The debasement of theology

[Teofrastus]

Do you have a definition of "transcendence" that you are using to say that Christianity favors transcendence and everyone else does not? If not, your claim seems rather ad hoc. For example, does transcendence = otherworldliness? On that basis perhaps folks like Elon Musk or Gnostics favor transcendence?

Christianity no longer favours transcendence, it seems. It is becoming more and more a worldly ideology, just like Islam. Jesus announced the Kingdom of God, which is "not of this world" (John 18:36) and "comes not with observation" (Luke 17:20-21). Despite all, it is here and all around us. So, it is an invisible Kingdom. It is often said that "Jesus brought the kingdom of God to earth". Sadly, it is interpreted as the Church and God's rule on earth, or in the worst case as "Christian society". This is not what Jesus meant. He pointed at the transcendent Kingdom, which had come closer to earth. Now it was within reach, and it still is. Jesus Christ is the ruler of this Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God is central to the message of Jesus. Both he and Paul say that it is a spiritual Kingdom. Thus, we cannot interpret it in worldly terms. Nevertheless, modern theologians and preachers insist that it is the community in Christ, or whatever, because they are so mundane and boring.

Once I awoke in the middle of the night by a voice calling my name twice. I wasn't startled at all, but remained wholly calm. Just then the moon came wandering out of the trees and shone right into my room. I was awakened so that I could revere the presence of the moon. It was a moon angel, possibly Ergediel, who awoke me. I saw a glimpse of the Kingdom of God, which is ever-present. Christianity has this side to it, which Jesus introduced, but which has been repressed as superstition. Augustine has an angelology; but this is not something that the modern rationalistic theologian cares about.

Transcendence can also be understood in the more abstract sense as the unknowability of the divine realm, as in apophatic theology. It is useful as a theological concept, but not very helpful in the life of ordinary people. It seems that we need both these concepts of transcendence, the "nearby" transcendence of Jesus and the "afar" transcendence of Pseudo-Dionysius.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Christianity no longer favours transcendence, it seems. It is becoming more and more a worldly ideology, just like Islam.

I think you are right. Do you think it is because of a personal inability to transcend the material world? Lack of ability to experience or imagine anything else? Or because such experiences are ineffable and do not lend themselves to rational discussion?

I have always appreciated apophatic spirituality. We have within ourselves a capacity for the transcendent. It remains a mystery to us even as it abides within us.

 

[Teofrastus]

I think you are right. Do you think it is because of a personal inability to transcend the material world? Lack of ability to experience or imagine anything else? Or because such experiences are ineffable and do not lend themselves to rational discussion?

I have always appreciated apophatic spirituality. We have within ourselves a capacity for the transcendent. It remains a mystery to us even as it abides within us.

I suppose it is due to centuries of cultural conditioning in which the question of the divine has been dislodged by so-called "scientific" interpretations of reality. Today, only the spatiotemporal has true existence, despite the fact that 'mind' isn't spatiotemporal. Nor are mathematical truths and the laws of nature spatiotemporal. A universe based on rational laws does not disprove God. On the contrary! The Church Fathers, among them Augustine and Aquinas, argued that science reinforces the Christian worldview based on a transcendent creator God. Augustine, in De Genesi ad litteram, rebukes those Christians who hold to silly beliefs and refuse to listen to science, thereby making a laughing stock out of Christianity. Today, young earth creationism is such a silly belief.

Many historians have pointed out that the "afar" transcendentalism of Christian theology is what paved the way for science. Thus, Christianity dug its own grave as it gave the upper hand to scientific reductionism and rationalism. Theology simply could not accommodate Jesus's message of the kingdom of God, and that's why immanentist theologians have today taken over the rudder.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I suppose it is due to centuries of cultural conditioning in which the question of the divine has been dislodged by so-called "scientific" interpretations of reality. Today, only the spatiotemporal has true existence, despite the fact that 'mind' isn't spatiotemporal. Nor are mathematical truths and the laws of nature spatiotemporal. A universe based on rational laws does not disprove God. On the contrary! The Church Fathers, among them Augustine and Aquinas, argued that science reinforces the Christian worldview based on a transcendent creator God. Augustine, in De Genesi ad litteram, rebukes those Christians who hold to silly beliefs and refuse to listen to science, thereby making a laughing stock out of Christianity. Today, young earth creationism is such a silly belief.

Many historians have pointed out that the "afar" transcendentalism of Christian theology is what paved the way for science. Thus, Christianity dug its own grave as it gave the upper hand to scientific reductionism and rationalism. Theology simply could not accommodate Jesus's message of the kingdom of God, and that's why immanentist theologians have today taken over the rudder.

