The last gasp of Imperialism in Europe?

[RandyPNW]

I believe that Paul identified Roman leadership as the restraining entity in 2 Thes 2, keeping Antichrist from rising to power. He would not say so publicly, but likely referred his followers to Daniel 7, where Antichrist arises out of a 4th Empire, after its leadership dissolves into a multiplicity of 10 powers.

We have seen the Eastern and Western branches of the ancient Roman Empire both Christianized and gradually dissolve into a multiplicity of states. However, the Roman Imperial Tradition has kept the rise of Antichrist in check, both by its Christian leadership and by its imperial hold on Western culture.

The Holy Roman Empire has long since passed, but a variety of imperial forces coming out of Europe have persisted, keeping Antichrist in check. One of the last of these imperial forces is Russia, who is making one last gasp to rebuild the Russian Empire.

But I believe imperialism is about to finally be completely dissolved in Europe, making way for the rise of Antichrist. His will be a new kind of Empire, returning Europe to its original paganism and attempting to drive Christianity into oblivion. That spirit is already at work, but soon it will be very much a political reality all across Europe.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The Kingdom of God will never be defeated or driven into oblivion.

 

[RandyPNW]

The Kingdom of God will never be defeated or driven into oblivion.

Absolutely true. However, the Scriptures are also true, which say:

Dan 7.21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them.

The defeat of the Church by Antichrist is somewhat illusory and temporary, since Christ returns to utterly defeat him and those who follow him. Our defeat is actually our victory.

 

[Aaron112]

The Kingdom of God will never be defeated or driven into oblivion.

Amen. and yet....
Jesus told the messengers of God that "the Kingdom of God IS within you" at one or more times.
Likewise, if anyone tramples underfoot the grace of Jesus, purposefully and willfully denying and opposing the taste of life they once experienced in this lifetime,
then it MIGHT fit being said that within them the Kingdom of God was exchanged for darkness and oblivion ! i.e. in the hearts of the wicked, whether the Kingdom of God was ever there (probably was not ever there according to Scripture),
but if it was or not, the wicked who are already condemned because of their unbelief
have darkness and oblivion (if the definition of oblivion fits) in their hearts (and souls?) ....

 

[Aaron112]

I believe that Paul identified Roman leadership as the restraining entity in 2 Thes 2, keeping Antichrist from rising to power.

I believe this is wrong. And some or all that follows in the op post also....

 

[RandyPNW]

I believe this is wrong. And some or all that follows in the op post also....

Yes, the interpretation is controversial. You're welcome to voice your own opinion. I've noted that Putin has been attempting to establish the old Russian Empire, hating the collapse of the former Soviet Union. But the collapse of empires in Europe has had quite a history, and has been a phenomenon going on for some time. The world wars have put an end to some of these empires. All but Russia in this region is attempting to restart their empire.

I believe this is something anticipated in biblical prophecy, as seen in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream (Dan 2) and in Daniel's Dream (Dan 7). The 4th Beast is, I believe, the Roman Empire, which like the 2 legs of Nebuchadnezzar's Image, came to be displayed as two divisions, East and West. These two divisions came to represent two major branches of Christianity, as well, the Orthodox and the Catholic branches.

So we ask, what has been restraining the ultimate rise of Antichrist, since Antichristianity has been present since Christ was crucified? I believe it is the prophecy that the Roman Empire, and its two branches, would be extended until the end of history.

You're welcome to think it was the Holy Spirit that restrained Antichrist. And I'm sure He has played a substantial role. But in terms of the prophecy itself, it seems more likely that it was the 4th Empire itself until the emperor and his successors come to their end. And I believe Putin is coming to his end.

 

[Douggg]

I believe that Paul identified Roman leadership as the restraining entity in 2 Thes 2, keeping Antichrist from rising to power.

Randy, 2Thessalonians2 is not about keeping the Antichrist from rising to power.

Paul was indicating that rapture would happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Once the church is removed from earth, then the Antichrist is no longer restrained from doing that act.

When he does do the act - it triggers the beginning of the day of the Lord, during which the wrath of God will be poured out. And in 1Thessalonains5:9-11, we are not appointed to wrath, but salvation. That whether we sleep or alive, to forever be with Lord - i.e. the rapture/resurrection.
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The actual rise of the person to become the Antichrist is not something the church's presence on the earth is preventing from happening.

