites, but it does not override the will. Forced love is not love at all. It is control, which God does not use to bring about genuine faith.



That is a distinction without a difference if God’s choice is disconnected from foreseen faith. According to Scripture, God judges every man according to his deeds (Romans 2:6). The elect are chosen through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13). If God’s choosing is not rooted in anything seen or known in the person, especially faith, then it is by definition arbitrary. Divine choice does not mean blind choice.



Romans 9 does not say what you are claiming it says. It must be read in context with the rest of the book of Romans, especially chapters 9 through 11.

The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind, how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they believed they found favor with God based on their nationality, in that they were God's people, Israel.

Romans 9:6 to 8 is a refutation of the Israelites' false belief in salvific nationalism.

Romans 9:9 to 16 is a refutation of the Israelites' false belief in “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace), but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).

Romans 9:17 to 18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelites, being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms, in that we know a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens his heart, he can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (see Hebrews 3:12 to 15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening his heart against God on account of his sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).

Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining, asking how God can find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as Israelites.

Romans 9:20 is a voice answering the Israelite and criticizing him. The voice asks a question from the Israelite’s perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e., as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”

When reading Romans 9:21 to 23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge, His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do (1 Peter 1:1 to 2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18, about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation responds. If a nation does not hear His voice, He will turn back from the good He intended to do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil against them unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of the damned (the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (see Romans 2:6).

Romans 9:30 to 32 clarifies what was being said:

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone” (Romans 9:30 to 32).

Romans 11:11 reaffirms this conclusion:

“…rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”

So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.

Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 about God's calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person.

“For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14).

I did not say belief in grace alone makes God into a tyrant. I was referring to an argument often used by those who support UR. (which I don't)

We agree reason is not primary.

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
(this is though the work of the spirit not human effort.)

Truth does not come from playing the game of scripture 'ping pong' as happens so often on this forum.

You continue to suggest that man has control over the salvation process when John clearly says being born again is not actioned by the will of man... Since when does God NOT have ultimate control over the affairs of man ?

God does not choose based on what He knows we will do. What we do is because He has chosen to do His good works through us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not say belief in grace alone makes God into a tyrant. I was referring to an argument often used by those who support UR. (which I don't)

That is a dodge. You are trying to dismiss a valid objection by blaming it on a group we both disagree with. But the issue stands on its own both biblically and morally despite the errors of Universalists.

I am not a Universalist, yet I also reject the doctrine of Unconditional Election because it makes God appear unjust and tyrannical. According to your system, many are condemned eternally without ever having a real chance to believe, since they were never chosen or enabled to respond. That is not love. That is not justice. That is not the God revealed in Scripture.

This concern is not exclusive to Universalists. Many Bible-believing Christians recognize that if God chooses to save some and not others apart from any condition, and never gives the non-elect the ability to respond, then that turns grace into favoritism and denies the clear teaching that

“God is no respecter of persons” (Acts 10:34)
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4)
“The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9)

If those verses mean what they plainly say, then unconditional election cannot be true. God offers salvation to all, and He judges justly because His offer is real, not selective or forced.

We agree reason is not primary.

Yes, reason is not primary in the sense that it is not the source of truth. God's revelation is. But that does not mean reason is set aside. While reason alone is not primary, it is not set aside at the expense of reason either.

God gave us reason so we could understand, compare, and obey His revealed Word. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), to prove all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21), and to compare spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13).

You claim to uphold revelation as supreme, but then reject the very reasoning from Scripture that refutes your belief. That is not faithfulness to revelation. That is avoiding the parts of revelation that expose the flaws of your system.

Isaiah 1:18 says, “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord.” Paul reasoned out of the Scriptures (Acts 17:2), and the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily to verify the truth (Acts 17:11). Truth is not established by rejecting reasoning. It is established by submitting all reasoning to Scripture.

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
(this is though the work of the spirit not human effort.)

