SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

[rjs330]

Neither do you. Every case is different and every medication affects every person in a different way.

Yes I do. I know. You know how I know? Because I've done the research on the subject from top to bottom. By your thoughts lobotomies would have continued because no one except those performing them would have any say because no one but them knows what's best for the individual patient.

Do we live in another country or the United States? Also, people like you and I'm sure even more in Europe because of their high taxes don't want the government to have to pay for these treatments.

That's just baloney. We hear all rhe time how much the Europeans love their high taxes becauae of the benefits they receive. You are going to have to prove that they are doing it just to save money and it has nothing to do with anything else. And you can't.
Yes we live in the US and as long as the US is doing this to kids we are going to fight against it and ask our legislators to put a stop to it. Because it's abhorrent and unconscionable to permanently damage kids who are struggling with mental health issues like this.

That is why it's done one one with between the patient and doctor. Every case is individual and has an individual treatment.

I repeat the French Academy of Medicine notes, there is no "test" to determine who will experience which. So whether it is individual or in a group there is no test to determine who will experience which.

I don't think there is a reliable way to predict anything a teenager might change their mind about but if we deny them the treatment they request it opens up a whole other list of legal consequences. So while it's legal and that is the medical model, doctors aren't going to refuse treatment and risk a civil rights lawsuit. People love suing doctors.

So your argument is we don't want people suing doctors because they won't give you what you want? So now you agree that Affirmative Care is all about giving the person what they want. No real diagnosis is done because if the doctor doesn't diagnose what the patient wants there could be a lawsuit. You think that's the right way to run medicine? You know that's how we ended up with the opioid crisis. It's also why they seriously tightened up on prescription medicines.

You need to work harder at banning these treatments because it's going to continue until laws are changed.

We are. As OP says. More states are joining all the time.

 

[BCP1928]

I would agree. But a man thinks they are a woman despite the fact they don't have a female biology. At least you have to have faith he thinks he is a woman. You don't know if he really does or doesn't. Just becauae he says he is a woman doesn't mean he actually does think that. He could be lying.

Could be, but I don't know why. It's a lot of trouble being trans. But in the workplace or lightweight social occasions that we are considering I don't think it would make much difference. I mean, in such a situation you could be lying about being a Christian and I would never know, but I wouldn't care much if I did know.

But let's say that he does think he's a woman. He has to have faith that he is a woman, because all evidence is contrary to that. I feel like I woman is nothing more that a belief system. A faith system that is based on things that are unseen and untestable. In fact it's in belief to all evidence to the contrary.

Aren't your thoughts and feelings real to you? I assume that trans people's feelings are real to them, too, whatever they are. If a man says he feels like a woman, I believe he thinks he feels like a woman. Whether he actually feels like a woman, no one can know. He certainly feels something.

And yet they often undergo body transforming drug therapy and surgerie in order to be as close to things that they aren't. They also work to get into women's spaces and be called women's pronouns that have always been reserved to biological women. None of the surgeries or drugs make them something they aren't. So what exactly are they trying to become?

I don't know, and maybe they don't either. I have a hunch they just want to function in society as who they think they are.

Yet society is being altered with or without your personal involvement. And if you do involve yourself you absolutely are altering society. Because society is never altered without the permission and support of those within it. And in your case you are getting involved and are aiding the alteration.

Given all things going wrong in society today that need altering, altering Society a little bit to accommodate trans people is just a bump in the road.

 

[rturner76]

By your thoughts lobotomies would have continued because no one except those performing them would have any say because no one but them knows what's best for the individual patient.

That's why there is oversight by the AMA and the APA which is made up of doctors who study outcomes. Neither association has agreed that it is prudent to disregard the symptoms that people with gender dysphoria report.

That's just baloney. We hear all rhe time how much the Europeans love their high taxes becauae of the benefits they receive. You are going to have to prove that they are doing it just to save money and it has nothing to do with anything else. And you can't.

Actually, if you speak to a European conservative they will tell you the opposite. People not only want to ban it for fiscal reasons but their personal morality like you.

I repeat the French Academy of Medicine notes, there is no "test" to determine who will experience which. So whether it is individual or in a group there is no test to determine who will experience which.

No standardized test. Because like I said every case is different and requires treatment individual to that patient. I know it's convenient to treat all people the exact same way but that doesn't work in medicine or psychological medicine.

So your argument is we don't want people suing doctors because they won't give you what you want?

I don't care who sues who if there is negligence. Not considering a patient's complaints can be considered negligence.

So now you agree that Affirmative Care is all about giving the person what they want

I agree that Affirmative Action treats people for the symptoms they report.

