Do the Ten Commandments still apply under the new covenant today?

[JesusFollowerForever]

It's very important.


Jesus fulfilled the law, yes... according to the Bible.
Where did Jesus show us the true meaning, in the Bible?

It was foretold through the prophet Isaiah that the Servant of God ( see Isaiah 42:1-4 about Christ) would come to magnify the law and make it honorable, "The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable."(Isaiah 42:21) showing that the law had been misunderstood and misused by those who claimed to teach it. When Jesus came, He fulfilled this by teaching the deeper meaning and spirit behind each command, not just the outward action. He often confronted the Pharisees and teachers of the law because they placed their own traditions and interpretations above God's commandments. They focused on the appearance of righteousness, but their hearts were far from God, making the law burdensome and empty of mercy and truth (Matthew 15:1-9, Matthew 23:1-36, Mark 7:1-13). Jesus made it clear that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it—by living it perfectly and teaching it as it was meant to be lived (Matthew 5:17-20). Through His teachings, especially in the Sermon on the Mount, (Mattthew 5:1-12)He showed that the commandments go beyond actions and reach into the thoughts and intentions of the heart, revealing God's true standard of holiness. In (Matthew 5:21-48) Jesus gave examples of the spirit of the law.

see also a post i did a while back it contains more info:

Jesus Magnified the Ten Commandments

The Ten Commandments, given to Moses on Mount Sinai, serve as a foundation for both Jewish and Christian ethics. When Jesus came, He not only fulfilled the Law but also magnified it, deepening its meaning and bringing it to its fullest expression. This concept is rooted in prophecy, particularly...

www.christianforums.com

I will cut my replies to you for this post because it would be too long for a single post, the rest to follow soon.

Blessings

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Since you agree " it is important to understand what the Bible truly says", where does the Bible say the ten commandments were given "to Israel and all who believe in Him?
Jesus was speaking with Israelites - those in the covenant agreement, when he mentioned those commandments, wasn't he?

From the start, when God gave the law at Mount Sinai, He said it was a covenant with Israel (Exodus 19:5-6). But even then, it was never meant to be exclusive. When the Israelites left Egypt, many non-Israelites (a mixed multitude) joined them and stood with them at Sinai (Exodus 12:38, Deuteronomy 29:10-15). Later, the prophets made it clear that God’s law would be written in the hearts of His people, and His salvation would be offered to the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, not just native Israelites (Isaiah 56:6-7). This shows that the covenant and the commandments were always meant to reach beyond the borders of Israel.

When Jesus gave the Great Commission to His twelve disciples, He removed all doubt about who was to receive His teachings. He told them to go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe everything He had commanded them (Matthew 28:19-20). That includes His teachings on the commandments (Matthew 5:17-19). Jesus didn’t say to teach something new to the Gentiles and something else to Israel. The same commandments He honored and taught were to be passed on to every nation, every disciple.

So yes, Jesus was speaking to Israelites when He gave His teachings, but His own words in the Great Commission show that the same teachings—including the commandments—were to be spread to all who believe in Him. The covenant that started with Israel became open to all through faith in Him.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I understand that you think it means the ten commandment are written in a new way, but since you said "it is important to understand what the Bible truly says", rather than say what you think it means, should you not rather show from the Bible what it means?
The Bible truly says that the law.... which is not only the ten commandments, is not binding on those who belong to Christ, because its purpose has been accomplished.

Here, please read it for yourself. There are right there in the Bible.

Romans 10:4 . . .For Christ is the end [telos: End, purpose, goal, completion, fulfillment] of the law . . .​

​

Romans 7:6 But now we have been released [katargeó: To abolish, to nullify, to render ineffective, to bring to an end] from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, in order for us to serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.​

​

Colossians 2:14 having blotted out [exaleiphó: To wipe out, to blot out, to erase, to obliterate] the handwriting in the decrees against us, which was adverse to us. And He has taken [airó: To lift, to take up, to raise, to remove, to carry away] it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

​

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing [katargeó: To abolish, to nullify, to render ineffective, to bring to an end] in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees.​

This is what the Bible truly says.
How is it you don't know this? How do you read?

