Solving the Problem of false doctrine

[GDL]

Now, reminds of an old Star Trek episode where the disruptive alien spirit could only be ejected by doing just the opposite of what it was causing among the crew.

 

[Darren Court]

Hilarious? My sentiments exactly. Your whole post is hilarious. You're equating a history book called the Bible with the spoken divine Word of God's mouth. The spoken divine Word (Isa 55:11) is what came to prophets such as Abraham. To put it loosely, prophecy IS the divine Word:

"The [divine] word of the Lord came to [the prophet] Abram in a vision [speaking promises]." (Gen 15:1).

A history book is powerless. The divine Word is the actual power of God.

I'll admit that the biblical writers blurred the distinction at times - that's to be expected because the history book is inspired by the divine Word. But that doesn't mean we should be foolish enough to conflate the two.

When you have something reasonable to say, I'll take a closer look.

I prophesied you would divert and you did..... hilarious!

 

[JAL]

I prophesied you would divert and you did..... hilarious!

Ok, guy.

 

[Darren Court]

Are you trying to argue that prophecy doesn't work? Can't be counted on? Throw out your Bible, then, seems you can't trust the writings of prophets.

No I'm just speaking to a false prophet!

 

[JAL]

No I'm just speaking to a false prophet!

Wow. What a brilliantly perceptive and illuminating attack. I recant my whole theology.

 

[Darren Court]

Wow. What a brilliantly perceptive and illuminating attack. I recant my whole theology.

Don't be silly. A false prophet has never recanted!

 

[JAL]

Don't be silly. A false prophet has never recanted!

Ok, guy.

 

[GDL]

(But of course - If you were lost in the forest you would search for the right solution like your life depended on it.)

Since there is false doctrine and disparity in interpretations, I think we're all still lost in the forest to some degree, and some or many are always searching for the solution(s), which seems to be the point of a few of the "solutions in the Bible" in your post #4.

I'd add Philippians 3 to the continual seeking until the end where Paul says as many as are perfect/mature are to continue with him in seeking perfection - arrival at the resurrection. IOW, the pursuit of being conformed to Christ doesn't stop here and along the way more and more false doctrine should be cleared up.

3. What you don't know can't hurt you as long as you are staying with the pack, the herd, the group.

This is IMO one of the worse solutions. Many herds are babysitting services at best and thereby limit severely the advance just mentioned above.

Pardon my involvement in the foolish hijacking of the thread. I'm open to a better understanding of the ministry of the Spirit even though He has guided me into the truth He has to this point and obviously has written some Law on my heart causing me to view and experience things very differently in life.

Any thoughts on when the corporate unity of the faith in Eph4 comes about? Are we subject to all the disparity until this era is over IYO?

 

[Aaron112]

Whatever solution you have chosen - you probably end up near here -
1. No matter the case - I don't think the problem of false doctrine affects me or my family.
2. God knows it is confusing and knows that nobody is perfect - so I am ok.
3. What you don't know can't hurt you as long as you are staying with the pack, the herd, the group.

Verify what you mean is that false doctrine does affect someone thinking this way,
and instead of thinking "I am ok" the 'I' that "end up near here" should realize they are not ok,
and that "if you stay with the pack" that is in false doctrine error and worse, they can and are and do get hurt and hurt those in their own family and neighborhood andjob.

 

[Aaron112]

Conversely, if you ask "Sola Scriptura" person how they can be sure of the interpretation of scripture, they have to concede it is through the Holy Spirit... with the problem being that so many get different interpretations, they can't all be the Holy Spirit. In other words many aren't listening to the Holy Spirit.

In other words, both sides of this argument rely upon the same thing, the Holy Spirit to claim they're right... and that's ironic.

Do you mean in a way the same thing that Jesus confronted in those who claimed to be sons of Abraham, true men of God, who were opposed to Jesus and sought to kill Him and His followers later too ? They really really really thought they were God's priests to serve in His Temple, and yet did not recognize Him when He was with them fulfilling all Torah and Scripture and prophecy about Him , that they 'should of known', but their hearts were hardened .... ?

