Washed and clothed in Christ: The beauty of the Sacrament of Holy Baptism

[LoveofTruth]

I understand your perspective, it's an interesting way to look at the texts. But as interesting as your perspective is, it is not what Christians believed in the first or second or third centuries or any century subsequent to the third century until some, yourself among them started to believe the way that you do. Christ promised to be with the church until then end of the ages, to keep the church free from the gates of hell, to teach the church, to guide the church from the beginning until he comes again, were I to accept what you're teaching then I'd need to abandon those promises that he made about his church and I do not want to abandon what Jesus promised to the church because when I abandon one of his promises how can I ever be sure any of his other promises is not also subject to change today or next week or in a decade?

Hello and God bless,

There has always been the church, even if the church in many parts had adopted error in some places, or if they were struggling with the law and various issues., the gates of hell still shall not prevail against the church in the global sense. Sone churches definitely go astray in various areas we read of Laodicea and others. But this does not mention how many are in that church, or that there will always be perfect understanding and doctrine in every church. Almost all the letters to the churches are corrective in nature.

. We see that in the past when it looked like almost all Gods people were in error 7000 has been reserved by God who did not bow their knee to evil.

We read things like this also about the times after the foundation of the church.

1 Timothy 4: 1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

Also we read of the events and doctrines in that time from what scripture records. It is safer to go by the scriptural text aand from men like Paul and John abd other writers than the ones beyond that whichever written. I also see that many so called “church fathers” had sone error that affected many . Jesus said call no man father for a reason.

We read clearly that the many Jewish believers were still struggling under the law and customs. This was many years after Christ death.

Here are just a few examples.

Acts 21: 18-29,-26. “ And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:..23. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24. Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purifcation, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.”

Acts 15: 5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.”

And the church will always prevail, but we still read verses like this

Luke 18: 8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

2 Thessalonians 2: 3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

And many of Gods people are in Babylon (confusion) and must come out.

Revelation 18: 4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

And we should chose to believe scripture over other me who go against it in any way who came after.

So to believe that the gates of hell shall not prevail against in the church is different from believing that many shall depart from the faith and others will be drawn away and false doctrine can come among them .

 

[LoveofTruth]

View attachment 350755
I developed this matrix a while back just to help me out. John's baptism at minimum lacks the Triune formula. In Acts 19 John's disciples never heard of the Holy Spirit....which they would have if the Triune formula were used. I think the event of Acts 19 clearly shows John's baptism is not Christian baptism due to having John's disciples under go Christian baptism per Paul's order. Acts 19 also deals with the question "What do we do with all of individuals baptized into John's baptism?"....they all had to undergo Christian baptism.

Certainly, no baptist will admit there are promises attached to baptism. They believe God does nothing in baptism and promises nothing in baptism.

@Xeno.of.athens​

One thing I forgot in the matrix is Jewish proselyte baptism. This would be the same as Jewish ceremonial washings. Also not included are the type/antitype baptism of I Peter 3 and I Corinthians 10.

It is the responsibility of those who might say that Matthew 28 is about water baptism and some formula to use. We never see this formula used in the scripture in water baptism.

Matthew 28: 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

I don’t see this section speaking about water baptism. The teaching immerses (baptised) them into the name (or character power attributes life etc)

We see a example of this here, after Peter was just teaching words then they were filled (baptized eith the Holy Ghost)

Acts 10: 44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”

Peter was still following Johns water baptism as her himself showed in chapter 11 when referring to this event.

Acts 11: 16. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

And about Matthew 28

To be immersed into a name is the issue here. Whatever we do as believers is to be done “in the name of Jesus Christ” .

Here are sone verses about being in the nane to consider. We see Jesus keeping them in the name of the Father and other interesting verses to consider: the proof is on any time show the word water here.

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

How did Jesus manifest the “name” of the Father?

John 17: 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

How did Jesus keep them in the “name”?

Proverbs 18: 10. The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.”

Song of Solomon 1: 3. Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.”

Deuteronomy 32: 3. Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.”

Joshua 9: 9. And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,”

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

It is the responsibility of those who might say that Matthew 28 is about water baptism and sone formula to use. We never see this formulae used in the scripture in water baptism.

Matthew 28: 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

I don’t see this section speaking about water baptism. The teaching immerses (baptised) them into the name (or character power attributes life etc)

We see a example of this here, after Peter was just teaching words then they were filled (baptized eith the Holy Ghost)

Acts 10: 44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”

Peter was still following Johns water baptism as her himself showed in chapter 11 when referring to this event.

