Israel-Hamas Thread II

[o_mlly]

And easy questions to be answered. Yes and no. But all completely irrelevant to my question which still hasn't changed. How many innocent deaths will there be before reasonable people say 'enough'.

The post is quite relevant to your question. "Enough" is determined by the unjust aggressor. All killing stops when the unjust aggressor ceases to wage war. Why do they not stop -- are they not reasonable people? Apparently so.

For the soldiers waging a just war, acts of force are moral if the good effect i.e., lives saved, is equal or greater than the evil effect, i.e., lives of innocent people lost. For the soldiers waging an unjust war, arguably every act of violence is unjust.

 

[o_mlly]

How did you manage to skip over the first sentence? How did we kill 22 ISIS members if there is no ISIS?

Central Command is committed to defeating ISIS, not putting its feet up cracking open a cold one after having defeated them.

? I didn't ask if all ISIS jihadists have been killed. Was not the ISIS political movement in Iraq and Syria defeated?

 

[Valletta]

Abject nonsense. You need a bucketful of flying hours on smaller commercial jets before you're even allowed to touch the controls of large 4 engined jets. Nobody starts learning to fly a 747 except commercial pilots.

That's an interesting perspective. To let you know, here in the United States it is well accepted that indeed Moussaoui enrolled in flight training lessons at a school in Minneapolis, that he paid cash, and that he had no background in aviation. You may be correct for the normal situation, perhaps the fact that he paid cash made the difference. I never thought about it. The flight school reported the facts to the FBI on August 15, 2001. The whistleblower, FBI agent Mrs. Rowley, testified before Congress as to the facts.

 

[Bradskii]

The post is quite relevant to your question. "Enough" is determined by the unjust aggressor. All killing stops when the unjust aggressor ceases to wage war. Why do they not stop -- are they not reasonable people? Apparently so.

There is one side bombing Gaza as you read this. Innocent people are being killed as you read this. Terrorists, almost by definition, don't concede. Do you think someone from Hamas is going to politely sit with someone from Israel and sign some terms of surrender? You either try to kill them all, or you find another solution. The world is calling out for some variant of option 2. Israel seems intent on option 1. In which case expect very many more deaths.

Apart from the truly horrendous death toll they are losing long time friends. They are losing support. Was this the ugly aim of Hamas in the first instance? I think there's a distinct possibility. Either way, reasonable people are calling for a stop to this carnage. Except some on this forum want the carnage to continue. The price hasn't been paid yet. But don't bother asking what number of dead is sufficient.

You won't get an answer. Because what sort of person would agree to 4,000 dead children as being a reasonable price? No sane person would agree to that. But now that's the figure we have and they still want it to continue. So 4,000 isn't enough. But no-one wants to say that.

 

[Chesterton]

That's an interesting perspective. To let you know, here in the United States it is well accepted that indeed Moussaoui enrolled in flight training lessons at a school in Minneapolis, that he paid cash, and that he had no background in aviation. You may be correct for the normal situation, perhaps the fact that he paid cash made the difference. I never thought about it. The flight school reported the facts to the FBI on August 15, 2001. The whistleblower, FBI agent Mrs. Rowley, testified before Congress as to the facts.

Maybe he was learning on a flight simulator.

 

[Valletta]

There is one side bombing Gaza as you read this. Innocent people are being killed as you read this. Terrorists, almost by definition, don't concede. Do you think someone from Hamas is going to politely sit with someone from Israel and sign some terms of surrender? You either try to kill them all, or you find another solution. The world is calling out for some variant of option 2. Israel seems intent on option 1. In which case expect very many more deaths.

Apart from the truly horrendous death toll they are losing long time friends. They are losing support. Was this the ugly aim of Hamas in the first instance? I think there's a distinct possibility. Either way, reasonable people are calling for a stop to this carnage. Except some on this forum want the carnage to continue. The price hasn't been paid yet. But don't bother asking what number of dead is sufficient.

You won't get an answer. Because what sort of person would agree to 4,000 dead children as being a reasonable price? No sane person would agree to that. But now that's the figure we have and they still want it to continue. So 4,000 isn't enough. But no-one wants to say that.

Killing is killing. Because Israel has aircraft to bomb from does not excuse the continued attacks by Hamas, whether it be rockets or sniper fire or killing with knives. Hamas is willing to murder children, they will not stop at 4000.

 

[Valletta]

Maybe he was learning on a flight simulator.

Excellent! After you said that I looked it up and he did learn on a flight simulator. I have met a number of great pilots, from Paul Tibbets to Robbie Risner, but have a limited knowledge of aviation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is one side bombing Gaza as you read this. Innocent people are being killed as you read this. Terrorists, almost by definition, don't concede. Do you think someone from Hamas is going to politely sit with someone from Israel and sign some terms of surrender? You either try to kill them all, or you find another solution. The world is calling out for some variant of option 2. Israel seems intent on option 1. In which case expect very many more deaths.

