• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

I don't understand Romans 9 anymore

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,877
3,137
Australia
Visit site
✟916,720.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
It is a hard concept to come to terms with. But we have to realize:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God does not just send people to hell. He gives them many chances to repent.

1Ti 2:4-6 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;

So the question must be asked why do so many people perish? I believe we see a shadow of God in people. We see the good he has put in them, patience, kindness, an love, and wonder how God could send them to hell. But there is a deeper reality:

Gen 6:3 … Gen 6:5-8 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years….And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.



What am I trying to show with the above scriptures? A few things A) God had to reduce the time span that man lived due to the fact that 1) he did not repent, 2) he was becoming exceedingly evil. B) When God created man in His own image, God had hoped He would live rightly, but man’s every thought “of his heart was only evil continually” C) So God regretted making man.

We see from the above statements that, A) God did not plan for man to be evil, B) God still has the attributes of the Spirit of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control. C) But there is still an unknown, which is not made known through scripture, why does God punish people so severely if God made them in the first place?

I don’t have an answer to that question, what I do have an answer for however is, “we”, you and I have accepted God’s offer of salvation through Christ. I don’t know about you, but God has been exceedingly patient with me, forgiving me for many sins and rebellions. I don’t wish to add the rebellion of forsaking the LORD to that list. Basically “If God can save you, and God can save I”, we should be grateful and praise Him for his actual love, kindness, and mercy, for He is giving it to others. Let’s not look at those who perish, for they do so by rejecting the longsuffering that we have been extended.
 
  • Like
Reactions: friend of
Upvote 0

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2017
1,825
883
63
Florida
✟130,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We become objects of wrath because of our sins, not because we were born with sinful natures over which we had no control.

We're held responsible for our personal thoughts, words, actions and inactions - not because the human race is inclined to sin.

It boils down to our individual choices.
While true, does the "poison" not run deeper. Ultimately, are men not "enemies of God" by our own choice and, thus, banished from His Kingdom and presence both Justly and in fulfillment of OUR DESIRE to flee from Him:
  • "And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden." Genesis 3:8 [NKJV]
  • "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." John 3:19-20 [NKJV]
  • "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up ..." Romans 1:18-24 [NKJV]
Torment may be less a punishment inflicted than an inescapable consequence of the created thing demanding separation from its Creator - the source of life and Love and Peace and Joy and Hope and all that is Good.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,182
7,780
North Carolina
✟367,563.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We become objects of wrath because of our sins, not because we were born with sinful natures over which we had no control.
Are we not by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3)?
We're held responsible for our personal thoughts, words, actions and inactions - not because the human race is inclined to sin.

It boils down to our individual choices.
Are we not born condemned (Ro 5:18),
by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
with the sin of Adam imputed to us which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when
there was no sin because there was no law to sin against (Ro 5:12-15)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: atpollard
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,748
429
Canada
✟324,928.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

You assumed wrong. Romans 9 actually has the answer by itself.

Romans 9:8 (NIV)
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

It's not about 2 boys, it's rather about a boy and a wanabe wolf.

Alternatively, it's about the wheat and the weeds. The weeds are burnt maybe for the reason that the boy is taught a leason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: atpollard
Upvote 0

friend of

A private in Gods army
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2016
5,956
4,229
provincial
✟1,014,654.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You assumed wrong. Romans 9 actually has the answer by itself.

Romans 9:8 (NIV)
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

It's not about 2 boys, it's rather about a boy and a wanabe wolf.

Alternatively, it's about the wheat and the weeds. The weeds are burnt maybe for the reason that the boy is taught a leason.
Yet both are human beings created by God in God's image, so shouldn't that count for something as far as God loving both of them by sheer virtue of those very reasons? Why does He have to choose at all?
 
Upvote 0

friend of

A private in Gods army
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2016
5,956
4,229
provincial
✟1,014,654.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We're held responsible for our personal thoughts, words, actions and inactions - not because the human race is inclined to sin.
But we are inclined to sin. It's our default nature, is it not?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lost Witness
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
31,957
10,990
NW England
✟1,383,929.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The passage is talking about individuals just as much as it's talking about unrepentant Israel, who is comprised of individuals.
Romans 9-11 is about God's relationship with the Jews - whether they are still chosen, whether the law is important etc etc.
Paul states this in the first few verses. He is deeply concerned about the Jews, and says he would even be cut off from Christ for the sake of his own people.

If you have questions about Romans 9 you need to read all of it in context; not just one verse.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,057
1,804
60
New England
✟625,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good Day,

Romans 9 – An Exegesis to Share​


 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,182
7,780
North Carolina
✟367,563.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.
Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
The middle voice of the verb in the Greek indicates they prepared themselves for destruction.