Do you know the purpose the law served, and how it was accomplished?
That too, is in the Bible.
Galatians 3:24, 25
24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Do you still want to be under that tutor?
God does not want you to be.
In fact, to want that, and to seek is, is to go against the commandments of God.
Here is what the Bible truly says...
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It is indeed very serious, so as you rightly said, "it is important to understand what the Bible truly says about the law".


It means more than that.
The Bible truly says what it means, and I hope the verses mentioned above, are taken as the correct understanding, because what some think it means, falls short of what the Bible truly says.
Gentiles were never under the law, or in the covenant agreement.

So, "we" do not really count here, as being "under the law".
This is what the Bible says...
Ephesians 2:14, 15 For He Himself is our peace, having made both one and having broken down the barrier of the partition of hostility, having annulled in His flesh the law of commandments in ordinances, so that He might create in Himself the two into one new man, making peace,

The law was a barrier to Gentiles being party to the covenant, and the benefits the Jews had.
Removing it is a blessing, not a curse. Galatians 3:10-14
Why do you want a curse?

Let us focus on what the prophets, Jesus, and the twelve disciples said about the law for a moment and who it was for. Let’s allow God’s voice and Jesus’ own teaching to lead the answer, and in the end, we’ll see how the law truly applies to all who follow Christ—not for justification by works, but as part of a covenant walk of faith and love.

From the beginning, God made it clear that His law was meant to be a blessing and a light to the nations, not a curse or a wall. When God chose Israel, He said they were to be a kingdom of priests, an example to the other nations (Exodus 19:5-6). The Ten Commandments, spoken directly by God Himself (Exodus 20:1), were given as the foundation of His covenant, written with His own finger (Exodus 31:18). These commandments were not invented for the first time at Sinai—they reflected God's eternal character and will. The Sabbath, for example, was blessed and made holy at creation, before there was any nation called Israel (Genesis 2:2-3).

The prophets spoke of a time when God’s law would not be abolished, but written in the hearts of His people, part of the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). This includes Gentiles who join themselves to the Lord to love Him and serve Him (Isaiah 56:6-7). The law was never meant to be a curse. The curse came from disobedience, not from the law itself (Deuteronomy 11:26-28, Deuteronomy 27:26). The problem was not the law—it was the hardness of human hearts.

Now listen to Jesus’ own words, because He is our Teacher, our Lord, and the One whom God said we must hear (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!” Matthew 17:5). Jesus said clearly: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). Some say “fulfill” means “cancel,” but Jesus immediately explains what He means: “Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:18). Heaven and earth are still here. Then He warns: “Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19). These are Jesus’ words, not man’s opinion.

When Jesus was asked what one must do to enter life, He answered: “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). And He listed commandments from the Ten Commandments. When a teacher of the law asked Jesus which commandment was the greatest, He answered with two commandments based on love—for God and for neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40), and said: “On these two hang all the Law and the Prophets.” That means love is the foundation and purpose of the law—not a replacement.

In His final words to the twelve disciples before ascending to heaven, Jesus gave a clear mission: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). Jesus did not command the disciples to throw away the commandments. He told them to teach the nations everything He had taught—including how to live by God’s law with love, mercy, and justice.

The wall between Jew and Gentile that Jesus broke down was not the Ten Commandments. It was the man-made laws, traditions, and barriers that kept Gentiles out of worship and covenant (Mark 7:6-9, Matthew 23:4). That’s why He said: “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations” (Isaiah 56:7, quoted in Mark 11:17).

To say the law is no longer for believers contradicts not only the Old Testament but also the very teachings of Jesus. The law is not a ladder to earn salvation, but a mirror to show God’s will and character. We are not saved by law-keeping, but we are not free to sin either (Matthew 7:21-23, John 14:15).

So yes, the purpose of the law—to lead us to Christ—is fulfilled when we come to Him in faith. But as Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). And the final book, Revelation, speaks clearly of those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

This is what the Bible truly says, from the mouth of God, His prophets, and His Son. The Ten Commandments were given to Israel and to all who believe in Him, as part of an everlasting covenant of love. Not to justify us, but to guide us in walking as Jesus walked.