Acts 11: 16. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

And about Matthew 28

To be immersed into a name is the issue here. Whatever we do as believers is to be done “in the name of Jesus Christ” .

Here are sone verses about being in the nane to consider. We see Jesus keeping them in the name of the Father and other interesting verses to consider: the proof is on any time show the word water here.

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

How did Jesus manifest the “name” of the Father?

John 17: 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

How did Jesus keep them in the “name”?

Proverbs 18: 10. The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.”

Song of Solomon 1: 3. Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.”

Deuteronomy 32: 3. Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.”

Joshua 9: 9. And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,”

Just plain gibberish.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Just plain gibberish.

No, it’s not

Show me the word “water” baptism there?

What saves men is belief in the righteousness of God which is shown in the gospel 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4

Notice that no water baptism or the Lord supper or circumcision or the Mosaic law are added to that gospel. To add to the gospel is to make another gospel and c to be in trouble (Galatians 1).

Also spiritual things are foolish to the natural man they cannot know the spiritual 1 Corinthians 2:11-16

 

[LoveofTruth]

Just plain gibberish.

What does Jesus mean here

ohn 17: 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

How did Jesus keep them in the “name”?

No gibberish at all . Just sone who don’t see these things.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There has always been the church, even if the church in many parts had adopted error in some places, or if they were struggling with the law and various issues., the gates of hell still shall not prevail against the church in the global sense.

You've presented a lengthy response, and for the sake of brevity, I will address only this particular statement as it encapsulates your entire argument.

You argue that Jesus has always been present with His church, despite historical instances of widespread apostasy. This viewpoint aligns with the beliefs of some Protestant reformers, founders of various restorationist denominations within Protestantism, and the founders of Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, among others who claim to restore or reform the church to its supposed original purity.

In essence, you believe that your faith embodies the reinstatement of truth and that those who dissent are, to varying degrees, apostate.

I understand this perspective; it is not uncommon. However, I do not subscribe to it for the following reason:

Matthew 28:18-20 recounts Jesus' assurance of His omnipotence and His command to teach all nations, baptizing them and instructing them to follow His teachings, with the promise of His perpetual presence until the end of time.

The Catholic Church has persisted throughout history, from the era preceding Saint Paul's epistle to the Romans to the present day. If your denomination did not exist during the times of Paul's writings, Jesus' resurrection, or the bestowal of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples in Jerusalem, then it cannot be the church to which Jesus pledged His presence.

Saint Peter established the church in Rome when he preached the gospel in Acts chapter two to the Romans who became believers at that moment.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul's letters and peters and Johns and others in scripture were meant to be read by believers all over as well and any believer or believers who gather can wait on the Lord and read scripture and God will use the Spirit and the scriptures and the various parts of that body to establish his church and to function as he intended. There is also enough or God's order and doctrine for us and all things that can furnish us in scripture through the Spirit. The anointing teaches us all things and we have no need that any man should teach us. But yes, God gives teachers who are in that anointing and we listen for the Lord who works in the body.

 

[Dan Perez]

It is the responsibility of those who might say that Matthew 28 is about water baptism and some formula to use. We never see this formula used in the scripture in water baptism.

Matthew 28: 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

I don’t see this section speaking about water baptism. The teaching immerses (baptised) them into the name (or character power attributes life etc)

We see a example of this here, after Peter was just teaching words then they were filled (baptized eith the Holy Ghost)

Acts 10: 44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”

Peter was still following Johns water baptism as her himself showed in chapter 11 when referring to this event.

Acts 11: 16. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

And about Matthew 28

To be immersed into a name is the issue here. Whatever we do as believers is to be done “in the name of Jesus Christ” .

Here are sone verses about being in the nane to consider. We see Jesus keeping them in the name of the Father and other interesting verses to consider: the proof is on any time show the word water here.

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

How did Jesus manifest the “name” of the Father?

John 17: 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

How did Jesus keep them in the “name”?

Proverbs 18: 10. The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.”

Song of Solomon 1: 3. Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.”

Deuteronomy 32: 3. Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.”

Joshua 9: 9. And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,”

And Acts 11:16 was first written in Acts 1:5 , BAPTIZED // BAPTISO with with Holy Spirit and the Greek text , does not have

the Greek word WATER // HUDOR .

And if anyone says it means WATER BAPTISM , how were they then baptized without WATER >

And here is just one MORE example in 1 Cor 10:2 And all were BAPTIZED // BAPTIZO unto to Moses in the CLOUD

and in the SEA ?