No real diagnosis is done because if the doctor doesn't diagnose what the patient wants there could be a lawsuit. You think that's the right way to run medicine? You know that's how we ended up with the opioid crisis. It's also why they seriously tightened up on prescription medicines.

Not so much what the patient wants but what the patient reports. With all physiological diagnoses, there is a spectrum. Not all people report the exact same symptoms nor are patients all treated the exact same way.

We are. As OP says. More states are joining all the time.

That's also South Carolina.....Nuff said.

 

[rjs330]

Could be, but I don't know why. It's a lot of trouble being trans.

We know why. We've seen why. They could just be a pervert. Or maybe has autogynaphelia.

Aren't your thoughts and feelings real to you? I assume that trans people's feelings are real to them, too, whatever they are. If a man says he feels like a woman, I believe he thinks he feels like a woman. Whether he actually feels like a woman, no one can know. He certainly feels something.

If he is honestly trans I think that's true. But he still has to accept it on faith because he doesn't know what it feels like to be an actual woman. And all evidence to the contrary rhat he's not a woman. It's a faith based thing.

I don't know, and maybe they don't either. I have a hunch they just want to function in society as who they think they are.

Well if they don't know what they are trying to become then neither you nor I do either. So once a fain it's faith based on you think they actually feel like a woman even though no one really knows what woman feels like. And they are taking it on faith that they feel like a biological woman even though they have no idea what a biological woman feels like. If they want to function as a transwoman, whatever that is, that's just fine. But they aren't a real woman and so can't lay claim to real woman spaces and real women pronouns. There is real biological women who are we can prove are and transwomen aren't it. So, if they want to function as a man who dresses like a woman or acts like a woman, whatever that is, be my guest. If they want to have their own spaces or sports then that's fine too. Gee I'd even support them using their own pronouns like zi, zer or gy, ger or whatever. Cause then they aren't coopting women's pronouns. We would all know and accept they are transwomen, with transwomen spaces, sports and transwomen pronouns.

Given all things going wrong in society today that need altering, altering Society a little bit to accommodate trans people is just a bump in the road.

It's a LOT not just a little.

 

[rjs330]

That's why there is oversight by the AMA and the APA which is made up of doctors who study outcomes. Neither association has agreed that it is prudent to disregard the symptoms that people with gender dysphoria report.

No it's made up of doctors who depended on the so called experts of WPATH who have now been found to be activists and used garbage research to support their activism. We are discovering more about that too.

Actually, if you speak to a European conservative they will tell you the opposite. People not only want to ban it for fiscal reasons but their personal morality like you.

You think 100% of Europeans all think the same? You haven't proven at all that these countries have suddenly gone conservative and are cutting back on Affirmative Care for kids just to save a buck. You're acting desperate here, reaching. Prove your theory that they are doing this for money and not because they've discovered that Affirmative Care isn't the right thing to do to kids.

No standardized test. Because like I said every case is different and requires treatment individual to that patient. I know it's convenient to treat all people the exact same way but that doesn't work in medicine or psychological medicine.

I repeat there is NO test standardized or not that can tell you which child will stay on the trabs course and which ones won't. That's why none of them should be transitioned. It should be considered malpractice to subject a child to permanent damaging drugs and surgeries when you can't guarantee they need them.

don't care who sues who if there is negligence. Not considering a patient's complaints can be considered negligence.

There can be no negligence if the doctor cannot provide a test that shows the kid is actually trans. We don't give anti bionics unless we can show the child needs them because a test has shown it.

agree that Affirmative Action treats people for the symptoms they report.

Your back tracking now. You said,

"If we deny them the treatment they request"

Not so much what the patient wants but what the patient reports. With all physiological diagnoses, there is a spectrum. Not all people report the exact same symptoms nor are patients all treated the exact same way.

Need I repeat that there isn't any test to determine if a child is actually trans?

That's also South Carolina.....Nuff said.

No that's not "nuff" said. That's just one of the latest ones. More will be coming. Especially as more and more comes about the discoveries in Europe. Maybe you should push for opening up research facilities for this like Europe. Where kids can sign up to be experimented on in a research setting.

 

[rturner76]

No it's made up of doctors who depended on the so called experts of WPATH who have now been found to be activists and used garbage research to support their activism. We are discovering more about that too.

Garbage research? Is all research that doesn't prove your personal opinion garbage?

You think 100% of Europeans all think the same?

I never said 100% of anyone said anything. What I said was Europe is getting more and more conservative. I don't believe that any people are 100% one thing anywhere.