When Jesus gave the Great Commission, He told His disciples to go to all nations—not just Israel—and "teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:19-20). Jesus did not cancel the law; He explained it in its true meaning, rooted in love, mercy, and justice. His words were not only for the Jews but for everyone who would follow Him.

Jesus warned us about false teachers and told us to test all who come in His name. God already gave us the test through Moses: “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder... saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for The Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice...” (Deuteronomy 13:1–4). Any teaching that leads people away from God's commandments is a test—and we must choose to remain faithful to God.

Peter, one of Jesus’ twelve, also gave us a warning. He said that some of Paul's writings are hard to understand and that “untaught and unstable people twist [them] to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures” (2 Peter 3:16). This shows that we must not build our beliefs on difficult or unclear teachings, especially if they seem to go against what Jesus clearly said. Jesus is the foundation. He is the one God told us to listen to (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Matthew 17:5). He was given “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18), and no one—not even a prophet or apostle—has the right to change what He commanded.

In the end, each person must make a choice: will you follow the clear voice of God and His Son, who said to keep the commandments and walk in love and truth? Or will you follow teachings that lead away from them, even if they seem to sound right? God has spoken. Jesus has taught. The commandments are not to save us, but to show us how to walk in the way of life.

Sorry if these posts were so long. I have told you the truth from the bible as I have received it from the Holy Spirit.

Blessings.

 

[Clare73]

Personally, I don't like the word obselete here. Fulfilled is better.

I'm sure the hosts of heaven appreciate the good advice here on improving God's perfect God-breathed (theopnuestos, 2 Tim 3:16) word.

That leaves us on separate and irreconcilable pages, for I view God's word as authoritative, while you view it as negotiable.

 

[Sam91]

I'm sure the hosts of heaven appreciate the good advice here on improving God's perfect God-breathed (theopnuestos, 2 Tim 3:16) word.

That leaves us on separate and irreconcilable pages, for I view God's word as authoritative, while you view it as negotiable.

Perhaps the underlined apology wasn't seen along with my admission that yeah it was translated with that word from the greek by many versions and that i obviously have connotations attached to the word.

(The quoted secion of mine responded to was before I had a turn around in opinion after checking out the text in response and had made an edit to acknowledge the change in view. I left the original comment to stand as is in order to show that about turn.

However, the flippancy with which Heavenly things are treated in the response to my post does back up my previous concern. Perhaps the original conviction does stand but with how the verse was being used)

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps the underlined apology wasn't seen along with my admission that yeah it was translated with that word from the greek by many versions and that i obviously have connotations attached to the word.

(The quoted secion of mine responded to was before I had a turn around in opinion

I guess I missed that. . .perhaps the acknowledgement should have been added at the beginning.

after checking out the text in response and had made an edit to acknowledge the change in view. I left the original comment to stand as is in order to show that about turn.
However, the flippancy with which Heavenly things are treated in the response to my post does back up my previous concern.

Which flippancy was to mirror back the flippancy of challenging the God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) text of Heb 8:13.

Perhaps the original conviction does stand but with how the verse was being used)

The word of Heb 8:13 is aphanismos, (a negative phaino--to cause to appear), so the meaning is "to cause to disappear, vanishing."

The verse speaks for itself. . .what it means is how it is being used.
Your issue was with what it actually means; i.e., the old covenant is vanished.

And that was the real issue there.