How were millions Jew WATER BAPTIZED unto Moses into the CLOUD in the SEA ??

dan p

 

[bbbbbbb]

And Acts 11:16 was first written in Acts 1:5 , BAPTIZED // BAPTISO with with Holy Spirit and the Greek text , does not have

the Greek word WATER // HUDOR .

And if anyone says it means WATER BAPTISM , how were they then baptized without WATER >

And here is just one MORE example in 1 Cor 10:2 And all were BAPTIZED // BAPTIZO unto to Moses in the CLOUD

and in the SEA ?

How were millions Jew WATER BAPTIZED unto Moses into the CLOUD in the SEA ??

dan p

That is a problem when scripture uses metaphor rather than explicit reality. We all agree that Jesus Christ is, metaphorically, a piece of wood construction with metal fittings (a door), a burning flame (the light), and a grapevine, but many are unable to understand that Jesus Christ is not a literal piece of bread or literal fermented grape juice.

 

[Dan Perez]

Just plain gibberish.

And Matt 28:19 says BAPTIZING ///\ BAPTIZO and the Greek WATER // HUDOR is not in the Greek text

and BAPTIZING // BAPTIZO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and just when did the 11 disciple , preach , baptism in the

name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the Holy Spirt .

And the Greek word for WATER // HODOR is not in the Greek text ??

And explain what NATIONS // ENTNOS mean ?? Check and check John 11:48 , 50 , 51 , 52 and verse 52 says to the children

scattered abroad ?? Who sre they ??

dan p

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

And Matt 28:19 says BAPTIZING ///\ BAPTIZO and the Greek WATER // HUDOR is not in the Greek text

and BAPTIZING // BAPTIZO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and just when did the 11 disciple , preach , baptism in the

name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the Holy Spirt .

And the Greek word for WATER // HODOR is not in the Greek text ??

And explain what NATIONS // ENTNOS mean ?? Check and check John 11:48 , 50 , 51 , 52 and verse 52 says to the children

scattered abroad ??

dan p

More gibberish.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Baptizer is God.

Do you think that the exercise of baptism, whatever the formula may be, forces God into the picture and He must act in some invisible way?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you think that the exercise of baptism, whatever the formula may be, forces God into the picture and He must act in some invisible way?

You have put your finger on the nasty theology of sacerdotalism. All one needs to do is have the proper religious cleric recite the magic incantation, perform a rote set of actions and, presto bingo, God bestows the required blessing.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You have put your finger on the nasty theology of sacerdotalism. All one needs to do is have the proper religious cleric recite the magic incantation, perform a rote set of actions and, presto bingo, God bestows the required blessing.

I'm sorry. Couldn't help it.

I have personally been baptised 3 times, just to be sure

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you think that the exercise of baptism, whatever the formula may be, forces God into the picture and He must act in some invisible way?

God can't be forced to do anything.

But God promises that when this happens, He's there, and He's present, and He's the One doing the work.

Jesus said "Where two or three are gathered in My name, I am in the midst of them." When we gather together we don't force Jesus to be there. Jesus is there because He said He would be, He promised He would be. He's not forced, He promises He's there--that's His will, word, and promise.

It is the will, word, and promise of God that in Baptism He is there, working, doing what He said He would do.

God is Faithful, He said He so.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God can't be forced to do anything.

But God promises that when this happens, He's there, and He's present, and He's the One doing the work.

But that's the same claim made by many including the name it and claim it crowd. It can be a slippery slope

Jesus said "Where two or three are gathered in My name, I am in the midst of them." When we gather together we don't force Jesus to be there. Jesus is there because He said He would be,

As if Jesus is not there any other time when there's not 2 or more? At some point in these things we should understand that reality shows us that a lot of people read a lot of things differently and derive sometimes dramatically different conclusions. And I was born and raised ALC just so you know. My great great grandfather built the first Norwegian Lutheran church in the U.S.

He promised He would be. He's not forced, He promises He's there--that's His will, word, and promise.

It is the will, word, and promise of God that in Baptism He is there, working, doing what He said He would do.

God is Faithful, He said He so.

IF a person is born again, then died, and didn't get some ritual correct, I doubt very much that they'll wind up in hell

A lot of these things are social constructs at this point. I won't call it dead ritual

Some, like myself, even go to extreme's to make sure we "have it right." But alas, reality has shown me that I'm often very wrong. That's kind of the whole reason to have and need a Savior, is it not?

