• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Five Solas are in the Bible

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
38,369
22,057
30
Nebraska
✟880,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Can your deeds atone for your sins? No.

Faith alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 'It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”
We are saved solely by the work of Christ on our behalf. His death and His resurrection are the works that save us. We receive our Savior by faith John 1:12. Faith, not deeds
Acts 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved. Again, believe, no deeds.
Abraham believed and God counted to him as righteousness. Why? Because without faith, there is no pleasing God, Hebrews 11:16

The Bible clearly teaches that by faith is one justified. Romans 3:28 'For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.' This verse also serves as a useful, concise proof that our salvation is not, in any sense, dependent on good deeds, rituals, sacraments, or other behaviors.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

The thief on the cross believed in Jesus and was saved, He did not do any good deeds.
I never said deeds can atone for sins.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are saved by faith alone.

We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That's what St. Paul said.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,792
1,172
33
York
✟157,153.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are saved by faith alone.
I gave you plenty of verses which teach faith alone, and you still do not see.

Ok, what happened at the cross?
If you are truly a Christian, then you have been judged in Jesus. God cannot judge his people in any way because his people have already been judged in Jesus. When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath he drank it to the dregs. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and that means on the final day and every day until then. God is never judging you for your sin if you are in Christ. On the cross, Jesus atoned for your sin, He fully paid for your sin, He reconciled you to God, because sin separates us God. Therefore, salvation cannot be lost.

Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. What are you trying to add to that? What works? You think any of your works are good enough? Now you have to live in fear if you live a good enough live as a Christian for God to accept you. You don't live a life good enough, none of us do. God did not save us because how we live as a Christians, God saved us despite of that, because none of us are good enough.

But Christians are assured of their Salvation, because of the perfect work of Christ on the cross. 1 John 5:11-13 “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life

Jesus Himself assures those who believe in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29).
We are also sealed by the Holy Spirit, who is the ultimate assurance we have been judged in Christ and our sins are atoned.

We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That's what St. Paul said.
What does it mean to work for our salvation with fear and trembling?

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated "fear" in this context can equally mean "reverence" or "respect." Paul uses the same phrase in 2 Corinthians 7:15, where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,321
8,643
51
The Wild West
✟834,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
If you are truly a Christian, then you have been judged in Jesus. God cannot judge his people in any way because his people have already been judged in Jesus. When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath he drank it to the dregs. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and that means on the final day and every day until then. God is never judging you for your sin if you are in Christ. On the cross, Jesus atoned for your sin, He fully paid for your sin, He reconciled you to God, because sin separates us God. Therefore, salvation cannot be lost.

The primary problem with this is that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, and the way in which you express this argument, you make it sound like Jesus and God are entirely different, when in fact the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the three oceternal and coequal persons of the Holy and Undivided Trinity - the Father unoriginate, the only-begotten, uncreated Son and Word incarnate begotten of the Father before all ages, and the Holy Spirt, in eternal procession from the Father.

While penal substitutionary atonement is not incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity, as indeed the Calvinists are Trinitarian, it should be expressed in a manner that does not risk giving the impression that Jesus Christ is not Himself God the Son, but is rather only the Son and not God, and was purely a sinless sacrificial victim.

However it should be noted that the Patristic interpretation of the Gospels avoids either the satisfaction concept of Anselm of Canterbury or the penal substitution model we find in Calvin and later Protestants. Rather, the early Church Fathers understood Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross as the supreme victory of love over death.

Christ is risen from the grave, trampling down death by death!
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
11,975
11,361
USA
✟1,088,701.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Soli Deo Gloria is in the Bible, Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other. The reformers did not add anything.

I don't care what Luther and Calvin said, all I care about is what God said. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
There is no other way to God, thus Christ alone.
Because He alone redeems, He alone atones for sins, He alone died on the cross, He alone is the Mediator etc.

Amen And Amen!
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,321
8,643
51
The Wild West
✟834,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I don't care what Luther and Calvin said, all I care about is what God said

I would dispute that given you are trying to shoehorn Scripture into a particular dogmatic interpretation of the Five Solas, which are themselves a modern mnemonic for a set of beliefs which themselves originated relatively recently. You have no basis for complaining about the Roman Catholic Magisterium, since you have constructed your own magisterium.
 
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,792
1,172
33
York
✟157,153.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The primary problem with this is that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, and the way in which you express this argument, you make it sound like Jesus and God are entirely different, when in fact the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the three oceternal and coequal persons of the Holy and Undivided Trinity - the Father unoriginate, the only-begotten, uncreated Son and Word incarnate begotten of the Father before all ages, and the Holy Spirt, in eternal procession from the Father.
There is one God, but 3 persons, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
What did I say that isn't true?

Do we deserve God's wrath for our sins? Yes. The wrath of God is a divine response to human sin and disobedience. How many times in the Bible we read about God's wrath because of our sin? Joshua 7:1 'But the people of Israel broke faith in regard to the devoted things, for Achan the son of Carmi, son of Zabdi, son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of the devoted things. And the anger of the Lord burned against the people of Israel.' The Old Testament prophets often wrote of a day in the future, the "day of wrath", Zechariah for example wrote this, 'The great day of the Lord is near ,near and hastening fast; the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter; the mighty man cries aloud there. A day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness.' The New Testament also supports the concept of God as a God of wrath who judges sin. The story of the rich man and Lazarus speaks of the judgment of God and serious consequences for the unrepentant sinner (Luke 16:19–31). John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.

Is it also true that sin separates us from God? Yes. Isaiah 59:2 'But your iniquities have separated you from your God;' This is what God meant when He told Adam that he will surely die when he disobeys God. And so Adam died once he sins, because sins separates us from God.