The church may be here on earth when the 7 years begin, but will be gone before the Antichrist near the end of the first half does his act of 2Thessalonains2:4.

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As far as imperialism goes, that is defined as a nation(s) extending it's influence by political and/or military means. When the little horn person in Daniel 7 first comes to power, it appears to be by both.

Right now in the EU, we see the situation of Ukraine in a war with Russia, and Zelensky extending his influence both politically and militarily. Ukraine is politically on a fast track by the EU to become a member of in full status. So I would watch for Ukraine's inductance to happen soon.

Zelensky happens to be a Jew. And the person who becomes the Antichrist must be a Jew.

It should be noted that the Jews (Judaism) are expecting their messiah to be a influential politician and have military capability as well.

So it seems that things seem to be falling place.

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In Daniel 7, the persecution of the saints, by the little horn, is after that person has become the beast-king, dictator of the EU, for the second half of the 7 years. The saints at that time will be the Jews and other persons in addition to them who become Christians after the church, the body of Christ, made up of individual Christians worldwide, is gone from this world by the rapture.

The church will not be here during the beast-king's reign of persecution.

 

[Aaron112]

I believe that Paul identified Roman leadership as the restraining entity in 2 Thes 2, keeping Antichrist from rising to power.

Yet then who do you think rose to power for the last 2000 years ? Obviously not Jesus or anyone following Jesus !

excerpt from biblegateway , the 2nd Thessalonians 2 passage in part:

"For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming."


This does not 'fit' the Roman nor any other government on earth "entity" at all.

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, 2Thessalonians2 is not about keeping the Antichrist from rising to power.

Paul was indicating that rapture would happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Once the church is removed from earth, then the Antichrist is no longer restrained from doing that act.

When he does do the act - it triggers the beginning of the day of the Lord, during which the wrath of God will be poured out. And in 1Thessalonains5:9-11, we are not appointed to wrath, but salvation. That whether we sleep or alive, to forever be with Lord - i.e. the rapture/resurrection.
----------------------------------------------------------------

The actual rise of the person to become the Antichrist is not something the church's presence on the earth is preventing from happening.

The church may be here on earth when the 7 years begin, but will be gone before the Antichrist near the end of the first half does his act of 2Thessalonains2:4.

--------------------------------------------------------------

As far as imperialism goes, that is defined as a nation(s) extending it's influence by political and/or military means. When the little horn person in Daniel 7 first comes to power, it appears to be by both.

Right now in the EU, we see the situation of Ukraine in a war with Russia, and Zelensky extending his influence both politically and militarily. Ukraine is politically on a fast track by the EU to become a member of in full status. So I would watch for Ukraine's inductance to happen soon.

Zelensky happens to be a Jew. And the person who becomes the Antichrist must be a Jew.

It should be noted that the Jews (Judaism) are expecting their messiah to be a influential politician and have military capability as well.

So it seems that things seem to be falling place.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Daniel 7, the persecution of the saints, by the little horn, is after that person has become the beast-king, dictator of the EU, for the second half of the 7 years. The saints at that time will be the Jews and other persons in addition to them who become Christians after the church, the body of Christ, made up of individual Christians worldwide, is gone from this world by the rapture.

The church will not be here during the beast-king's reign of persecution.

Sorry, I can't buy into your scenario. I've heard this approach many times through the years. But it doesn't hold water, as far as I'm concerned. The scenario seems to be created in order to validate Pretrib Theology. Since I find no basis for Pretrib Theology, I don't need these kinds of interpretations, which are wildly out of place with the actual Scriptures they claim to be based on.

For example, what is the basis for two halves of a 7 year Reign of Antichrist?
What is the basis for Antichrist being a Jew?
What is the basis for a Pretrib Rapture of the Church?
What is your basis for saying 2 Thes 2 is not about restraining the Antichrist from coming to power?

Quite frankly, you contradict the last point by saying that Antichrist is being restrained. You said,
"Once the church is removed from earth, then the Antichrist is no longer restrained from doing that act."

So why are you saying this is not about Antichrist being restrained, and then saying he is no longer being restrained? I don't understand. And quite frankly, I can't accept a theology that does not directly relate to the Scriptures being referred to. Most importantly, the context of these Scriptural statements must be understood.