I think that we do not carve out the time needed for silence and nature to nurture our capacity to experience the transcendent, We have been empowered and granted access as members of the Body of Christ but we most often do not exercise this gift.

 

[Teofrastus]

I think that we do not carve out the time needed for silence and nature to nurture our capacity to experience the transcendent, We have been empowered and granted access as members of the Body of Christ but we most often do not exercise this gift.

Indeed, but this is still in line with Christian apophatic mysticism. What I am after is the symbolic plenitude of the kingdom of God. It was suppressed because the Gnostics carried it too far. With the Reformation, the kingdom of God was decisively established in the material world, representing the true believers in Christ.

 

[Teofrastus]

The theologian Michael Welker (Creation and reality, 1999) observes that the major churches in Europe, and partly in North America as well, are currently experiencing the collapse of classical theism. Says Welker:

Many institutions and many people are experiencing a crisis of landslide proportions. Laments over this development mostly overlook the fact that almost all significant theologies of the twentieth century have actually worked toward this collapse. This has been a deliberate goal in the thought of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Jürgen Moltmann, in many theologies of liberation, and in almost all feminist theologies. At least initial steps in this direction have occurred in the work of Karl Barth, Wolfhart Pannenberg, Eberhard Jüngel, and David Tracy, in process theologies, and in other thinkers and developments. (Introd.)​

Clearly, the theologians work to undermine Christianity, because they can no longer support theism. It is true that the bible says that God is in heaven. But since heaven has been immanentized, there can no longer be a heavenly God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Smith can no longer believe in God as a self-subsistent being residing in an otherworldly realm.

Do Christian believe that? Do we believe that God lives inside a realm that contains him?

 

[Teofrastus]

Do Christian believe that? Do we believe that God lives inside a realm that contains him?

They ought to! From the Lord's prayer:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven...

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

They ought to! From the Lord's prayer:

Our Father in heaven

Do you interpret that phrase from the Lord's Prayer to mean that God is contained inside a place or state called heaven?

 

[Teofrastus]

Do you interpret that phrase from the Lord's Prayer to mean that God is contained inside a place or state called heaven?

Listen, this is neither science nor topological logic. It is called religion. God is the creator of heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1). The former world is atemporal, and therefore it is eternal. It is a suitable place for God to be, considering that He exists in eternity. The religious worldview is symbolical rather than metaphysical. Some call it naive. But they don't know the power of symbols. Symbols are used for things which we cannot understand in scientific or logical terms. Symbols point to the transcendental truth.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Listen, this is neither science nor topological logic. It is called religion. God is the creator of heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1). The former world is atemporal, and therefore it is eternal. It is a suitable place for God to be, considering that He exists in eternity. The religious worldview is symbolical rather than metaphysical. Some call it naive. But they don't know the power of symbols. Symbols are used for things which we cannot understand in scientific or logical terms. Symbols point to the transcendental truth.

Is this what you intended to say?

This isn't about science or topological logic; it's about religion. According to Genesis 1:1, God created heaven and earth. The former is atemporal and thus eternal, making it a fitting abode for God, who exists in eternity. Religion often adopts a symbolic rather than a metaphysical worldview. While some may deem it naive, they overlook the potency of symbols. Symbols represent concepts that elude scientific or logical comprehension, guiding us toward a transcendental truth.​

 

[Teofrastus]

Is this what you intended to say?

This isn't about science or topological logic; it's about religion. According to Genesis 1:1, God created heaven and earth. The former is atemporal and thus eternal, making it a fitting abode for God, who exists in eternity. Religion often adopts a symbolic rather than a metaphysical worldview. While some may deem it naive, they overlook the potency of symbols. Symbols represent concepts that elude scientific or logical comprehension, guiding us toward a transcendental truth.​

This is an effeminate translation of what I'm saying, yes.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is an effeminate translation of what I'm saying, yes.

Okay, it was done my Microsoft Copilot.

 

[Teofrastus]

Do you interpret that phrase from the Lord's Prayer to mean that God is contained inside a place or state called heaven?

We must, however, remember what is said in 1 Kings 8:27: “Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you.”

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

We must, however, remember what is said in 1 Kings 8:27: “Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you.”

Our Father who art in heaven

• As God is the common Father of all, we pray for all. Let none fear on account of their lowly station here, for all are comprised in the same heavenly nobility. ...
• By saying, "who art in heaven," he does not mean to insinuate that he is there only, but he wishes to withdraw the humble petitioner from earth, and fix his attention on heaven. (St. John Chrysostom, hom. xx.)
• Other prayers are not forbidden. Jesus Christ prayed in different words (John, chap. 8.), and the apostles; (Acts 1:24,) but this is an example of the simple style to be used in prayer, and is applicable to all occasions.