I repeat there is NO test standardized or not that can tell you which child will stay on the trabs course and which ones won't.

Did I say there was or did I specifically say there isn't? I reiterated that is the reason why doctors and psychiatrists look at each case on an individual basis. Not only to diagnose gender dysphoria but how far it has progressed.

There can be no negligence if the doctor cannot provide a test that shows the kid is actually trans.

There can be negligence if a doctor fails to evaluate based on the symptoms presented. Denying treatment based on a personal and not a medical opinion is where things go wrong. I'm sure you would feel more comfortable if doctors treated their patients based on conservative political opinions but that's just not how it works.

Your back tracking now. You said,

"If we deny them the treatment they request"

It would have been more clear had I said if we deny the symptoms that they are seeking treatment for. I thought you could make the connection.

Need I repeat that there isn't any test to determine if a child is actually trans?

Not to me, I've already agreed that there is no standard test but there is a list of symptoms that indicate if someone possibly has gender dysphoria. You can see the criteria in the DSM-5.

Maybe you should push for opening up research facilities for this like Europe.

I wouldn't doubt that we also have research being done in the United States. Medical organizations tend to do research on anything treatable. I think you would like the government to dictate who gets treated but in our country, it is the doctors that organize treatment plans. Then it is up to the patient and the parents in the case of a minor to follow that treatment plan or seek a second opinion. The US medical system leans toward doctors and patients agreeing on a treatment plan and they don't so much rely on conservative politicians to dictate the treatment of their patients.

 

[rjs330]

Garbage research? Is all research that doesn't prove your personal opinion garbage?

At this point it appears so. That's been the discovery by the systematic reviews of the research that was used by WPATH to justify their activist guidelines.

I never said 100% of anyone said anything. What I said was Europe is getting more and more conservative.

Is it? Well that sounds like a step in the right direction then. But you still haven't proven your assertions

I reiterated that is the reason why doctors and psychiatrists look at each case on an individual basis.

They can look all they want but they still won't know. Out of ten individual cases at least 8 of them will desist of left alone or simply receive psychological therapy through their teens. But since Affirmative Therapy medicalizes kids without the long term therapy, because remember it's not required those 8 kids will be transitioned and those doctors would be wrong.

There can be negligence if a doctor fails to evaluate based on the symptoms presented. Denying treatment based on a personal and not a medical opinion is where things go wrong. I'm sure you would feel more comfortable if doctors treated their patients based on conservative political opinions but that's just not how it works.

I would be more comfortable if doctors followed the current scientific and medical findings instead of the transactivist community. It appears your political leanings are paramount in forming your opinions rather than the science.

There can be negligence if a doctor fails to evaluate based on the symptoms presented. Denying treatment based on a personal and not a medical opinion is where things go wrong.

Yes if there is actually a test that can determine if a kid will stay in that state. But there isn't one. And the issues are once again the symptoms are not actually based upon any science or scientific discoveries. They are based upon transactivists.

Not to me, I've already agreed that there is no standard test but there is a list of symptoms that indicate if someone possibly has gender dysphoria. You can see the criteria in the DSM-5.

And what exactly are the symptoms based upon? What science and scientific discoveries are there to justify the validity of the symptoms? And what science and scientific discoveries are there that verify that the Affirmative Care treatments for children are valid?
I'll tell you how many. None. And since kids will most likely not transition if just given psychotherapy through their teens years then that should be enough to say no medicalizatiin of teens is necessary. Since they may have a symptom both those symptoms will.go away in time.

The US medical system leans toward doctors and patients agreeing on a treatment plan and they don't so much rely on conservative politicians to dictate the treatment of their patients.

Except in this case. What the patient wants is the driving force behind Affirmative Care for minors. The minor gets medicalized if thats want they want whether the doctors have any idea or not if the kid would remain with those symptoms.

I wouldn't doubt that we also have research being done in the United States. Medical organizations tend to do research on anything treatable.

I don't think they are. I don't think k anyone is doing experimental trials on Kids. The whole thing is experimental. But no real studies are being done in controlled environments like Europe is doing.

 

[Pommer]

So we are returning back to faith then. That faith is required in order to accept that someone is trans. So it's a religious thing. No objective reality behind either then.

Money isn’t “real”, yet we go about as if it is real.

 

[rturner76]

those 8 kids will be transitioned and those doctors would be wrong

Source? It it a legitimate source you are getting this information from or are you just guessing?

I would be more comfortable if doctors followed the current scientific and medical findings instead of the transactivist community. It appears your political leanings are paramount in forming your opinions rather than the science.