 

[RandyPNW]

Yet then who do you think rose to power for the last 2000 years ? Obviously not Jesus or anyone following Jesus !

This has nothing to do with Jesus or Christians, but rather with the Roman leadership, or European leadership that originated from the Roman imperial tradition. From Caesar to the Holy Roman Emperor to modern European forms of imperial power, Antichrist has been restrained from assuming complete control over Europe. When Christianity completely dissipates from European Civilization, political unity is lost, and Antichrist will be able to realign European States under his own control.

 

[Douggg]

Quite frankly, you contradict the last point by saying that Antichrist is being restrained. You said,
"Once the church is removed from earth, then the Antichrist is no longer restrained from doing that act."

So why are you saying this is not about Antichrist being restrained, and then saying he is no longer being restrained?

Randy, because 2Thessialonians2:4 is about the person revealed as "the man of sin" (stage 4 on my chart) NOT as being revealed as the Antichrist (stage 3 on my chart).

(btw, the pre-trib view does think as you say - revealed as the Antichrist - which in turn, according to pre-trib takes place as the 70th week begins. I am not pre-trib, but anytime rapture view which holds that the church may still be here, even after the 70th week begins, but must be raptured before the person reveals himself as the "man of sin" around three years into the 70th week. )

The person will have already become the Antichrist before being revealed as "the man of sin".

2Thessalonains2:4 is about the Antichrist being revealed as "the man of sin" - i.e revealed that he is not the messiah as the Jews will have previously thought. What restrains him from being revealed as "the man of sin", is that the church may still be here up to that point.

To fully understand, a person has to understand the 5 stages that the Antichrist person goes through on his way to his demise.

I made this chart of those 5 stages. Being the Antichrist is just one of them, as being the phony "King of Israel" who comes in his own name..... comes in his own name is in John 5:43.

For the other stages, he is not the Antichrist. Being the Antichrist is only for the time of being the phony King of Israel. Referring to the person, universally as the Antichrist - has become a sort of catch phrase for the person. But technically, is not actually correct.

"Christ, the King of Israel" - Mark 15:32. Matthew 27:42.

(Anti) Christ, (phony) King of Israel.... compared to.... (Jesus) Christ, (true) King of Israel....who came in his Father's name.

Briefly, the 5 stages are as the little horn > then as the prince who shall come > then as the Antichrist > then as the revealed man of sin > then as the beast (king)

The person is not yet in stage 1. But it is probably close at hand.

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, because 2Thessialonians2:4 is about the person revealed as "the man of sin" (stage 4 on my chart) NOT as being revealed as the Antichrist (stage 3 on my chart).

Yes, Doug, we've been down this road before, right? Well, I respect what you choose to believe--I just can't believe that for the reasons given. If someone is identified as X, he isn't then given 3 other identities, W, Y, and Z without creating a lot of confusion. Where is this ever done anywhere in life or in the Bible?

(btw, the pre-trib view does think as you say - revealed as the Antichrist - which in turn, according to pre-trib takes place as the 70th week begins. I am not pre-trib, but anytime rapture view which holds that the church may still be here, even after the 70th week begins, but must be raptured before the person reveals himself as the "man of sin" around three years into the 70th week. )

You're mid-trib then? As I've said before, the passage reads (paraphrased), "The day of Christ's Coming for his Church will not take place unless the Apostasy of Antichrist is revealed first. Then Christ will come to destroy him with the breath of his mouth."

It's pretty simple. Christ comes for his Church at the same time he comes to destroy Antichrist. Just my view, brother...

 

[Douggg]

Yes, Doug, we've been down this road before, right? Well, I respect what you choose to believe--I just can't believe that for the reasons given. If someone is identified as X, he isn't then given 3 other identities, W, Y, and Z without creating a lot of confusion. Where is this ever done anywhere in life or in the Bible?

It is common in everyday life. A single woman who gets married - functional role in life for her changed - and she is no longer addressed by her maiden name but her married name.

A better example....

John F Kennedy -
Lieutenant - PT 109 boat, then...
Senator - U.S congress, then...
President - of the United States

All different stages of his life. 3 different functional roles.