Apart from the truly horrendous death toll they are losing long time friends. They are losing support. Was this the ugly aim of Hamas in the first instance? I think there's a distinct possibility. Either way, reasonable people are calling for a stop to this carnage. Except some on this forum want the carnage to continue. The price hasn't been paid yet. But don't bother asking what number of dead is sufficient.

You won't get an answer. Because what sort of person would agree to 4,000 dead children as being a reasonable price? No sane person would agree to that. But now that's the figure we have and they still want it to continue. So 4,000 isn't enough. But no-one wants to say that.

How many of the alleged 4000 were forced in harms way by Hamas ?

No deaths are reasonable but when a death cult spews hate and murder on innocents there is a just reason to respond with force.

 

[Pommer]

Abject nonsense. You need a bucketful of flying hours on smaller commercial jets before you're even allowed to touch the controls of large 4 engined jets. Nobody starts learning to fly a 747 except commercial pilots.

I believe these were flight simulators.

 

[Pommer]

How many of the alleged 4000 were forced in harms way by Hamas ?

No deaths are reasonable but when a death cult spews hate and murder on innocents there is a just reason to respond with force.

“We had to kill the hostages” is never going to be acceptable.

 

[Bradskii]

That's an interesting perspective. To let you know, here in the United States it is well accepted that indeed Moussaoui enrolled in flight training lessons at a school in Minneapolis, that he paid cash, and that he had no background in aviation. You may be correct for the normal situation, perhaps the fact that he paid cash made the difference. I never thought about it. The flight school reported the facts to the FBI on August 15, 2001. The whistleblower, FBI agent Mrs. Rowley, testified before Congress as to the facts.

Maybe you'll find this difficult to accept but landing a plane is part of the teaching process. You don't get to learn to take off and then say to the instructor 'Well, I'm good. You can land it now.'

From here: Special Report: A Review of the FBI's Handling of Intelligence Information Related to the September 11 Attacks (Full Report)

'In August 2001, Moussaoui enrolled in flight training lessons at a school in Minneapolis, Minnesota. On August 15, 2001, the flight school reported its suspicions about Moussaoui to the FBI, including that he only wanted to learn how to take off and land the airplane.'

A relevant fact would be, as @Pommer noted, that it was on a simulator, not an actual aircraft. And yes, a simulator of a 747. But anyone can fly them - you don't even need previous flying skills. A lot of enthusiasts do short courses. I've flown one myself. I was going to say 'And landed it at the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong.' But they're kinda tricky to control and Kai Tak was known as one of the world's hardest airport to land at. So I'm afraid I took out a sizeable chunk of Kowloon real estate.

 

[o_mlly]

There is one side bombing Gaza as you read this. Innocent people are being killed as you read this. Terrorists, almost by definition, don't concede. Do you think someone from Hamas is going to politely sit with someone from Israel and sign some terms of surrender? You either try to kill them all, or you find another solution. The world is calling out for some variant of option 2. Israel seems intent on option 1. In which case expect very many more deaths.

Apart from the truly horrendous death toll they are losing long time friends. They are losing support. Was this the ugly aim of Hamas in the first instance? I think there's a distinct possibility. Either way, reasonable people are calling for a stop to this carnage. Except some on this forum want the carnage to continue. The price hasn't been paid yet. But don't bother asking what number of dead is sufficient.

You won't get an answer. Because what sort of person would agree to 4,000 dead children as being a reasonable price? No sane person would agree to that. But now that's the figure we have and they still want it to continue. So 4,000 isn't enough. But no-one wants to say that.

Do you have an option 2 for Israel to consider? I'm sure they are all ears. If not then option 1 seems the only plausible course for Israelis to defend innocent lives from an unjust aggressor.

Nobody wants the carnage to continue. If you were defending your family from lethal attacks of an unjust aggressor, would it matter to you if your neighbors, said that they could no longer support you?

 

[Bradskii]

How many of the alleged 4000 were forced in harms way by Hamas ?

No deaths are reasonable but when a death cult spews hate and murder on innocents there is a just reason to respond with force.

They all lived in Gaza. Just being in Gaza when the place is being hit by bombs and rockets is 'in harm's way.' But are you actually saying that if they were indeed placed in harm's way then it justifies them being killed? What sort of outrageous argument would that be?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Maybe you'll find this difficult to accept but landing a plane is part of the teaching process. You don't get to learn to take off and then say to the instructor 'Well, I'm good. You can land it now.'

