I don't understand Romans 9 anymore

[friend of]

"Does not the potter have the right ..."
Does this suggest that God "is active" or that God "has the right to be active"?

As a 5 point Calvinist, I am frequently accused of going beyond what the text actually says, so this is just an effort to "verify" that the text really says what we think it says. To "rightly divide the word".

Paul's asking but he is also implying that God is actually active in the process, I'd say. I don't think God is ever completely passive towards His creatures.

 

[atpollard]

God's calling is a mystery - that is to say - something revealed by God but whose mechanisms and inner workings are not yet revealed. So, be content, as saint Paul advises in this passage, with the facts that are present today and rely on God's goodness, truth, mercy, and justice to show why things are as they are.

Oh no ... a Lutheran!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Oh no ... a Lutheran!

No. no
A Catholic.

I went back to edit that post to avoid a misreading that can arise in the hands of Calvinism's theories.

 

[Clare73]

it is one of the hardest parts of the bible to take in.

Indeed!

Only the grace of God enables one to do so.

Yes, God is objectively Good, and in fact, being the creator, gets to define good.

But the chapter seems to suggest that He creates some people.... just to torture forever and have suffer.
and that is a hard pill to swallow and accept as a good and benevolent creator.

Or he created Adam with a righteous nature and the ability to choose either good or evil. . .and Adam chose evil.

Only God is able to evaluate the gravity and consequences of that decision, because only the infinite God truly sees the totality of its nature.

Everything else after that is the collateral damage of Adam's rebellion. . .which is actually far more than we can comprehend or imagine, being only finite beings. . .it all being so bad that man could not possibly fix it. . .only the divine could redeem it . . .and at so great a price.
God's justice did not allow him to go easy even on himself.

 

[atpollard]

No. no
A Catholic.

I went back to edit that post to avoid a misreading that can arise in the hands of Calvinism's theories.

Sorry, Lutherans are famous (infamous) for throwing down the "mystery" card [well, that and the whole everything can be divided into "Law" or "Grace" bit]. I'm a Particular Baptist ... you know, one of those "mean Calvinists" that claims God hates everyone [or is it the mean Calvinists that hate everyone ... or is it everyone that hates the mean Calvinists ... I just can't keep that straight.]
I just know that as both Particular (calvinist) and Baptist (credobaptist) - EVERYONE disagrees with how I interpret scripture.
[That makes me lonely and requires a sense of humor.]

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sorry, Lutherans are famous (infamous) for throwing down the "mystery" card [well, that and the whole everything can be divided into "Law" or "Grace" bit]. I'm a Particular Baptist ... you know, one of those "mean Calvinists" that claims God hates everyone [or is it the mean Calvinists that hate everyone ... or is it everyone that hates the mean Calvinists ... I just can't keep that straight.]
I just know that as both Particular (calvinist) and Baptist (credobaptist) - EVERYONE disagrees with how I interpret scripture.
[That makes me lonely and requires a sense of humor.]

Being a Catholic the whole Calvinist Vs the world schtick as well as Lutheran everything is Law & Gospel kind of leaves me confused. Neither makes much sense. But God's purposes are a mystery until he explains them. That's what Moses said and I think Moses got that right.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, Lutherans are famous (infamous) for throwing down the "mystery" card [well, that and the whole everything can be divided into "Law"
or "Grace" bit]. I'm a Particular Baptist ... you know, one of those "mean Calvinists" that claims God hates everyone [or is it the mean Calvinists that hate everyone ... or is it everyone that hates the mean Calvinists ... I just can't keep that straight.]

I just know that as both Particular (calvinist) and Baptist (credobaptist) - EVERYONE disagrees with how I interpret scripture.
[That makes me lonely and requires a sense of humor.]

 

[friend of]

Or he created Adam with a righteous nature and the ability to choose either good or evil. . .and Adam chose evil.

Hm. But then how were Adam and Eve supposed to know that obeying God = good while disobeying God = bad if they had no knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit?

 

[Clare73]

Hm. But then how were Adam and Eve supposed to know that obeying God = good while disobeying God = bad if they had no knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit?

What part of "Thou shalt not or dying, you will die" do you think he did not understand?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What part of "Thou shalt not or dying, you will die" do you think he did not understand?

Well, that quote looks like messy grammar. This is better "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Clare73
He has explained them in the Scriptures. . .

Where?

 

[Clare73]

Where?

There is much there.

What did you have in mind?

 

[atpollard]

Being a Catholic the whole Calvinist Vs the world schtick as well as Lutheran everything is Law & Gospel kind of leaves me confused. Neither makes much sense. But God's purposes are a mystery until he explains them. That's what Moses said and I think Moses got that right.

I'll let a Lutheran explain Lutheranism, but here is "Calvinism for Dummies":

1. Everybody without exception chooses to run and hide from God.
2. Nobody will voluntarily choose to believe and be saved.
3. Therefore, GOD must do all of the work: drawing them to Jesus, giving them faith, empowering them to believe, actually saving them.

That's it. Ephesians 2:1-10 presents the clearest picture of the "Calvinist" world view. It is all about what God does to save us.
This view REALLY (makes many people angry) who think that "the Calvinist" God is unfair for not saving EVERYONE, so they come up with another explanation.

[EDIT: replace slang]

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

here is "Calvinism for Dummies":

1. Everybody without exception chooses to run and hide from God.
2. Nobody will voluntarily choose to believe and be saved.
3. Therefore, GOD must do all of the work: drawing them to Jesus, giving them faith, empowering them to be believe, actually saving them.

I've seen that stuff before.
I think it is mistaken.

 

[friend of]

What part of "Thou shalt not or dying, you will die" do you think he did not understand?

The fact that they had no real concept of death, maybe?

 

[friend of]

I've seen that stuff before.
I think it is mistaken.

Yeah agreed. When I was a very young child I loved God a lot. It was just an automatic thing.

 

[Clare73]

The fact that they had no real concept of death, maybe?

It matters not, as long as he understood "Thou shalt not."
No reason needs to be given, only the command. . .to test one's love of and submission to God. . .the failure of which is catastrophic,
as it was for the fallen angels who also failed their test and also lost their righteousness. . .but Jesus did not fail his test (the cross) nor lose his righteousness..

 

[atpollard]

I've seen that stuff before.
I think it is mistaken.

Fair enough.
I am not out to convince everyone that Calvinism is true ... what you believe is between you and God (ie. None of my business).
I just want people to reject what Calvinism actually teaches rather than some silly "cartoon version" that non-Calvinists present.
In Post #46, you said it leaves you "confused", so I was attempting to "un-confuse"
If you understand and disagree, then "have at it with my blessings": (that is a whole different thing).

Like my Moravian Brothers say: "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity."

 

[Jamdoc]

Indeed!

Only the grace of God enables one to do so.

Or he created Adam with a righteous nature and the ability to choose either good or evil. . .and Adam chose evil.

Only God is able to evaluate the gravity and consequences of that decision, because only the infinite God truly sees the totality of its nature.

Everything else after that is the collateral damage of Adam's rebellion. . .which is actually far more than we can comprehend or imagine, being only finite beings. . .it all being so bad that man could not possibly fix it. . .only the divine could redeem it . . .and at so great a price.
God's justice did not allow him to go easy even on himself.

What I mean is people after Adam.. if God knows how they will choose, why not just "yeah I'm not going to create this person, they'd suffer forever and I'm more merciful than that."
They can't sin if they were never created to begin with you know.

 

[Lost Witness]

i think Romans 8:28 has a much larger application than anyone could imagine,