THat's exactly what they are doing. The current findings in the medical community says to treat people for the symptoms they present. I doubt that will change.

Yes if there is actually a test that can determine if a kid will stay in that state.

Can one determine if anyone will remain in ant state. They treat the symptoms presented, not the symptoms that they think someone might have in ten years.

And what exactly are the symptoms based upon?

The DSM-5 criteria which is accepted by the entire medical community and medical insurance companies.

Except in this case. What the patient wants is the driving force behind Affirmative Care for minors. The minor gets medicalized if thats want they want whether the doctors have any idea or not if the kid would remain with those symptoms.

A patient wants treatment for what they have and the medical community does that. Until the criteria changesthis will remain so.

I don't think they are.

You don't think means you don't know. Find out and post the link to a legitimate source. Try to stay away from right-wing or evangelical propaganda sites. Try something like a neutral government source or a few university studies that have been accepted by peer review.

 

[rjs330]

Source? It it a legitimate source you are getting this information from or are you just guessing?

You know this is just more evidence that you don't know what you are talking about. You are arguing from a position of unreserved emotional arguments based upon only personal opinions. Everytime you've asked for evidence I've provided it. I'm tired of doing it over and over again for you. I've told you to do more research on this, but you've refused. That's on you. The statistics range from 65-80% depending on the study.

THat's exactly what they are doing. The current findings in the medical community says to treat people for the symptoms they present. I doubt that will change.

No they aren't. They are following the guidelines set forth by transactivist organizations.

Can one determine if anyone will remain in ant state. They treat the symptoms presented, not the symptoms that they think someone might have in ten years.

With the knowledge that the majority won't remain in that state and the knowledge they can't tell who will or won't, then it's pretty much malpractice to give kids damaging drugs and treatments like that. You are sentencing kids to lifelong issues and you have no idea if they are going to remain trans thinking.

The DSM-5 criteria which is accepted by the entire medical community and medical insurance companies.

Where did that come from? You know it was a political decision. No? Then you need to do more research.

A patient wants treatment for what they have and the medical community does that. Until the criteria changesthis will remain so.

That's incorrect. You treat people for what they need and not what they want. That's why antibiotics and opioids aren't handed out like candy anymore.
We don't really know if a kid is trans or will remain trans. Odds are they won't. So it's malpractice to make something permanent fir a temporary problem.

You don't think means you don't know. Find out and post the link to a legitimate source. Try to stay away from right-wing or evangelical propaganda sites. Try something like a neutral government source or a few university studies that have been accepted by peer review.

You're the one who claimed they were. So you prove your claim. I just told you I didn't thinknm they were. You prove me wrong. You made the claim.

 

[BCP1928]

So we are returning back to faith then. That faith is required in order to accept that someone is trans. So it's a religious thing. No objective reality behind either then.

The faith required in order to accept that someone thinks they're trans. You don't have to accept that they are trans, only that they think they are.

 

[Pommer]

The faith required in order to accept that someone thinks they're trans. You don't have to accept that they are trans, only that they think they are.

I do not understand how “taking people at their word” is “wrong”.

 

[rjs330]

The faith required in order to accept that someone thinks they're trans. You don't have to accept that they are trans, only that they think they are.

It's based on faith that they think that. Just like it's based on faith that people believe anything that is unprovable. Even doctors take it on faith.

The reason for this is that there IS ABSOLUTE INCONTROVERTABLE EVIDENCE, that they are the sex they were born as.

That being said we can absolutely accept that they believe it. It's our choice. Just like you accept that Christians believe in sin.

The difference is you are not willing to change the way society operates in order to accommodate thier beliefs. But you are willing to.change society in order to accommodate transgenderism beliefs.

Christians believe that practicing homosexuality is sin. But since you don't believe that it is and there is no evidence that it is, you aren't willing to change society for that. In fact you absolutely want laws and policies preventing any societal determination that it is.

You however, will have faith that the transperson believes they are the opposite sex in their mind/soul. You have no evidence they are, but you believe they do. So you are perfectly willing to alter society and have laws and policies to force people to say the person IS the opposite sex and allow them to participate in all the opposite sexes things despite rhe evidence to the contrary. That sounds an aweful lot like you actually have bought into the faith.

 

[rjs330]

I do not understand how “taking people at their word” is “wrong”.

It's not. No one has ever claimed it is. People are entitled to believe whatever they want.

Kids however are a different matter, becauae they are notorious for changing thier minds. They are VERY sure about something one day and then very sure about something else the next. They are the epitome of trying to find oneself. Working to fit in while at the same time trying to be their own person. They are easily influenced by many things. If they weren't the education system wouldn't be working so hard to influence them.

