Ideal expressions of love.

[MehGuy]

I am curious about what you believe is/are ideal expressions of love. Also what do you think are not ideal expressions of love that others might disagree with you on?

Are there any influences regarding why you think the way you do? Have your ideals been different in the past, and if so.. why?

 

[Zaha Torte]

I am curious about what you believe is/are ideal expressions of love. Also what do you think are not ideal expressions of love that others might disagree with you on?

Are there any influences regarding why you think the way you do? Have your ideals been different in the past, and if so.. why?

The Lord Jesus Christ is the perfect example of the ideal expression of love - submission to God and willingness to sacrifice for others.

 

[MehGuy]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the perfect example of the ideal expression of love - submission to God and willingness to sacrifice for others.

Will the capacity to love be somewhat diminished in heaven? I imagine in a place with no pain and sorrow, the sacrificial aspect of love will be irrelevant, or at least diminished?

 

[jacks]

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13

 

[Zaha Torte]

Will the capacity to love be somewhat diminished in heaven? I imagine in a place with no pain and sorrow, the sacrificial aspect of love will be irrelevant, or at least diminished?

Submission to God is a sacrifice. We are yielding up - or sacrificing - our preferences for His.

Without God there is no love.

 

[MehGuy]

Submission to God is a sacrifice. We are yielding up - or sacrificing - our preferences for His.

Without God there is no love.

You believe there is still sacrifice in heaven? Not that I do not respect your views, I was just raised with the idea that heaven reverts back to before the fall of man. No suffering of any kind. At least from this viewpoint some Christians share, a pain free existence has to have a dramatic effect on the types of love expressed. Especially the concept of sacrifice.

 

[Zaha Torte]

You believe there is still sacrifice in heaven? Not that I do not respect your views, I was just raised with the idea that heaven reverts back to before the fall of man. No suffering of any kind. At least from this viewpoint some Christians share, a pain free existence has to have a dramatic effect on the types of love expressed. Especially the concept of sacrifice.

I believe that we can be redeemed from the Fall here on Earth - and that is what the Lord Jesus Christ offers all of us - a remission of sin here and now.

We can never return to the same condition that Adam and Eve enjoyed in the Garden - because we all now have Knowledge of Good and Evil - and with that Knowledge there is always the option of sin.

Therefore - we need to rely on the Lord Jesus Christ- have faith in who He is, what He has done and the promises that He has made - repent of our sins through conscious daily effort - and submit to His authority.

If we do these things humbly and with sincerity - with real intent - we can overcome the natural Man and become a saint through the Atoning Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We sacrifice our fallen nature - we sacrifice our sins - we sacrifice our preferences - to become as He would have us.

Sacrifice does not always mean that we need to suffer - it could only mean that we need to yield - to understand our reliance on the Lord - to accept the reality of our situation - to come to know who and what we are and who and what He is.

If we always did as we should - there would be no pain in the sacrifice that God would require of us - because all He wants us to sacrifice are those things that hurt us and would drag us down to Hell.

That process is painful in mortality - because of the burdens of the flesh which continually war against God and His Christ - but as we commit and yield more to Him - it becomes easier.

As long as we do our best and remain faithful - we can be inheritors of His promises - and there will be no more pain - because there will be no more sin - for we have exercised our free will to submit to Him and His ways - to always choose the Good over the Evil.

The pain-free existence you seek comes with us becoming new creatures in Him - sacrificing the old creatures we once were - and allowing ourselves to change into who we are meant to be.

 

[Robban]

I am curious about what you believe is/are ideal expressions of love. Also what do you think are not ideal expressions of love that others might disagree with you on?

Are there any influences regarding why you think the way you do? Have your ideals been different in the past, and if so.. why?

I do not think love ever asks, "What´s in it for me."

Maybe I should have said, "true love" because the word love is used in a way that it could mean anything.

Though most if not all at some time commit acts of love without even thinking about it.

Could well be the enemy of love is "self".

Yeah, I know, "Love others as you love yourself."



I see it as, if you do not like having your flaws made public, don´t do it to others.