 

[CoreyD]

It was foretold through the prophet Isaiah that the Servant of God ( see Isaiah 42:1-4 about Christ) would come to magnify the law and make it honorable, "The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable."(Isaiah 42:21) showing that the law had been misunderstood and misused by those who claimed to teach it. When Jesus came, He fulfilled this by teaching the deeper meaning and spirit behind each command, not just the outward action. He often confronted the Pharisees and teachers of the law because they placed their own traditions and interpretations above God's commandments. They focused on the appearance of righteousness, but their hearts were far from God, making the law burdensome and empty of mercy and truth (Matthew 15:1-9, Matthew 23:1-36, Mark 7:1-13). Jesus made it clear that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it—by living it perfectly and teaching it as it was meant to be lived (Matthew 5:17-20). Through His teachings, especially in the Sermon on the Mount, (Mattthew 5:1-12)He showed that the commandments go beyond actions and reach into the thoughts and intentions of the heart, revealing God's true standard of holiness. In (Matthew 5:21-48) Jesus gave examples of the spirit of the law.

see also a post i did a while back it contains more info:

Jesus Magnified the Ten Commandments

The Ten Commandments, given to Moses on Mount Sinai, serve as a foundation for both Jewish and Christian ethics. When Jesus came, He not only fulfilled the Law but also magnified it, deepening its meaning and bringing it to its fullest expression. This concept is rooted in prophecy, particularly...

www.christianforums.com

I will cut my replies to you for this post because it would be too long for a single post, the rest to follow soon.

Blessings

Thank you.
So your scriptures confirm that it was the nation of Israel to whom the law was given, and who failed to keep it, due to the corrupted priests and teachers of the law, leading all the way down to the 1st century, where Jesus exposed the Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees.
Why then, please, are you insisting on Gentiles being the ones taught how to keep the law covenant?
This is your thinking, is it?

 

[CoreyD]

From the start, when God gave the law at Mount Sinai, He said it was a covenant with Israel (Exodus 19:5-6). But even then, it was never meant to be exclusive. When the Israelites left Egypt, many non-Israelites (a mixed multitude) joined them and stood with them at Sinai (Exodus 12:38, Deuteronomy 29:10-15). Later, the prophets made it clear that God’s law would be written in the hearts of His people, and His salvation would be offered to the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, not just native Israelites (Isaiah 56:6-7). This shows that the covenant and the commandments were always meant to reach beyond the borders of Israel.

When Jesus gave the Great Commission to His twelve disciples, He removed all doubt about who was to receive His teachings. He told them to go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe everything He had commanded them (Matthew 28:19-20). That includes His teachings on the commandments (Matthew 5:17-19). Jesus didn’t say to teach something new to the Gentiles and something else to Israel. The same commandments He honored and taught were to be passed on to every nation, every disciple.

So yes, Jesus was speaking to Israelites when He gave His teachings, but His own words in the Great Commission show that the same teachings—including the commandments—were to be spread to all who believe in Him. The covenant that started with Israel became open to all through faith in Him.

Thank you.
So, in order to be in the covenant one had to join themselves to the nation of Israel, and be obedient along with them. Is that correct?
What happened to the covenant?

 

[CoreyD]

Let us focus on what the prophets, Jesus, and the twelve disciples said about the law for a moment and who it was for. Let’s allow God’s voice and Jesus’ own teaching to lead the answer, and in the end, we’ll see how the law truly applies to all who follow Christ—not for justification by works, but as part of a covenant walk of faith and love.

From the beginning, God made it clear that His law was meant to be a blessing and a light to the nations, not a curse or a wall. When God chose Israel, He said they were to be a kingdom of priests, an example to the other nations (Exodus 19:5-6). The Ten Commandments, spoken directly by God Himself (Exodus 20:1), were given as the foundation of His covenant, written with His own finger (Exodus 31:18). These commandments were not invented for the first time at Sinai—they reflected God's eternal character and will. The Sabbath, for example, was blessed and made holy at creation, before there was any nation called Israel (Genesis 2:2-3).

The prophets spoke of a time when God’s law would not be abolished, but written in the hearts of His people, part of the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). This includes Gentiles who join themselves to the Lord to love Him and serve Him (Isaiah 56:6-7). The law was never meant to be a curse. The curse came from disobedience, not from the law itself (Deuteronomy 11:26-28, Deuteronomy 27:26). The problem was not the law—it was the hardness of human hearts.

Now listen to Jesus’ own words, because He is our Teacher, our Lord, and the One whom God said we must hear (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!” Matthew 17:5). Jesus said clearly: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). Some say “fulfill” means “cancel,” but Jesus immediately explains what He means: “Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:18). Heaven and earth are still here. Then He warns: “Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19). These are Jesus’ words, not man’s opinion.

