Kansas votes 62% to retain the right to access an abortion in its constitution.

[Desk trauma]

What? Are you backtracking on me now?

Nope.

 

[The Liturgist]

You are up way too late; rest and may God bless you with a peaceful night sleep.

Alas my friend I wasn’t able to sleep last night, as I am still recovering from a bad injury I received last month (but thanks to the grace of God, and my patron saints and my guardian angel, I did not break any bones - but that and a migraine left me with some discomfort, so your prayers are appreciated.

 

[Desk trauma]

Right and the whole point in handing the responsibility back to the states. But shame on Kansas for condoning murder

It was handed back to the legislators, why are people pretending that the ruling includes a prohibition on federal legislation?

 

[Belk]

Reason applies to abortion too at which pro-abortion supporters' reasoning goes haywire because abortion should be listed with those other "disgusting" crimes but for some reason, pro-abortion supporters' reasoning is extremely lacking. I wish you could really hear yourself and your truly flawed reasoning. Hopefully some day you will . We always need good people like you (truly concerned and wanting to do something about the wrongs in this world) to spread the truth about abortion.

You would need to actually convince me your view is correct. Admonitions and vague reasoning will not cut it. Being passionate about a subject is not a substitute for a well crafted argument. It tends to leave me with the impression you have nothing of substance to support your views.

 

[Belk]

It’s disgusting because it ends a life.

Should they elaborate more?

Yes! Disgusting is not an argument. Give me well reasoned critiques that support a conclusion.

 

[Belk]

Their only giving their pro life views.

Just because you disagree, doesn’t make it invalid.

No. They are giving me links without showing how that supports their claim. If they wish to change my mind they actually need to put in the work to show how their claims are correct and not hyperbole as I think them to be.

 

[The Liturgist]

But how did he get his response there for me to respond to? I thought he was the calm cool guy who does the DOS XX Beer commercials. What happened ?

Interestingly, that guy, in the original, classic commercials, was played by the very talented actor Jonathan Goldsmith, and was modeled on his deceased friend and sailing partner, the legendary Argentine-American actor Fernando Lamas (Argentina has produced a number of brilliant thespians, for example, the inimitable Ricardo Darin, who has starred in some of my favorite films, such as The Nine Queens, and The Secret In Their Eyes (the original, awesome Argentine version rather than the silly American copy of it, which doesn’t work, although it amused me they used Moorpark, which is actually an ordinary suburb, as the stand-in for the rural Argentine location at the climax of the original, for I have a relative who lives in the actual countryside near Moorpark, but by no means inside it).

 

[RileyG]

Yes! Disgusting is not an argument. Give me well reasoned critiques that support a conclusion.

This thread is over two years old, I will not comment further because I think it has already ran it’s course.

Take care

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes! Disgusting is not an argument. Give me well reasoned critiques that support a conclusion.

It seems a reasonable argument to me. Many things are unlawful because society regards them as morally repulsive, that is to say, disgusting. For example, disgust is all the argument I need to support restrictions on the sexual abuse of children, or on incest, or other forms of sexual deviancy.

Disgust is actually a human evolutionary response which forms in response to that which is dangerous or unhealthy, and therefore, when something disgusts us, there is often a good reason for it.

Unfortunately, society is malleable, and it is possible to distort social and moral values and appeal to the forbidden, so we ought to be apprehensive about that which disgusts people whose morality has been properly formed, through catechesis in the traditional values of the Christian religion, as expressed by traditional Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also to a large extent by certain related religions, such as Orthodox Judaism, Samaritanism and certain syncretic religions of the Middle East such as the Alevis of Turkey or the Yazidis of Iraq and Armenia, and indeed other religions from around the world, a great many of which prohibit abortion (even the ancient Roman religion prohibited abortion, for all its faults).

 

[DaisyDay]

But how did he get his response there for me to respond to? I thought he was the calm cool guy who does the DOS XX Beer commercials. What happened ?