A news reporter at the time JFK was Senator, at a press conference would not address him as Lieutenant Kennedy, would they? Why not? Because JFK was no longer in that functional role.

 

[Douggg]

You're mid-trib then? As I've said before, the passage reads (paraphrased), "The day of Christ's Coming for his Church will not take place unless the Apostasy of Antichrist is revealed first. Then Christ will come to destroy him with the breath of his mouth."

The "trib" timing views are very restrictive in their nature.

pre-trib - is before the 70 weeks begin, and no time other than.
mid-trib - is in the middle of the 70 weeks, and no time other than.
post-trib - is at the end of the 70 weeks, and no time other than.

The anytime rapture view is more flexible. Anytime, from right this very second - but before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

Right now, we are in the pre-trib range. Once the 70th weeks starts, we are out of the pre-trib range. The anytime rapture view takes into account that the rapture may take place in the pre-trib range - but does not say it has to.

 

[RandyPNW]

It is common in everyday life. A single woman who gets married - functional role in life for her changed - and she is no longer addressed by her maiden name but her married name.

A better example....

John F Kennedy -
Lieutenant - PT 109 boat, then...
Senator - U.S congress, then...
President - of the United States

All different stages of his life. 3 different functional roles.

A news reporter at the time JFK was Senator, at a press conference would not address him as Lieutenant Kennedy, would they? Why not? Because JFK was no longer in that functional role.

Yes, but all of the roles are identified with the named person, JFK. Without reference to JFK the functional roles could apply to anybody who has any of those roles.

 

[RandyPNW]

The "trib" timing views are very restrictive in their nature.

pre-trib - is before the 70 weeks begin, and no time other than.
mid-trib - is in the middle of the 70 weeks, and no time other than.
post-trib - is at the end of the 70 weeks, and no time other than.

The anytime rapture view is more flexible. Anytime, from right this very second - but before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

Right now, we are in the pre-trib range. Once the 70th weeks starts, we are out of the pre-trib range. The anytime rapture view takes into account that the rapture may take place in the pre-trib range - but does not say it has to.




View attachment 337308

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says Christ can literally return on *any day!* To "watch" for him implies readiness, not in the sense he may come today, but only in the sense that we must always live in good moral standing with God. To be prepared for his coming is to always be walking in the light. I can be morally prepared for the Kingdom right now simply by living a clean life--it has nothing to do with when it will come.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, but all of the roles are identified with the named person, JFK. Without reference to JFK the functional roles could apply to anybody who has any of those roles.

Sure, but there is going to be only one person to go through the roles of being the little horn, then the prince who shall come, then the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast (king).

 

[Douggg]

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says Christ can literally return on *any day!*

I was not referring to Jesus's "return", but when the rapture will take place.

I named my view as the "anytime" rapture, by borrowing from Luke 21:34-36....

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

To "watch" for him implies readiness, not in the sense he may come today, but only in the sense that we must always live in good moral standing with God. To be prepared for his coming is to always be walking in the light. I can be morally prepared for the Kingdom right now simply by living a clean life--it has nothing to do with when it will come.

Okay. To me, the rapture/resurrection event is the great hope Christians have for the redemption of our bodies. Redemption of my body, for me, is one of the central thoughts in my life. Also the troubles of this world will be over at that point.

 

[RandyPNW]

Sure, but there is going to be only one person to go through the roles of being the little horn, then the prince who shall come, then the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast (king).

So why even distinguish them by their different roles, if they are all the "Antichrist?" You seem to be saying that the same Man, the same "Little Horn," will be one thing and then stop being that thing, then become another thing, and then stop being that thing, etc.

This confuses the identity of the person as if they are each separate individuals, or terribly confused individuals? How can the "Antichrist" *not* be the Antichrist at some point? Or, how can he began as *not* the Antichrist, and then suddenly *become* the Antichrist?

 

[RandyPNW]

I was not referring to Jesus's "return", but when the rapture will take place.

I named my view as the "anytime" rapture, by borrowing from Luke 21:34-36....

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I believe Jesus was here referring to the land of Israel, the "whole" of Israel, which was to experience a Roman invasion in that very generation (70 AD). This is not the Rapture, but a great judgment from God, coming due to Israel's rejection of Messiah.

At any rate, how can you have a Rapture of the Church without a 2nd Coming?