Once you are an adult, you still are relying to figure out who you are often enough. Probably until you are about 25. But you are legally an adult and may do as you please including going into the military. So, since that is the legal age, do as you wish.

And since we know that kids if left alone will stop being trans by that age, there is no reason whatsoever not to wait. Give them psychological therapy if need be. That's probably really good. It gives them time to figure it out and a lot more ways to cope with the comorbitities they have.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Thank goodness. Hormones and surgeries for a mental illness. Unthinkable even ten years ago.

 

[BCP1928]

It's based on faith that they think that. Just like it's based on faith that people believe anything that is unprovable. Even doctors take it on faith.

The reason for this is that there IS ABSOLUTE INCONTROVERTABLE EVIDENCE, that they are the sex they were born as.

That being said we can absolutely accept that they believe it. It's our choice. Just like you accept that Christians believe in sin.

The difference is you are not willing to change the way society operates in order to accommodate thier beliefs. But you are willing to.change society in order to accommodate transgenderism beliefs.

Christians believe that practicing homosexuality is sin. But since you don't believe that it is and there is no evidence that it is, you aren't willing to change society for that. In fact you absolutely want laws and policies preventing any societal determination that it is.

That is because a secular state cannot make a pronouncement about what acts are sinful.

You however, will have faith that the transperson believes they are the opposite sex in their mind/soul. You have no evidence they are, but you believe they do. So you are perfectly willing to alter society and have laws and policies to force people to say the person IS the opposite sex and allow them to participate in all the opposite sexes things despite rhe evidence to the contrary. That sounds an aweful lot like you actually have bought into the faith.

Not quite there yet, I see The object is to treat trans people as if they were the opposite sex. No ontological commitment is required. Is allowing them "to participate in all the opposite sexes things" a sin?

 

[rjs330]

Thank goodness. Hormones and surgeries for a mental illness. Unthinkable even ten years ago.

This has been going on for a long time. It used to be called transsexualism. Then it became Gender identity Disorder. And for political reasons it was altered to Gender Dysphoria. There is a movement to remove it from DSM completely and just make it a varient.

 

[Always in His Presence]

This has been going on for a long time. It used to be called transsexualism. Then it became Gender identity Disorder. And for political reasons it was altered to Gender Dysphoria. There is a movement to remove it from DSM completely and just make it a varient.

I think it is sad instead of getting these individuals the psychological help they desperately need we turn their illness into cause celeb.

 

[rjs330]

That is because a secular state cannot make a pronouncement about what acts are sinful.

Right because it's a matter of faith. Just like Transgenderism.

Not quite there yet, I see The object is to treat trans people as if they were the opposite sex. No ontological commitment is required. Is allowing them "to participate in all the opposite sexes things" a sin?

It appears you are there. Treating them as if they are something they can never be. Is buying into the faith. The commitment comes with supporting laws and policies that allow them to enter women's spaces as if they were a woman, not matter what. As long as they CLAIM to believe. That's all it takes. It's takes nothing more than for a person to say, "I am trans".

I believe it's a violation of women, and women's rights. I believe it is a violation of individual rights to force people to use certain language.

If a person is honestly transgender and not using it as an excuse to fulfill sexual fantasies or to prey on women, then it's a mental health disorder. And I believe illnesses are not sinful.

 

[rturner76]

You know this is just more evidence that you don't know what you are talking about. You are arguing from a position of unreserved emotional arguments based upon only personal opinions. Everytime you've asked for evidence I've provided it. I'm tired of doing it over and over again for you. I've told you to do more research on this, but you've refused. That's on you. The statistics range from 65-80% depending on the study.

Actually it's based on national medical standards of treatment. You are actually the one basing their facts on personal opinion.

With the knowledge that the majority won't remain in that state and the knowledge they can't tell who will or won't, then it's pretty much malpractice to give kids damaging drugs and treatments like that. You are sentencing kids to lifelong issues and you have no idea if they are going to remain trans thinking.

Source? I've asked for the proof that the majority will change their mind and you have yet to provide it. It's again a personal conjecture.

Where did that come from? You know it was a political decision. No? Then you need to do more research.

IPoliticians may influence medical policy but it is actually the medical community that sets the standards for medical treatment. Another miss.

We don't really know if a kid is trans or will remain trans. Odds are they won't.

Source?

You're the one who claimed they were. So you prove your claim. I just told you I didn't thinknm they were. You prove me wrong. You made the claim

Instead of me providing all of the factual information, how about you prove yourself right?