@cow451, whom you quoted then shouted at, did NOT respond to you. Check the user names carefully. You can trace it back by clicking on the "cow451 says " + back arrow.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

It's amazing how selfish and weak people are in Kansas, in the Republican Party and in pretty much the whole USA when they can't stand for stopping the malicious murders of unborn children. We know the Democratic Party is very strong and evil for promoting these malicious murders of unborn children. Too bad there are very few strong warriors who will defend the unborn. We live in a very sick minded country. I can actually understand why some of the other countries in the world call us "The Great Satan".

You who are for killing the unborn in the womb will have your judgement day. Change your ways!

This is a pretty ridiculous statement to make. There are multitudes in my state (Kansas) who oppose abortion, rather vehemently. But the way elections and votes work is if you don't have more than the other side you lose. To just out and say "people in Kansas" are weak, is disappointing and not at all an accurate statement.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Thank you for your piety! May God grant you many years!

I see you are a Byzantine Catholic, by the way. I hope you might visit Traditional Theology for fellowship. Recently those of us in The Ancient Way forum were wondering if there were any Byzantine Catholics active on the site at the moment - we do have a lady in The Ancient Way who was Byzantine Catholic, but changed to an Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction.

I myself greatly love the Byzantine Catholic churches. I would be very interested to know which one you are a member of? A number of people use the term to refer to membership in the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, but there are many other sui juris Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholic Churches, such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the Russian Greek Catholics (who have a parish near where I live, one of the only Russian Greek Catholic parishes in the US), the Romanian Greek Catholics, the Hungarian Greek Catholics, the Melkite Catholics, and the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, who I find particularly interesting in that they exist in areas of Southern Italy which historically had ethnic Greeks who used the Byzantine Rite liturgy, and now, due to the influx of ethnic Albanians, celebrate the Byzantine Rite liturgy once more, but are very closely integrated with the neighboring Latin Rite parishes.

At any rate, God bless you, my brother, and thank you for your pious agitation for the right of all children to life!

I still consider myself Byzantine Catholic but I do not get to the Divine Liturgy as often as I would like. The closest Byzantine Catholic Church for us is only 40 minutes away. Unfortunately, with our hectic lifestyle, we go to the Roman Catholic Church about 5 minutes away. Once my wife retires from teaching, I hope that we will attend the Byzantine Catholic Church more often.

The Byzantine Catholic Church I attended when I was younger was originally called SS Peter and Paul Greek Catholic Church back in the 1960s and 1970s but in the 1980s, it was changed to SS Peter and Paul Byzantine Catholic Church. The members originated from around the Carpathian Mountains and were considered Carpatho-Rus. My mother kept jokingly saying we were the Byzantine Hillbillies. I'm not sure but I think we are referred to as Carpatho-Rusyn.

I love the way the Divine Liturgy is celebrated. All senses are fully awake and focused on Our Heavenly Father.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

This is a pretty ridiculous statement to make. There are multitudes in my state (Kansas) who oppose abortion, rather vehemently. But the way elections and votes work is if you don't have more than the other side you lose. To just out and say "people in Kansas" are weak, is disappointing and not at all an accurate statement.

Sorry. I should have expressed my point better. Our country just overcame the legacy of Roe vs Wade and now I'm seeing and hearing these state legislatures back pedal on it to make it harder to end abortion. I know that was the outcome of giving the states the power to decide but it's disheartening to hear what was supposedly a conservative state do such an overkill to stop the banning of abortions in the state.

I'd like to know also is why you are taking your objections out on my response. The people of Kansas must be changing to a more liberal view when it comes to abortion. I know you have many people there (as in pretty much every state of the nation) who vehemently oppose abortion but some kind of tide is turning in Kansas and not for the better. I don't know the politics of Kansas but as an outsider I can see somethings changing there if the state was considered a conservative state.