 

[Aaron112]

This is IMO one of the worse solutions. Many herds are babysitting services at best and thereby limit severely the advance just mentioned above.

I looked at the quote you quote, in context, and it looks to me like he meant that people end up saying that , not realizing that 'defense' keeps them remaining in witting or unwitting error.

 

[Darren Court]

Do you mean in a way the same thing that Jesus confronted in those who claimed to be sons of Abraham, true men of God, who were opposed to Jesus and sought to kill Him and His followers later too ? They really really really thought they were God's priests to serve in His Temple, and yet did not recognize Him when He was with them fulfilling all Torah and Scripture and prophecy about Him , that they 'should of known', but their hearts were hardened .... ?

Absolutely. Having scripture and arguing from scripture doesn't mean I'm right. If the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me in the interpretation of scripture then I'm wrong.

 

[Aaron112]

Absolutely. Having scripture and arguing from scripture doesn't mean I'm right. If the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me in the interpretation of scripture then I'm wrong.

If the Father in heaven reveals the truth to Simon barJonah that Jesus is the Messiah, Simon barJonah does not get to interpret that some other way - he doesn't interpret that at all. He simply believes and Jesus calls him "blessed art thou" because the heavenly Father revealed that to him, flesh and blood, man, mankind or study, did not.
Can you see that false doctine is eliminated if /with/for a people to whom the Father reveals His Word, His Meaning, not leaving it up to man's interpretation ever ,
as long as the people to whom the Father reveals His Word remain true to Him, and do not lie nor go astray from His Word.

 

[Darren Court]

If the Father in heaven reveals the truth to Simon barJonah that Jesus is the Messiah, Simon barJonah does not get to interpret that some other way - he doesn't interpret that at all. He simply believes and Jesus calls him "blessed art thou" because the heavenly Father revealed that to him, flesh and blood, man, mankind or study, did not.

Of course, that's exactly what I'm saying! "If the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me in the interpretation of scripture then I'm wrong."
Note I didn't say I was interpreting scripture and technically the bible does not say that all truth is "revealed". It does say that the Holy Spirit will "guide" us into all truth... which means He leads but we must follow. We can't find it without following Him but we also place the part of following.

 

[Aaron112]

Of course, that's exactly what I'm saying! "If the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me in the interpretation of scripture then I'm wrong."
Note I didn't say I was interpreting scripture and technically the bible does not say that all truth is "revealed". It does say that the Holy Spirit will "guide" us into all truth... which means He leads but we must follow. We can't find it without following Him but we also place the part of following.

Whether on purpose or not, I cannot tell from here.
Jesus says THE FATHER reveals all truth about Salvation in this life and the next to little children,
and hides it from the educated ones, because this is His Good Pleasure so to do. /today as always/

 

[Darren Court]

Whether on purpose or not, I cannot tell from here.
Jesus says THE FATHER reveals all truth about Salvation in this life and the next to little children,
and hides it from the educated ones, because this is His Good Pleasure so to do. /today as always/

Please quote the scripture where Jesus says the Father reveals all the truth of salvation... I can only see where Paul tells we cannot call Him Lord lest it's revealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[JAL]

Of course, that's exactly what I'm saying! "If the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me in the interpretation of scripture then I'm wrong."
Note I didn't say I was interpreting scripture and technically the bible does not say that all truth is "revealed". It does say that the Holy Spirit will "guide" us into all truth... which means He leads but we must follow. We can't find it without following Him but we also place the part of following.

Without authoritative Inward Witness, I honestly don't know what you Sola Scriptura people expect unbelievers to do. Suppose you preach the gospel to some atheists. As you do so, the Spirit convicts them. To them, therefore, the message SEEMS authoritative.