From here: Special Report: A Review of the FBI's Handling of Intelligence Information Related to the September 11 Attacks (Full Report)

'In August 2001, Moussaoui enrolled in flight training lessons at a school in Minneapolis, Minnesota. On August 15, 2001, the flight school reported its suspicions about Moussaoui to the FBI, including that he only wanted to learn how to take off and land the airplane.'

A relevant fact would be, as @Pommer noted, that it was on a simulator, not an actual aircraft. And yes, a simulator of a 747. But anyone can fly them - you don't even need previous flying skills. A lot of enthusiasts do short courses. I've flown one myself. I was going to say 'And landed it at the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong.' But they're kinda tricky to control and Kai Tak was known as one of the world's hardest airport to land at. So I'm afraid I took out a sizeable chunk of Kowloon real estate.

I landed there in one of the first 747's in 1970 in an electrical storm - unforgettable...

 

[Valletta]

Maybe you'll find this difficult to accept but landing a plane is part of the teaching process. You don't get to learn to take off and then say to the instructor 'Well, I'm good. You can land it now.'

From here: Special Report: A Review of the FBI's Handling of Intelligence Information Related to the September 11 Attacks (Full Report)

'In August 2001, Moussaoui enrolled in flight training lessons at a school in Minneapolis, Minnesota. On August 15, 2001, the flight school reported its suspicions about Moussaoui to the FBI, including that he only wanted to learn how to take off and land the airplane.'

A relevant fact would be, as @Pommer noted, that it was on a simulator, not an actual aircraft. And yes, a simulator of a 747. But anyone can fly them - you don't even need previous flying skills. A lot of enthusiasts do short courses. I've flown one myself. I was going to say 'And landed it at the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong.' But they're kinda tricky to control and Kai Tak was known as one of the world's hardest airport to land at. So I'm afraid I took out a sizeable chunk of Kowloon real estate.

Thanks for the information. Here is how is was reported by public radio:

Rowley went public with criticism that FBI officials failed to heed calls from agents in Minnesota for an aggressive investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, who was arrested just a few weeks before the attacks after officials at an Eagan flight training center where Moussaoui was taking lessons, alerted authorities about his suspicious behavior. Moussaoui allegedly wanted to learn how to fly a jet, but not how to land it.

But FBI officials in Washington concluded there was not probable cause to seek a search warrant of Moussaoui's computer. Now Moussaoui is only person in the U.S. charged in the attacks.

MPR: Former FBI whistle-blower runs for Congress

FBI 9/11 whistle blower Coleen Rowley formally launched her campaign for congress today. Rowley is challenging Republican John Kline in the 2nd District. She's running as a Democrat even though she says until recently she voted pretty much straight-line Republican, including a vote for the...

news.minnesota.publicradio.org

My point is that there are people in governments who regularly screw up. Israel is no exception. In the United State they make an art of this at the high levels. The first approach seems typically to consider "How will it look" as opposed to doing the right thing.

 

[Carl Emerson]

They all lived in Gaza. Just being in Gaza when the place is being hit by bombs and rockets is 'in harm's way.' But are you actually saying that if they were indeed placed in harm's way then it justifies them being killed? What sort of outrageous argument would that be?

Indeed... Who said that ???

However 'all care and no responsibility' is at play.

 

[Bradskii]

Do you have an option 2 for Israel to consider?

You honestly can't think of one? C'mon, give it your best shot. Let's run a few of your ideas up the flagpole and we'll see who salutes it. Then you can be the one that everyone ridicules for even suggesting that there is another option other than 'raze the place to the ground.' Because as sure as God made little green apples, any suggestion will be met with 'So, you think that X is just that simple'.

Give it a go. See how many times it gets shot down. It'll be interesting.

 

[essentialsaltes]

They all lived in Gaza. Just being in Gaza when the place is being hit by bombs and rockets is 'in harm's way.'

Just as a reference point, Gaza is smaller in area than Manhattan Island.

 

[Bradskii]

Indeed... Who said that ???

You were insinuating it by saying this: 'How many of the alleged 4000 were forced in harms way by Hamas?'

Implying that it was then Hamas fault and it exonerates Israel. 'Hey, if they keep putting them in the way then we'll just have to keep killing them. Not our fault...'

This has become an exceptionally depressing thread.

 

[wing2000]

Just as a reference point, Gaza is smaller in area than Manhattan Island.

It {Israel] dropped 6,000 bombs on the territory in the first six days of the war, a rate of ordnance far exceeding American and Western counter-terrorism campaigns. In Mosul, for instance, the American-led coalition dropped 7,000 over two months in the most intense period of bombing.

Why urban warfare in Gaza will be bloodier than in Iraq