When Jesus was asked what one must do to enter life, He answered: “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). And He listed commandments from the Ten Commandments. When a teacher of the law asked Jesus which commandment was the greatest, He answered with two commandments based on love—for God and for neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40), and said: “On these two hang all the Law and the Prophets.” That means love is the foundation and purpose of the law—not a replacement.

In His final words to the twelve disciples before ascending to heaven, Jesus gave a clear mission: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). Jesus did not command the disciples to throw away the commandments. He told them to teach the nations everything He had taught—including how to live by God’s law with love, mercy, and justice.

The wall between Jew and Gentile that Jesus broke down was not the Ten Commandments. It was the man-made laws, traditions, and barriers that kept Gentiles out of worship and covenant (Mark 7:6-9, Matthew 23:4). That’s why He said: “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations” (Isaiah 56:7, quoted in Mark 11:17).

To say the law is no longer for believers contradicts not only the Old Testament but also the very teachings of Jesus. The law is not a ladder to earn salvation, but a mirror to show God’s will and character. We are not saved by law-keeping, but we are not free to sin either (Matthew 7:21-23, John 14:15).

So yes, the purpose of the law—to lead us to Christ—is fulfilled when we come to Him in faith. But as Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). And the final book, Revelation, speaks clearly of those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

This is what the Bible truly says, from the mouth of God, His prophets, and His Son. The Ten Commandments were given to Israel and to all who believe in Him, as part of an everlasting covenant of love. Not to justify us, but to guide us in walking as Jesus walked.

When Jesus gave the Great Commission, He told His disciples to go to all nations—not just Israel—and "teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:19-20). Jesus did not cancel the law; He explained it in its true meaning, rooted in love, mercy, and justice. His words were not only for the Jews but for everyone who would follow Him.

Jesus warned us about false teachers and told us to test all who come in His name. God already gave us the test through Moses: “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder... saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for The Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice...” (Deuteronomy 13:1–4). Any teaching that leads people away from God's commandments is a test—and we must choose to remain faithful to God.

Peter, one of Jesus’ twelve, also gave us a warning. He said that some of Paul's writings are hard to understand and that “untaught and unstable people twist [them] to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures” (2 Peter 3:16). This shows that we must not build our beliefs on difficult or unclear teachings, especially if they seem to go against what Jesus clearly said. Jesus is the foundation. He is the one God told us to listen to (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Matthew 17:5). He was given “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18), and no one—not even a prophet or apostle—has the right to change what He commanded.

In the end, each person must make a choice: will you follow the clear voice of God and His Son, who said to keep the commandments and walk in love and truth? Or will you follow teachings that lead away from them, even if they seem to sound right? God has spoken. Jesus has taught. The commandments are not to save us, but to show us how to walk in the way of life.

Sorry if these posts were so long. I have told you the truth from the bible as I have received it from the Holy Spirit.

Blessings.

That's okay.
I can handle long posts, unlike the majority of people. Listening is a hobby of mine.
I like to step through it, with baby steps, but especially, I like to zero in on responses to scriptures I post.
Please tell me about Colossians 2:14, and Ephesians 2:14, 15.

You said...

The wall between Jew and Gentile that Jesus broke down was not the Ten Commandments. It was the man-made laws, traditions, and barriers that kept Gentiles out of worship and covenant (Mark 7:6-9, Matthew 23:4). That’s why He said: “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations” (Isaiah 56:7, quoted in Mark 11:17).

First of all, that is not true, since the law was never the ten commandments alone, and the scripture says, very clearly in verses 11, to 13, that these ordinances, were of the law covenant. Also, this is according to Colossians 2:14
Tell me about that verse, please.

What you have said, therefore, is not what the scriptures really say, but it is what you believe.
Please feel free to object, but please focus on the scriptures Ephesians 2:11-18, and tell me about Colossians 2:14, and it's sister witness Ephesians 2:15.
Remember, it is the scriptures we want to listen to. Not our thinking.
Scripture supports scripture... At the mouth of two or three witnesses. Not our own personal witness, which is our one voice, and not scripture.