I would think you would want to take up your argument with your fellow Kansans and not your fellow pro-lifers.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

You would need to actually convince me your view is correct. Admonitions and vague reasoning will not cut it. Being passionate about a subject is not a substitute for a well crafted argument. It tends to leave me with the impression you have nothing of substance to support your views.

What is more convincing than a torn apart body of an unborn child? Do you need pictures? Would that convince you? I really don't know what else would convince a hardened heart like yours to see the truth about abortion.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

@cow451, whom you quoted then shouted at, did NOT respond to you. Check the user names carefully. You can trace it back by clicking on the "cow451 says " + back arrow.

Very Interesting .

 

[Desk trauma]

With how many states are voting on protecting abortion rights this election maybe the perfect record of failure at the ballot box for pro lifers will end. That or roes fall will continue to bite them.

 

[Belk]

It seems a reasonable argument to me. Many things are unlawful because society regards them as morally repulsive, that is to say, disgusting. For example, disgust is all the argument I need to support restrictions on the sexual abuse of children, or on incest, or other forms of sexual deviancy.

Disgust is actually a human evolutionary response which forms in response to that which is dangerous or unhealthy, and therefore, when something disgusts us, there is often a good reason for it.

Unfortunately, society is malleable, and it is possible to distort social and moral values and appeal to the forbidden, so we ought to be apprehensive about that which disgusts people whose morality has been properly formed, through catechesis in the traditional values of the Christian religion, as expressed by traditional Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also to a large extent by certain related religions, such as Orthodox Judaism, Samaritanism and certain syncretic religions of the Middle East such as the Alevis of Turkey or the Yazidis of Iraq and Armenia, and indeed other religions from around the world, a great many of which prohibit abortion (even the ancient Roman religion prohibited abortion, for all its faults).

Disgust should never be the basis for outlawing anything. It is a response based on social mores and is not an acceptable substitute for good reasoning. That is why we did away with laws against miscegenation even though many found it disgusting. The facts were that the social response was not based on any actual harm.

If, as you correctly point out, things like incest and child abuse are disgusting because of the harm they cause then that should be the reason for outlawing them. Not social conditioning. It is easy to show how these things cause negative outcomes inherent to the act and those negative outcomes are the reason we do not allow them. It used to be "disgusting" for aristocracy to marry someone from a different class but most of us would not find that a valid reason to outlaw such behavior today.

 

[Belk]

What is more convincing than a torn apart body of an unborn child? Do you need pictures? Would that convince you? I really don't know what else would convince a hardened heart like yours to see the truth about abortion.

Reasoning. That would be a well constructed argument based on facts that lead to a conclusion. Pictures are just an attempt to elicit a emotional response and not an argument.

 

[rjs330]

It was handed back to the legislators, why are people pretending that the ruling includes a prohibition on federal legislation?

I'm not sure anyone has made that claim. But any federal law whether it limits abortions allows for unlimited abortions would most likely end up at the supreme court again.

Right now it's at state levels, where it should remain. Each state can fight it out.

 

[rjs330]

You would need to actually convince me your view is correct. Admonitions and vague reasoning will not cut it. Being passionate about a subject is not a substitute for a well crafted argument. It tends to leave me with the impression you have nothing of substance to support your views.

I honestly think a we've had well crafted arguments. There are some topics where a well crafted argument won't satisfy anyone. Abortion is one of them. Now you may claim there hasn't been one that you have seen, but all that means is that you are so set on believing what you will, that there can't be an argument good enough to convince you.

I think that's fair to acknowledge. There isn't any argument that you could produce to convince me any of us pro-lifers that abortion is okay except to protect the life of the mother.

The difference is between both positions we are the most reasonable. We are willing to compromise. However it appears that most abortion supporters are not. Everytime I have offered to compromise for the things they are most concerned about as long as they agree to limit the other things, I fet a big fat no.

This also let's me know that there really isn't anything we can do to satisfy the abortion supporters no matter what we say.