That passage agrees with me, not you. It says believers are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit.” That means God chooses based on His foreknowledge. The Spirit’s sanctifying work does not occur in a vacuum. It is connected to those who respond to God by faith.

Election is never described in Scripture as an arbitrary choice without regard to human response. Romans 8:29 says, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.” God’s choosing is perfectly aligned with what He foreknows, including the faith of those who will respond.

Truth does not come from playing the game of scripture 'ping pong' as happens so often on this forum.

What you call ping pong, the Bible calls comparing Scripture with Scripture. This is how the Bereans were praised for testing Paul’s doctrine (Acts 17:11). Paul reasoned from the Scriptures repeatedly (Acts 17:2), and 1 Corinthians 2:13 commands us to compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Truth is not discovered through disconnected claims or theological slogans. It is found in diligent study and proper interpretation, comparing all of Scripture faithfully. Rejecting this process is not spiritual maturity. It is a refusal to have your view tested.

You continue to suggest that man has control over the salvation process when John clearly says being born again is not actioned by the will of man...

John 1:12 must come before verse 13. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Belief and receiving Christ come before the new birth.

Verse 13 shows that the new birth is not produced by human lineage, effort, or fleshly will, but it does not say man has no responsibility to believe. God saves by His power, but He saves those who believe. That is why the command to repent and believe is repeated throughout Scripture (Mark 1:15, Acts 17:30, John 3:16).

Since when does God NOT have ultimate control over the affairs of man ?

God absolutely has ultimate control. But the real question is, how does He exercise that control? Scripture shows that God’s sovereignty includes allowing man to respond freely and then holding him accountable for his response.

Galatians 6:7 says, “Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” This would be meaningless if man had no real choice. Ezekiel 33:11 shows God's heart: “Why will ye die, O house of Israel? Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?” This is God pleading with those He created—not controlling their response, but calling them to repent.

God does not choose based on what He knows we will do. What we do is because He has chosen to do His good works through us.

That reverses the order of Romans 8:29. “Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.” It does not say, “Whom he did predestinate, he foreknew.” You cannot flip the verse without twisting its meaning.

1 Peter 1:2 also says believers are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” That means God’s choice is in agreement with what He already knows about our response—not blind, not arbitrary, not forced.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You claim to uphold revelation as supreme, but then reject the very reasoning from Scripture that refutes your belief.

Not so, I just disagree with your interpretations.

Why should I trust a Noname on cyberspace to flawlessly interpret Scripture?

 

[Carl Emerson]

That is a dodge. You are trying to dismiss a valid objection by blaming it on a group we both disagree with. But the issue stands on its own both biblically and morally despite the errors of Universalists.

Fine you think that because God chooses He must be a tyrant !!!

 

[Carl Emerson]

You claim to uphold revelation as supreme, but then reject the very reasoning from Scripture that refutes your belief.

No I reject your version of Scriptural interpretation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

God saves by His power, but He saves those who believe. That is why the command to repent and believe is repeated throughout Scripture (Mark 1:15, Acts 17:30, John 3:16).

Where does the Grace to believe come from ?

Where does the Grace to repent come from ?

Why does Jesus peach in parables so the unchosen will not understand and believe?

Anyway you support your theology well with Scripture but sadly it is no more than that - your theology.

 

[FredVB]

God does not exclude anyone by God's will. God is caring, and being unlimited as God is God's caring is not limited. None are created to perish, all who would repent of being contrary to God with their lives should be brought to that repentance, to be restored to God as Christ made possible through him. None are kept from that and are provided opportunities, which we here should increase, and their own resistance is to blame if they will not. Some may go along with those of faith but without repentance they will fall away at some time when coming to a challenge.

 

[Carl Emerson]

None are created to perish

This denies God's right to choose before birth - clearly stated in Romans 9

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 And not only that, but there was also Rebekah, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[zoidar]

This denies God's right to choose before birth - clearly stated in Romans 9

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 And not only that, but there was also Rebekah, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

That is if you believe this to be about individual salvation.