Secondly, you said...

To say the law is no longer for believers contradicts not only the Old Testament but also the very teachings of Jesus. The law is not a ladder to earn salvation, but a mirror to show God’s will and character. We are not saved by law-keeping, but we are not free to sin either (Matthew 7:21-23, John 14:15).

"No longer", suggests that it once was"
According to Paul's letters to the Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and a few other Congregations, the Jews were in the covenant. Not Gentiles. Please refer to the scriptures I posted.

Third, you said...

So yes, the purpose of the law—to lead us to Christ—is fulfilled when we come to Him in faith. But as Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). And the final book, Revelation, speaks clearly of those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

This reminds me, you did not answer my question.
Why do you take the word commandment to mean the ten commandments?

The purpose of the law was mentioned in Galatians 3. The purpose was accomplished.
Do you agree?

If it's possible, it would be nice if you can keep it short and to the point this time, since you are responding to specific points regarding specific scriptures, and your already stated points.
Thank you.

 

[Sam91]

I guess I missed that. . .perhaps the acknowledgement should have been added at the beginning.

Which flippancy was to mirror back the flippancy of challenging the God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) text of Heb 8:13.

The word of Heb 8:13 is aphanismos, (a negative phaino--to cause to appear), so the meaning is "to cause to disappear, vanishing."

The verse speaks for itself. . .what it means is how it is being used.
Your issue was with what it actually means; i.e., the old covenant is vanished.

And that was the real issue there.

It wasn't, I just associate 'obselete' as a very negative thing. (Eg ready for a scrapheap, or an offensive way elderly are portrayed as that is how I've heard it used in recent times and I later took responsibility for my issue with the word).

My study bible uses obselete.
In the footnotes it says:
"8:14 The new covenant makes the first one old (Gk. palaioõ), here translated obselete) --- so old like a person of extreme age (Gk. gēraskō, here translated growing old) and thus is near to disappearing (ready to vanish away)."
ESV Study Bible Large Print edition (2008) The words in bold or italicised is how they put it.

In context with the whole verse it is not offensive. In context with the whole chapter which shows the character of our Saviour it is beautiful. What isn't nice was seeing it as three words, never seen it like that before and at first didn't realise you had quoted, I thought they were your own words. Please do not cast aspersions on my character or pretend you know much about my faith and walk with God. I love scripture.

We worship and love the same Sovereign Creator, we love the same Saviour and Lord Christ Jesus. Let us not vex the Spirit by not speaking with care to each other. We ought to build each other up rather than be provoking. Let's be kind to one another as that is in keeping with the New Covenant that we both are under. I didn't mean to be unkind, but I could have worded better.

 

[CoreyD]

The prophets spoke of a time when God’s law would not be abolished, but written in the hearts of His people, part of the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). This includes Gentiles who join themselves to the Lord to love Him and serve Him (Isaiah 56:6-7). The law was never meant to be a curse. The curse came from disobedience, not from the law itself (Deuteronomy 11:26-28, Deuteronomy 27:26). The problem was not the law—it was the hardness of human hearts.

It's good we agree with Paul's words, at Romans 7:12
Would you like to explain please, what is the "curse of the law" Galatians 3:10-14, and why the law was [anóphelés: Useless, unprofitable], according to Paul's words at Hebrews 7:18, 19
Romans 8:3, 4 provides a good point of reference.

 

[Sam91]

The word of Heb 8:13 is aphanismos, (a negative phaino--to cause to appear), so the meaning is "to cause to disappear, vanishing."

The verse speaks for itself. . .what it means is how it is being used.
Your issue was with what it actually means; i.e., the old covenant is vanished.

I'll reply separately to this one so my message is less confusing.