At this point, what do you, as the preacher, want them to do?
....(A) Accept the gospel.
....(B) Postpone the decision until they become bible scholars sufficiently qualified to "test" the message via Sola Scriptura analysis. Of course if that testing fails due to scholarly error, they might reject the gospel and end up in hell.

????

Oh that's right. As you and @GDL already indicated, choice A makes no sense because that would be stupid mysticism.

 

[Darren Court]

Without authoritative Inward Witness, I honestly don't know what you Sola Scriptura people expect unbelievers to do. Suppose you preach the gospel to some atheists. As you do so, the Spirit convicts them. To them, therefore, the message SEEMS authoritative.

At this point, what do you, as the preacher, want them to do?
....(A) Accept the gospel.
....(B) Postpone the decision until they become bible scholars sufficiently qualified to "test" the message via Sola Scriptura analysis. Of course if that testing fails due to scholarly error, they might reject the gospel and end up in hell.

????

Oh that's right. As you and @GDL already indicated, choice A makes no sense because that would be stupid mysticism.

That's the problem right there! You don't believe scripture!
.
Does it not say " and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit."
.
It means that scripture says nobody can see the truth of scripture UNLESS it is revealed by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say that "but the Holy Spirit will reveal things contrary to scripture that God instructed people to write"!!!
.
But let's take your silly example because it serves to point out the absurdity! "Suppose you preach the gospel to some atheists. As you do so, the Spirit convicts them. To them, therefore, the message SEEMS authoritative."... but then when we ask them about their conviction, they tell us that they believe the Lord Jesus is one of seven brothers that come from seven planets..... According to you, woopie doo, they must be write because we have no means to validate the "authoritative voice" they heard. Worse still they are charismatic, and get a TV audience of millions and your family listen and think the guy really has heard the "authoritative voice" and join him. What do you do? Argue that your "authoritative voice" says they're wrong? Of course, not! You tell them you have some secret pearls that they have to earn to learn and they just never speak to you again!

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!"

 

[JAL]

That's the problem right there! You don't believe scripture!
.
Does it not say " and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit."
.
It means that scripture says nobody can see the truth of scripture UNLESS it is revealed by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say that "but the Holy Spirit will reveal things contrary to scripture that God instructed people to write"!!!
.
But let's take your silly example because it serves to point out the absurdity! "Suppose you preach the gospel to some atheists. As you do so, the Spirit convicts them. To them, therefore, the message SEEMS authoritative."... but then when we ask them about their conviction, they tell us that they believe the Lord Jesus is one of seven brothers that come from seven planets..... According to you, woopie doo, they must be write because we have no means to validate the "authoritative voice" they heard. Worse still they are charismatic, and get a TV audience of millions and your family listen and think the guy really has heard the "authoritative voice" and join him. What do you do? Argue that your "authoritative voice" says they're wrong? Of course, not! You tell them you have some secret pearls that they have to earn to learn and they just never speak to you again!

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!"

I gave you a simple choice A versus B. Naturally you deflect, going off on some tangent about corrupt TV evangelists.

Gee. I'm surprised.

 

[Darren Court]

I gave you a simple choice A versus B. Naturally you deflect, going off on some tangent about corrupt TV evangelists.

Gee. I'm surprised.

I am THRILLED you're not surprised I didn't waste time on your ridiculous example and you didn't even try to defend your example which is testimony to the fact my response at least made you realise it was absurd!
.
..but let's nail it some more by giving you a similar example of my own, which I'm betting you won't answer A or B either!
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Are people who ignore scripture and believe in God's "infallible voice"
a) Living in a delusion of their own design
b) Acting as Satan's agent.
.
Come on now, you like to play this absurd games and limit the choices to just two ridiculous options and we're forced to chose one or the other according to your rules of engagement and so I expect you to have the integrity to choose A or B!
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Wouldn't a false prophet be the sort of person to create a situation with just two deceitful options?