We need someone to reconcile us to God, we need someone to fully atone for our sins, we need someone to suffer God's wrath that we deserve. All these things are in the Bible.

The one who believes in the Son will not suffer God’s wrath for his sin, because the Son took God’s wrath upon Himself when He died in our place on the cross. Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Do I need to say more? The Bible clearly states that Christ reconciles us to God. It also states that by Him we have been saved from the wrath of God. Why do you think Jesus said this '“Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”' The “cup” to which Jesus refers is the suffering He was about to endure. That's why we read in Isaiah 53:10 'it was the will of the Lord to crush him;'

If you are a born again Christian, then Jesus paid for and atoned for all of your sins. If there was only one sin He did not atone for, then the wrath of God is still on you. And there's nothing you can do even about one sin. So what are you trying to argue here?
 
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,792
1,172
33
York
✟157,153.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I would dispute that given you are trying to shoehorn Scripture into a particular dogmatic interpretation of the Five Solas, which are themselves a modern mnemonic for a set of beliefs which themselves originated relatively recently. You have no basis for complaining about the Roman Catholic Magisterium, since you have constructed your own magisterium.
The five Solas are in the Bible, and no one has invented them. I also do not add nor remove anything.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other = Glory to God alone

John 14: 6 ' Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me = Christ alone
John 17:1-2 “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him = Christ alone

Ephesians 2:8-9 'For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.' = By grace and faith alone. Not deeds. No one is ever saved by the deeds, if you try to add any deeds, then you reject God's grace, and you will be judged by your deeds and you are going to hell.

Scripture alone - while we do not find this term anywhere in the Bible, neither do we find the word 'trinity' there, that does not mean the trinity does not exist, because we can easily point to verses that describe the trinity. So it is with scripture alone. Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).
The Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

So yes, all 5 solas are absolutely Biblical.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,321
8,643
51
The Wild West
✟834,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
What did I say that isn't true?

The problem for me isn’t so much what you said, which is fairly standard western penal substitution soteriology, but rather, how you said it, which was in such a way that failed to make it clear, in your initial explanation, that Jesus Christ was God. I did not even know for sure whether or not you adhered to a belief in the Incarnation or the Trinity until you confirmed it just now, although I assumed you did.

The problem with this approach is that less well-versed Christian laity, including many youth, inadvertantly are led to believe that Jesus Christ is not God, but only the Son of God, and that he was made to suffer instead of us, in an act of what can seem like child abuse, when explained out of context.

If we make it clear that God died for us, in the person of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word and only-begotten son of God, of His own free will, and that it was not the Son being sacrificed to an all-powerful Father, we avoid this potential misunderstanding.

Ideally, and I think my beloved Lutheran friends such as @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian might agree with me on this, even while holding to traditional Western soteriological models like yours, a Trinitarian and Incarnational focus should be maintained in all discussions of Christ’s saving passion on the Cross. In other words, when we preach Christ crucified, we must stress at all times who Christ is: one of the Trinity, the incarnate Word and Son of God, who is Himself coequal and coeternal with the Father, and thus present the passion of our Lord with this in mind.

One of the things i regret the most about the United Methodist Church I attended in my childhood, not very long after the merger between the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Evangelical United Brethren, which given recent events (namely, the takeover of the UMC by radical left-wing elements in order to reverse the 2018 General Conference affirmation of the Scriptural truth that homosexuality is a grave sin that disqualifies one from the ministry and that homosexual marriage is impossible in a Christian denomination) I wish had never happened, is that even back then, before the liberal takeover had even begun to happen in most places, when the UMC was still fairly conservative, there was a remarkable lack of Trinitarian and Incarnational focus to the sermons. The result of this, combined with a decision by my parish to not recite the creed, made shortly before I was born, was that I grew up with a knowledge that the Holy Trinity was a thing, but no real understanding of what it meant in terms of salvation, the Christian life, the nature of the passion and resurrection of our Lord, and so on.
 
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,792
1,172
33
York
✟157,153.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The problem for me isn’t so much what you said, which is fairly standard western penal substitution soteriology, but rather, how you said it, which was in such a way that failed to make it clear, in your initial explanation, that Jesus Christ was God. I did not even know for sure whether or not you adhered to a belief in the Incarnation or the Trinity until you confirmed it just now, although I assumed you did
All the things that I have said, are in the Bible. Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Father and Son are equal, and yet the Son calls the Father His God, Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

There are other places He calls God His God. In John 20:17 and Revelation 3:2,12, Jesus calls God "My God." Why would God call Himself "My God"? It has to do with Christ’s relationship to His Father. Even though Christ is the eternal God Himself incarnate, He is still a different person from the Father. As a man and as man’s representative (Son of Man), Jesus’ person was dependent on the Father and, like us, looked to the Father for strength, guidance, wisdom, etc. Therefore, God the Father was the God of Jesus. The trinity is very mysterious for us humans.

Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. Jesus atoned for all my sins. Jesus paid for all my sins.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” 1 Peter 2:24. Here again we see that Christ took the sins we committed onto Himself to pay the price for us. ,“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit” 1 Peter 3:18. Not only do these verses teach us about the substitute that Christ was for us, but they also teach that He was the atonement, meaning He satisfied the payment due for the sinfulness of man

So no, this is not some western view, this is the Biblical truth.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
23,082
20,092
Flyoverland
✟1,402,107.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Some of the five solas are found in the Bible, while others are not. For instance, Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura are not explicitly stated in the Scriptures.
Well, Sola Fide IS explicitly mentioned in the Bible in the book of James. The only place where those two words are found together in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,725
2,544
Perth
✟213,844.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Well, Sola Fide IS explicitly mentioned in the Bible in the book of James. The only place where those two words are found together in the Bible.
Indeed, where it is written that one is NOT saved by faith alone.
 
Upvote 0