What is the objection to bearing them with patience?
Some of those who have "prepared themselves" (by rejection of Jesus Christ) may in time change their minds and "prepare themselves" for salvation.
It's happened to more than one person.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: atpollard
Upvote 0

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2017
1,825
883
63
Florida
✟130,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The voice of the verb in the Greek indicates they prepared themselves for destruction.

What is the objection to bearing them with patience?
Some of those who have "prepared themselves" (by rejection of Jesus Christ) may in time change their minds and "prepare themselves" for salvation.
It's happened to more than one person.
I love the thought, but Verse 23 says "why" in this "What if" proposed by Paul (whose point was actually less "THIS is exactly what God has done" and more "EVEN IF God is choosing to do this, God has every right to do so") ... God's "salvation", so "God's rules".
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,182
7,780
North Carolina
✟367,563.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I love the thought, but Verse 23 says "why" in this "What if" proposed by Paul (whose point was actually less "THIS is exactly what God has done" and more "EVEN IF God is choosing to do this, God has every right to do so") ... God's "salvation", so "God's rules".
God shows his wrath in the destruction of those who have fitted themselves (katartizo) for destruction (by rejection of Jesus Christ),
and makes his power known in his patience with them, for the sake of those prepared by God (proetoimazo) for his glory,
his patience giving them more time for repentance, and for which time God's justice will hold them accountable.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,617
12,059
Georgia
✟1,120,072.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

1. God is all-knowing - so He already knows who will be saved and who will be lost -
2. God "is not partial" Rom 2:11 - so there is no "arbitrary selection" on God's part. Romans 2 shows exactly how the difference between saved and lost is determine in the courts of heaven -- as Dan 7 also described it.

The focus of the text is on God showing great mercy and patience to people that He knows in the end will be lost -- (instead of just ignoring them since after all- He already knows they will end up lost)

It makes no sense to do that EXCEPT that it is done to demonstrate to those who will be saved how much God loves even their friends and family that did not go to heaven.
 
Upvote 0

friend of

A private in Gods army
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2016
5,956
4,229
provincial
✟1,014,654.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
God shows his wrath in the destruction of those who have fitted themselves (katartizo) for destruction (by rejection of Jesus Christ),
and makes his power known in his patience with them, for the sake of those prepared by God (proetoimazo) for his glory,
his patience giving them more time for repentance, and for which time God's justice will hold them accountable.
Except Romans 9:21 says
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

This suggests that God is active in the shaping process of the vessels in His hands.
 
Upvote 0

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2017
1,825
883
63
Florida
✟130,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Except Romans 9:21 says
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

This suggests that God is active in the shaping process of the vessels in His hands.
"Does not the potter have the right ..."
Does this suggest that God "is active" or that God "has the right to be active"?

As a 5 point Calvinist, I am frequently accused of going beyond what the text actually says, so this is just an effort to "verify" that the text really says what we think it says. To "rightly divide the word".
 
Upvote 0

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2017
1,825
883
63
Florida
✟130,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Romans 2 shows exactly how the difference between saved and lost is determine in the courts of heaven -- as Dan 7 also described it.
Romans 2 (which starts in Romans 1 and continues in Romans 3) concludes with everyone (this is ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION) being found GUILTY and NONE being found righteous ... hence, the Righteousness of God (beginning in Romans 3:21).
So perhaps you could expand on your point about Romans 2 and Daniel 7 ... 'cause I don't follow that part of your post. :scratch:
 
Upvote 0

Lost Witness

Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")
Nov 10, 2022
1,771
1,053
40
New York
✟142,915.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
it is one of the hardest parts of the bible to take in.

Yes, God is objectively Good, and in fact, being the creator, gets to define good.

But the chapter seems to suggest that He creates some people.... just to torture forever and have suffer.
and that is a hard pill to swallow and accept as a good and benevolent creator.
Judas Iscariot
 
  • Like
Reactions: atpollard
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,736
2,561
Perth
✟215,927.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
The passage has some context doesn't it?
It starts with this
I am speaking the truth in Christ; I am not lying. My conscience offers testimony to me in the Holy Spirit, because the sadness within me is great, and there is a continuous sorrow in my heart. For I was desiring that I myself might be anathemized from Christ, for the sake of my brothers, who are my kinsmen according to the flesh.​
Romans 9:1-3

So, saint Paul is expressing his feeling of sadness for Israel in his day because the majority have just rejected the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Next saint Paul reasons about what it means to be an Israelite, according to the promise rather than by birth.
Theirs are the fathers, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is over all things, blessed God, for all eternity. Amen. But it is not that the Word of God has perished. For not all those who are Israelites are of Israel. And not all sons are the offspring of Abraham: "For your offspring will be invoked in Isaac." In other words, those who are the sons of God are not those who are sons of the flesh, but those who are sons of the Promise; these are considered to be the offspring.​
Romans 9:5-8