Can we really say it has vanished? It says vanishing. While we are not under it, there is still much to be gained from the Old Testament. Israel's struggles to adhere to the law really do help us to understand why the New covenant is better. The sacrifices show us the cost of sin and inform our understanding of the cost of our redemption. Without it, Christ's sacrifice would not make much sense. So while the Old Covenant isn't what saves us, or how to live, it is still necessary for understanding the cost of sin or even the praise in revelation of:

"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,to receive power and wealth and wisdom and mightand honor and glory and blessing!" Revelations 5:12... infact readit from verse 9. That's so impactful as well.

The commandments Christ gave us were fuller than than the ones in the OT. The sermon on the mount and the chapters preceeding it (Matthew 5, 6 and 7) evidences this and is a beautiful part of scripture. This is not upsetting to me at all, for it is a delight to obey our Lord and we are given all the Help to do so.

 

[Clare73]

It wasn't, I just associate 'obselete' as a very negative thing. (Eg ready for a scrapheap, or an offensive way elderly are portrayed as that is how I've heard it used in recent times and I later took responsibility for my issue with the word).

My study bible uses obselete.
In the footnotes it says:
"8:14 The new covenant makes the first one old (Gk. palaioõ), here translated obselete) --- so old like a person of extreme age (Gk. gēraskō, here translated growing old) and thus is near to disappearing (ready to vanish away)."
ESV Study Bible Large Print edition (2008) The words in bold or italicised is how they put it.

In context with the whole verse it is not offensive. In context with the whole chapter which shows the character of our Saviour it is beautiful. What isn't nice was seeing it as three words, never seen it like that before and at first didn't realise you had quoted, I thought they were your own words. Please do not cast aspersions on my character or pretend you know much about my faith and walk with God. I love scripture.

We worship and love the same Sovereign Creator, we love the same Saviour and Lord Christ Jesus. Let us not vex the Spirit by not speaking with care to each other. We ought to build each other up rather than be provoking. Let's be kind to one another as that is in keeping with the New Covenant that we both are under. I didn't mean to be unkind, but I could have worded better.

With Scripture being the authoritative God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) word of that Sovereign Creator and Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ, I take issue with any reference to it being "negative," "offensive," etc.
I take issue with any judgment of it as capable of being improved upon in any way. I find that blasphemous. . .sinful man sitting in judgment on the holy word of the holy and righteous God.

 

[Sam91]

With Scripture being the authoritative God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) word of that Sovereign Creator and Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ, I take issue with any reference to it being "negative," "offensive," etc.
I take issue with any judgment of it as capable of being improved upon in any way. I find that blasphemous. . .sinful man sitting in judgment on the holy word of the holy and righteous God.

Perhaps we are speaking different languages. I don't think it is offensive in scripture. I said multiple times it was my own connotations and even said it is great in context.

 

[Clare73]

I'll reply separately to this one so my message is less confusing.

Can we really say it has vanished?

Can we really say there is a better way to state it than the way the all-wise God has stated it in his holy word of Heb 8:13?

Any attitude that steps into that blasphemous territory is the problem, as far as I am concerned.

While we are not under it, there is still much to be gained from the Old Testament.

The Old Covenant is not the Old Testament.
The Old Testament is 39 books of the Bible.
The Old Covenant is an expired contract of God.

Israel's struggles to adhere to the law really do help us to understand why the New covenant is better. The sacrifices show us the cost of sin and inform our understanding of the cost of our redemption. Without it, Christ's sacrifice would not make much sense. So while the Old Covenant isn't what saves us, or how to live, it is still necessary for understanding the cost of sin

It isn't the old covenant that gives us that understanding, it is the Old Testament that gives us that understanding.

 

[Sam91]

Can we really say there is a better way to state it than the way the all-wise God has stated it in his holy word?

Any attitude that steps into that blasphemous territory is the problem, as far as I am concerned.

The Old Covenant is not the Old Testament.
The Old Testament is 39 books of the Bible.
The Old Covenant is an expired contract of God.

It isn't the old covenant that gives us that understanding, it is the Old Testament that gives us that understanding.

There was no blasphemy committed by me. You used three words that I did not recognise from scripture. I thought they were your own words. However, I dutifully went to the verses anyway after as I study as I post. Then explained myself and offered an apology.