[from Fr Haydock's notes in the Douay Rheims Bible]

 

[The Liturgist]

Indeed, but this is still in line with Christian apophatic mysticism. What I am after is the symbolic plenitude of the kingdom of God. It was suppressed because the Gnostics carried it too far. With the Reformation, the kingdom of God was decisively established in the material world, representing the true believers in Christ.

We still use apophatic theology in the Orthodox church preferentially over cataphatic theology.

 

[Teofrastus]

Recent news from Sweden indicates that the Swedish Lutheran Church is revising its theology to include polyamorous relationships and permit polygamous marriages. This shift suggests a convergence with Islamic principles, blending Lutheranism with Islam. In my view, it is a result of modern theology's focus on bringing eschatological concepts into the present, aligning with the secularization trends in Islam. Both faiths appear to share a common vision, whether it is termed the caliphate or the earthly kingdom of God. The ongoing transformation of Lutheranism is perplexing. How could it go so wrong?

See also: Reformation turning secular: How Social democracy and a strong Lutheran state church made Sweden the most secular nation in the world | Clapham Institute

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Recent news from Sweden indicates that the Swedish Lutheran Church is revising its theology to include polyamorous relationships and permit polygamous marriages. This shift suggests a convergence with Islamic principles, blending Lutheranism with Islam. In my view, it is a result of modern theology's focus on bringing eschatological concepts into the present, aligning with the secularization trends in Islam. Both faiths appear to share a common vision, whether it is termed the caliphate or the earthly kingdom of God. The ongoing transformation of Lutheranism is perplexing. How could it go so wrong?

See also: Reformation turning secular: How Social democracy and a strong Lutheran state church made Sweden the most secular nation in the world | Clapham Institute

Not just the Lutheran Church: Anglicans, Methodist, Presbyterians, we have a newer congregation in my city that call them selves "traditional Anabaptists" and "Affirming" at the same time. They are more "woke" than our Liberal government. For me, it is hard, if not impossible to see "the Church catholic" of the Bible in any of these secular humanistic organizations that hide behind a religious "brand name".
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFRpc72RBnuRAuXVIXFwx.;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1729186236/RO=10/RU=http://anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Anchor_of_Hope_Anabaptist_Fellowship/RK=2/RS=RyH7va6XhNFQxZPd_xg7jA68yTE-

A little over a week ago, the Lutheran Church of Australia voted at their national convention to begin ordaining women. President Timothy Teuscher, National Bishop of Lutheran Church Canada was in attendance (very common for leaders of National Churches to attend such meetings of Church bodies that they are in fellowship with), He promptly announced the breaking of fellowship with them and promised that Lutheran Church Canada would continue to support the "Confessional Remnant" of the Australian Church. In effect, Lutheran Church Canada has excommunicated the LCA; or more correctly, the LCA has excluded itself by it's actions, from the long historic relationship with our Canadian Church.

Their are remnants that will remain.

https://www.facebook. com/100003296321999/videos/1071144957993066/?ref=embed_video&t=27

LCC and the LCMS have both declared fellowship with The Mission Diocese of Finland: News - Mission Diocese

In Sweden there is the Mission Diocese that is not part of the state Church but is in fellowship with the LCMS: Missionsprovinsen - Välkommen hem

Our Churches remain steadfast to our confessions along with many others throughout the world.

 

[BT3241]

You can see today Jesus is losing his divinity in the minds of people the theology taken as a whole will be very difficult for the modern world to accept.I see it all the time Jesus is just this nice guy who forgives sin his purpose and reason are gone.I believe this part but not that part people want to change to where they can accept it.But that's not how it works.Its bound to fall in error in this day outside the church.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not just the Lutheran Church: Anglicans, Methodist, Presbyterians, we have a newer congregation in my city that call them selves "traditional Anabaptists" and "Affirming" at the same time. They are more "woke" than our Liberal government. For me, it is hard, if not impossible to see "the Church catholic" of the Bible in any of these secular humanistic organizations that hide behind a religious "brand name".

What is coming out of Rome is an uncertain sound, with papal appointees being crazy woke. I'd have never have expected that. We have a Synod going on now that is a parody of the faith, but it, like the last ones, have real resistance even among Synod participants.

Their are remnants that will remain.

Our Churches remain steadfast to our confessions along with many others throughout the world.

I'm happy for that! I am with you.

There's this: THE PLOT TO QUEER EVANGELICAL CHURCHES | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

I think there must be a division of the same thing working to queer the Catholic Church too.