 

[bbbbbbb]

God can't be forced to do anything.

But God promises that when this happens, He's there, and He's present, and He's the One doing the work.

Jesus said "Where two or three are gathered in My name, I am in the midst of them." When we gather together we don't force Jesus to be there. Jesus is there because He said He would be, He promised He would be. He's not forced, He promises He's there--that's His will, word, and promise.

It is the will, word, and promise of God that in Baptism He is there, working, doing what He said He would do.

God is Faithful, He said He so.

-CryptoLutheran

As I said, this is sacerdotalism - say and do the correct things and, presto bingo, God showers His blessings.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As I said, this is sacerdotalism - say and do the correct things and, presto bingo, God showers His blessings.

Well, for one, that isn't what sacerdotalism is. And for another, no one said "say and do the correct things and, presto bingo, God showers His blessings".

So, false on both accounts. And I fail to understand the motivation behind outright lying.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

But that's the same claim made by many including the name it and claim it crowd. It can be a slippery slope

You'll need to elaborate on this. Is the problem that God has made promises? How do you link God making a promise to "name it and claim it" nonsense?

As if Jesus is not there any other time when there's not 2 or more?

That's a straw man argument. Who said Jesus isn't there any other time? The Scriptures declare that Christ fills all things; and since Jesus as the Eternal Son of the Father is God, He is omnipresent.

At some point in these things we should understand that reality shows us that a lot of people read a lot of things differently and derive sometimes dramatically different conclusions. And I was born and raised ALC just so you know. My great great grandfather built the first Norwegian Lutheran church in the U.S.

IF a person is born again, then died, and didn't get some ritual correct, I doubt very much that they'll wind up in hell

I don't recall saying that people go to hell because they weren't baptized. This is the second straw man argument in this post.

A lot of these things are social constructs at this point. I won't call it dead ritual

Some, like myself, even go to extreme's to make sure we "have it right." But alas, reality has shown me that I'm often very wrong. That's kind of the whole reason to have and need a Savior, is it not?

Yeah. God is good and gracious. Unwilling that any should perish but that all come to eternal life.

But that doesn't change the fact that God works through His Means of Word and Sacrament to do what He promised. That's right there in Scripture.

Question: How are people born? They pass through the birth canal and exit the mother's body, right? But sometimes there are extenuating circumstances, and the doctor has to perform what's called a caesarean section, cutting the mother open to remove the child, then sew the mother back up.

Does the fact that there's an ordinary means by which a person is born negate the fact that people are born in extraordinary means?
Does the fact that people are born in an extraordinary means negate the ordinary means?

Is someone less born because they were born through the ordinary means, or less born because they were born because they were born through the extraordinary means?

The end result is the same, right?

The ordinary means, according to Scripture, by which a person receives new birth is the Sacrament of Holy Baptism (John 3:5, Ephesians 5:26, Titus 3:5). But to say that this is the only means by which a person receives new birth is, of course, false. As though God can't do what He wills according to His purpose. But that a person can be born again through some other means doesn't invalidate the clear word of Scripture.

A person that is saved without baptism doesn't mean that baptism doesn't save. No more than that a person being born through a c-section doesn't mean that people aren't born through the birth canal.

The problem I frequently encounter with anti-Sacramentalists is that there is very little concern about grace as grace. Instead salvation always has to be some kind of formula, or that things have to be X, Y, Z. That simply isn't the way the Bible talks about salvation. That simply isn't normative Christian teaching.

If God wants to save a person born in a Buddhist village that has never heard the name of Jesus, then God can and will do whatever He wants to do. But that doesn't change the fact that "There is no other name by which someone can be saved", as though Jesus were optional to salvation. Jesus Christ is still Lord and Savior, He is still the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and He alone is the way to the Father. That doesn't change. Just like it doesn't change the fact that people are saved in baptism, because that's what God promises to do. Save us.

God created fire to burn.
But Daniel's three companions were thrown into a fiery furnace and the fire didn't so much as singe a single hair on their heads.

The word of the Lord endures forever.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, for one, that isn't what sacerdotalism is. And for another, no one said "say and do the correct things and, presto bingo, God showers His blessings".

So, false on both accounts. And I fail to understand the motivation behind outright lying.

-CryptoLutheran

Can we agree on Merriam-Webster's definition of sacerdotalism?

religious belief emphasizing the powers of priests as essential mediators between God and humankind