(The 10 commandments helped me begin to understand when I was about 6 years old, they were my yardstick untl I was born again at the age of 14, at which point I found I had to do so much more yet was empowered to do so by the Holy Spirit)

I shall not engage anymore as it is not fruitful and causing contention and we are commanded to treat each other better than this.

Grace and peace to you

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'll reply separately to this one so my message is less confusing.

Can we really say it has vanished? It says vanishing. While we are not under it, there is still much to be gained from the Old Testament. Israel's struggles to adhere to the law really do help us to understand why the New covenant is better. The sacrifices show us the cost of sin and inform our understanding of the cost of our redemption. Without it, Christ's sacrifice would not make much sense. So while the Old Covenant isn't what saves us, or how to live, it is still necessary for understanding the cost of sin or even the praise in revelation of:

"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,to receive power and wealth and wisdom and mightand honor and glory and blessing!" Revelations 5:12... infact readit from verse 9. That's so impactful as well.

The commandments Christ gave us were fuller than than the ones in the OT. The sermon on the mount and the chapters preceeding it (Matthew 5, 6 and 7) evidences this and is a beautiful part of scripture. This is not upsetting to me at all, for it is a delight to obey our Lord and we are given all the Help to do so.

Thankfully, God wrote a New Covenant that we are now under a much better one filled with much better promises! .

Many people teach the NC has all new laws, but does the Scriptures teach this?

The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments written on Stone

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

It was based on the power of the people doing

Exo 19:8 Then all the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.” So Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

Of course it didn't take long to break this covenant.

So God in His compassion for His people instead of discarding us, He writes a New Covenant.

However God said He would not alter the Words of His Covenant Psa 89:34, not a jot or tittle can pass Mat 5:18

So He instead makes a New Covenant still with Israel (we are grafted in through faith Gal 3:26-29) but established on better promises

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

It still has God's law, just as God promised He would not alter and He keeps His promises, because how can you make God's personal Testimony Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 written by our perfect Saviors own finger, more perfect Psa 19:7

So what He did is He internalized His law by writing it in our hearts and minds and now we can keep them based on what He will do, instead of keeping on our own strength, a much better promise.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

We still have to love and cooperate with Him, but He is the one doing now

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Why its still a sin to break the least of these commandments in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7 but now we can keep based on what God does, not on our own strength though our willingness and love to Him. Keeping in His strength is a much better promise along with having Him now as our High Priest and Mediator. God is so good.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Thank you.
So your scriptures confirm that it was the nation of Israel to whom the law was given, and who failed to keep it, due to the corrupted priests and teachers of the law, leading all the way down to the 1st century, where Jesus exposed the Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees.
Why then, please, are you insisting on Gentiles being the ones taught how to keep the law covenant?
This is your thinking, is it?

No not only the gentiles, Christ came first to his chosen people, the israelites, I thought it was clear, but this is what I meant, When God makes a promise He keeps it God does not change.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

It's good we agree with Paul's words, at Romans 7:12
Would you like to explain please, what is the "curse of the law" Galatians 3:10-14, and why the law was [anóphelés: Useless, unprofitable], according to Paul's words at Hebrews 7:18, 19
Romans 8:3, 4 provides a good point of reference.

Paul is interpreted by everyone differently, but to me Paul is saying the curse of the law is disobedience, not the law itself. it was unprofitable because they followed it without love and compassion.

in Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. the better hope is undoubtedly understanding the law through the Holy Spirit that was available after Christ ascension to heaven, is it why we are drawn to GOD and understand better according to the measure of the Spirit given us.

The reference given in rom 8:3-4 confirms this;
om 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

Rom 8:4 so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

This does not negate the law it confirms it!

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Thank you.
So, in order to be in the covenant one had to join themselves to the nation of Israel, and be obedient along with them. Is that correct?
What happened to the covenant?

yes correct, and nothing happened to the covenant, the non israelites were grafted in!

Jhn 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard.
Jhn 15:2 He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.
Jhn 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
Jhn 15:4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Jhn 15:7 If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Jhn 15:8 This is to My Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love.