Example,
when Noah lay drunk and naked (if taken lierally) Shem went in backwards and covered him over with a blanket,

and Japhet helped him, While Ham pointing a finger trumpeted it out.

 

[MehGuy]

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13

Admittedly, I can see how this can be expressed in actual love. I am just wary about dwelling on this particular aspect of love. This goes for any act of love done in a high suffering context.

There is a fine line though. For example some people blur the lines between liking to help those in poverty into romanticizing and glorifying those in poverty.

If the greatest examples of love involve suffering (in many cases extreme suffering), I hope we all agree that there should be psychological safe guards regarding these expressions.

 

[jacks]

Admittedly, I can see how this can be expressed in actual love. I am just wary about dwelling on this particular aspect of love. This goes for any act of love done in a high suffering context.

There is a fine line though. For example some people blur the lines between liking to help those in poverty into romanticizing and glorifying those in poverty.

If the greatest examples of love involve suffering (in many cases extreme suffering), I hope we all agree that there should be psychological safe guards regarding these expressions.

Yes, perhaps there should be a distinction between "ideal" and "extreme" expressions of love. Though often all expressions of love involve some level of sacrifice. In the sense that you put the others needs ahead of your own. Can we truly say we love someone, if we weren't willing to make some sacrifices for them? For instance seeing a baby nursing at its mothers breast, is a beautiful image of love, with little sacrifice being made. Though that same mother would probably sacrifice her life for the baby if circumstances demanded it. So yes, there are certainly different levels of how love is shown. But if love is shown through putting others needs ahead of ones own, then laying down ones life is the greatest expression of love.

 

[Sif]

I would have to go with the Stoics:

“Whoever then understands what is good, can also know how to love; but he who cannot distinguish good from bad, and things which are neither good nor bad from both, can he possess the power of loving? To love, then, is only in the power of the wise.” - Epictetus

"To love is to wish well for someone and seek their good." - Marcus Aurelius

Or the Daoists:

"Kindness in words creates confidence, kindness in thinking creates profoundness and kindness in giving creates love." - Lao Tzu (Laozi)

"Love the whole world as if it were yourself; then you will truly care for all things" - Lao Tzu (Laozi)

Or the Havamal:

“Be your friend’s
true friend.
Return gift for gift.
Repay laughter
with laughter again
but betrayal with treachery.”

 

[MehGuy]

Sacrifice does not always mean that we need to suffer - it could only mean that we need to yield - to understand our reliance on the Lord - to accept the reality of our situation - to come to know who and what we are and who and what He is.
If we always did as we should - there would be no pain in the sacrifice that God would require of us - because all He wants us to sacrifice are those things that hurt us and would drag us down to Hell.

That process is painful in mortality - because of the burdens of the flesh which continually war against God and His Christ - but as we commit and yield more to Him - it becomes easier.

As long as we do our best and remain faithful - we can be inheritors of His promises - and there will be no more pain - because there will be no more sin - for we have exercised our free will to submit to Him and His ways - to always choose the Good over the Evil.

The pain-free existence you seek comes with us becoming new creatures in Him - sacrificing the old creatures we once were - and allowing ourselves to change into who we are meant to be.

Sounds like the end goal is less about sacrificing and more about God eventually helping us reach a state of perfect submission. If eventually we enter a point where there is zero struggle, I do not see exactly what we are sacrificing.

 

[RileyG]

Will the capacity to love be somewhat diminished in heaven? I imagine in a place with no pain and sorrow, the sacrificial aspect of love will be irrelevant, or at least diminished?

No.

 

[RileyG]

I am curious about what you believe is/are ideal expressions of love. Also what do you think are not ideal expressions of love that others might disagree with you on?

Are there any influences regarding why you think the way you do? Have your ideals been different in the past, and if so.. why?

I'm a bit of a loner, and I only have contact with my immediate family, other than those whom I work with on a daily basis.

The best expression of love?

I honestly have no idea.

That's definitely a great question to ponder.

Someone who is more experienced in life than me, can answer better.

eh?