Saint Paul next looks at an earlier example, that of Isaac and his sons, Jacob and Esau, where one is chosen by God and the other rejected
For this is the wording of the promise, About this time I shall return and Sarah will have a son. And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac-- before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue, not by works but by his call--she was told, The older shall serve the younger. As it is written: I loved Jacob but hated Esau.​
Romans 9:9-13
Where does that quote come from, the "I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.", part?
It comes from Malachi 1:2-3. Nearly verbatim from LXX
Here the prophet is appealing, in God’s name, to the people to remember His distinguishing and unmerited choice of Jacob over Esau to inherit the land. Not the quotation merely, but the context, is to the purpose here. (The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)​

It's interesting that Malachi uses such language and that saint Paul chooses to quote it. What is Paul's intention? Not so much to teach that God hated Esau from before he was born. That eventually comes out in Esau's descendants' behaviour towards Israel (Jacob's descendants). But at the time of their birth there was no hate expressed and no action worthy of hatred yet existed. But, saint Paul wants to point out that God's purposes are set in motion long before the reasons for them are evidenced by actions on the part of the forefathers of the nations that Malachi is writing about under the names Jacob and Esau.

Saint Paul explains
What should we say next? Is there unfairness with God? Let it not be so! For to Moses he says: "I will pity whomever I pity. And I will offer mercy to whomever I will pity." Therefore, it is not based on those who choose, nor on those who excel, but on God who takes pity. For Scripture says to the Pharaoh: "I have raised you up for this purpose, so that I may reveal my power by you, and so that my name may be announced to all the earth." Therefore, he takes pity on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.​
Romans 9:14-18
In the case of Egypt and Pharaoh God took pity on Israel enslaved in Egypt and by various signs and one terrible punishment God sets Israel free from Egyptian slavery, yet the Pharaoh of that time was unwilling to let God's people go and that Pharaoh led many of his people to death.

And now we reach the verses that you pointed to.
And so, you would say to me: "Then why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" O man, who are you to question God? How can the thing that has been formed say to the One who formed him: "Why have you made me this way?" And does not the potter have the authority over the clay to make, from the same material, indeed, one vessel unto honour, yet truly another unto disgrace? What if God, wanting to reveal his wrath and to make his power known, endured, with much patience, vessels deserving wrath, fit to be destroyed, so that he might reveal the wealth of his glory, within these vessels of mercy, which he has prepared unto glory? And so it is with those of us whom he has also called, not only from among the Jews, but even from among the Gentiles, just as he says in Hosea: "I will call those who were not my people, "my people," and she who was not beloved, "beloved," and she who had not obtained mercy, "one who has obtained mercy." And this shall be: in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," there they shall be called the sons of the living God." And Isaiah cried out on behalf of Israel: "When the number of the sons of Israel is like the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved. For he shall complete his word, while abbreviating it out of equity. For the Lord shall accomplish a brief word upon the earth." And it is just as Isaiah predicted: "Unless the Lord of hosts had bequeathed offspring, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made similar to Gomorrah."​
Romans 9:19-29
Here I think that the commentary I quoted from earlier is helpful. It says
St Paul is still, as so often before, writing as if an opponent were at his side. How vividly this suggests that he had himself experienced the conflicts of thought which indeed every earnest mind more or less encounters! But conflicts do not always end in further doubts. Difficulties, often most distressing ones, must meet us in any theory of religion that is not merely evolved from our own likings; and difficulties are not necessarily impossibilities. At one point or another we must be prepared to submit to fact and mystery.​
Saint Paul isn't propounding the system of Calvin's theology here, he is presenting the mystery of God's salvation as it is experienced by Israel and the gentiles in saint Pau's day. Some of his brethren in the nation of Israel have rejected Christ now, when Paul is writing, and he grieves for that loss but he knows it is so and he is willing to accept it on faith. He believes that with time the reasons for God's mysterious choice now (in his day) will unfold just as happened with Jacob and Esau and later with Israel and Egypt.

God's calling is a mystery - that is to say - something revealed by God but whose mechanisms and inner workings are not yet revealed. So, be content, as saint Paul advises in this passage, with the facts that are present today and rely on God's goodness, truth, mercy, and justice to show, at the last judgement, why things happened as they did.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2017
1,825
883
63
Florida
✟130,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Judas Iscariot
Romans 1:18-32 goes a LONG way to explaining HOW God works.
The Story of Joseph culminating in Genesis 50:20 goes a long way to illustrating how it actually plays out in real life.
 
Upvote 0