 

[MehGuy]

Yes, perhaps there should be a distinction between "ideal" and "extreme" expressions of love.

I definitely believe we should not be putting high context suffering on a pedestal. While it would be loving to lay down my life for another, I certainly would not want them to constantly contemplate my sacrifice after the fact. I would hope that they would be able to process my extreme act of love in its proper context. That eventually they should move on and focus on acts of love that are not traumatizing. Asking otherwise seems like abuse.

Though often all expressions of love involve some level of sacrifice. In the sense that you put the others needs ahead of your own. Can we truly say we love someone, if we weren't willing to make some sacrifices for them? For instance seeing a baby nursing at its mothers breast, is a beautiful image of love, with little sacrifice being made. Though that same mother would probably sacrifice her life for the baby if circumstances demanded it. So yes, there are certainly different levels of how love is shown. But if love is shown through putting others needs ahead of ones own, then laying down ones life is the greatest expression of love.

Yeah, sadly, love and suffering are very intertwined. What is the motivation to care for another without some context of suffering/potential suffering? Which is why the thought experiments of how love is expressed in a non-suffering environment such as heaven, or before the fall are interesting. I can see submission being an act of love (with God being a paternal figure), with submission crucially being able to be expressed in a non-suffering context. While I disagree with others about sacrifice being able to be expressed in a totally non-suffering context, I can see submission being possible.

I never really had a need for a father figure, nor a desire to submit... but it sounds like a psychologically healthier type of love to fixate on rather than love in extreme (even mild) suffering contexts.

 

[MehGuy]

I would have to go with the Stoics:

“Whoever then understands what is good, can also know how to love; but he who cannot distinguish good from bad, and things which are neither good nor bad from both, can he possess the power of loving? To love, then, is only in the power of the wise.” - Epictetus

I really like this quote. The quote fits in with an ideal of love I have been contemplating. An expression of love that is driven primarily from the intellectual mind. Instead of valuing the emotional intensity of caring for another, instead they forgo these (honestly often selfish motivations) emotions and instead use their energy to intellectual care for another, that whatever emotions they derive from the interaction is purposely kept low.

A psychologist named Paul Bloom coined a term called "rational compassion". A term I really like.

 

[Palmfever]

I am curious about what you believe is/are ideal expressions of love. Also what do you think are not ideal expressions of love that others might disagree with you on?

Are there any influences regarding why you think the way you do? Have your ideals been different in the past, and if so.. why?

Depends on your definition of love.
I believe love can be accompanied by several expressions which are not the core of what love is.
Taking a line from a Don Francisco song;
"Jesus didn't die for you because it was fun.
He hung there for love because it had to be done.
In spite of the anguish His Word was fullfilled,
Love is not a feeling, it's an act of your will."

In this foolish world where feelings are the primary focus, love is often misinterpreted as emotion. I believe while love can be accompanied by feelings of affection, it is doing the right thing in spite of how you feel.
It is sacrifice, patience, giving, honesty, compassion...
Love is many times putting your desires second. Lifting others up before yourself.

 

[Robban]

I am curious about what you believe is/are ideal expressions of love. Also what do you think are not ideal expressions of love that others might disagree with you on?

Are there any influences regarding why you think the way you do? Have your ideals been different in the past, and if so.. why?

Is it not so that all what we do requires a driving force, sometimes called motive.

If you pick up a stone and throw it, it will travel through the air as long as the force that threw it is driving it,

as soon as that force weakens the stone falls to the ground.

If this thing called love is real it will defy the laws of gravity and increase in force.


For what is faith if not the root, but the root must grow to become a treetrunk which is trust,

further more there must sprout branches to be able to bear fruit,

A faith that does not grow into trust will wither and die.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Sounds like the end goal is less about sacrificing and more about God eventually helping us reach a state of perfect submission. If eventually we enter a point where there is zero struggle, I do not see exactly what we are sacrificing.

You are sacrificing your preferences for His - your nature for His - your will for His.

That is perfection - realizing that we are in error and that He is the way and being as He would have us be.